patrick.net

SFWoman,

I think the short answer to your question is that Whole Foods deals in scale. Even if they can get cheaper inventory locally, they tend to seek out larger contracts so they can supply all their stores at once. This why many long time organic farmers do not like Whole Foods and Costco's organic product lines. They think the mass produced organics goes against the original spirit of the organic movement.

When I grew up in Southern Maryland, I found the best supermarket for local produce was a relatively cheap local chain. Because they are relatively small and local, they tend to buy local corn, tomato and peaches that taste good and costs less!

Ironically, I find some of the freshest and cheapest vegetables from Asian grocery stores. They tend to be smaller and more local, so they often buy locally and offer the best deals to their customers.

Why own a low end condo at all? Those things depreciated like crazy during the last cycle.

Apt renting gives the renter all the inconvience of condo living (cheap construction, noisy neighbors on all sides, cramped parking) without the transaction cost.

Too many relatively responsible young people have been snookered into buying condos to get on the "homeownership ladder". Well, guess what kids, all those steps above and below you are falling away and you're stuck in the middle of a very uncomfortable position.

"you can get like twenty fuji apples at those places for $5."

Yeah, and they're not puny American supermarket apples but gargantuan monsters the size of a newborn's head. Persimmons and Asian pears are also coming onto the market, yum.

I find Costco to be a superior deal for many produce like cherries (they may not be the cheapest but they tend to be the best quality because they're pre-boxed and straight from the PNW), grapes out of season(pre-boxed and direct from Chile), pineapples (straight from Hawaii) and bagged salad mixes. That seems to be where their greater logistics capability wins out and I appreciate the lack of wholesaler involvement.

I love Costco and my only issue would be the understandable lack of local produce and ruthless inventorying (when will they bring back the Buffalo chicken tenders and the kimchi ramen?!?!?!). Oh, and figuring out what to do with 10 lbs of chicken wings.

Astrid said:
"Irradiation would help and so would careful washing immediately before consumption."

E. Coli O157:H7 infection cannot be prevented simply by washing food....that's a common misconception. The only way to effectively kill it is to cook the food item to a temperature of at least 160F.

I spent 15 years in the food business and, in a few of them, dealt with the industry fallout from the Jack in the Box outbreak in the NW. It was HORRIBLE....people died, including several kids.

If anyone likes "natural" or "organic" foods....great....just know the risks you are taking and find out what you can do to lessen the chance of infection by any number of food borne pathogens.

Maybe you don't want to know this but the most dangerous item on the menu can be iced tea.....in the large containers they use as a dispenser. Next, the ice itself....sometimes there's more fecal matter in the ice machine than the toilet. Next, I would not eat at a restaurant that utilizes gloves in food prep.....it's usually just for show to make the publice THINK it's OK.

Lot' more but I think I've ruined enough appetites for now.

Doug H,

Washing immediately before service does dramatically reduce the bacteria count, usually to a level acceptable for a healthy immune system. E. Coli infections are usually not that big of a deal unless you have a compromised immune system. The dilemma for fast food places is that they have a high proportion of young children eating their meals, so uncooked foods can be a greater danger.

Overall, I don't worry too much about food poisoning unless the food is obviously bad or if I'm already not feeling well.

I'm curious though: is one reason for the popularization of iceberg lettuce and cabbage on fastfood menu due to their relatively sanitary nature? Collards, Kales, broccoli, and non-heading lettuce are generally more nutritious, but perhaps they are also more prone to pathogen outbreaks.

ajh,

It's fall in the northern hemisphere, our genes are telling us to pack up some pounds and get ready for winter.

Is this obscure reference to a 17 year old outbreak involving dietary supplements the best evidence that GMO foods are dangerous? If so, I feel even better about eating GMO foods.

oh, NOW it's safe, but it wasn't back then... and it hasn't been hushed up by the emerging biotech industry, where GM foodstuffs still require very little testing today -- things are different now! 37 people were killed, 1500 disabled for life by shocoking immune reactions, and 5000 people were affected in some way.

go for it! and you can drink tritium recycled from nuclear plants just to prove the point!

ref the points other posters have made that 'naturally occurring' foodstuffs have effectively been tested on humans for thousands of years, whereas GM foods have not (altho it's all been said before 6 threads back). hail the brave volunteer guinea pigs! and they don't even have to pay them!

the belief is that the GM bacteria produced tiny amounts (0.01%) of up to 6 toxic byproducts, not normally produced by unmodified bacteria. how do you know your GM fish gene tomato is not going to produce some strange new compound tomatoes have never produced before? you're just gambling...

L-tryptophan essentially IS a foodstuff, and most supplements can be found in various quantities in food. besides which, the principle is pretty well exactly the same for foods as for producing supplements -- DNA operates by producing or expressing proteins to create an organism, and, besides containing the proteins and other structures, the organism functions in a certain way and produces metabolites. if anything, the controls over manufacturing supplements are stricter than for foods...

Organica News -- Social Commentary: The Wall $treet Man Returns

I'm not bothered by trace amounts of fecal matter. It's everywhere anyways, including a trillion bacterias in our bodies. I figure as long as my body does not get overwhelmed or catch something extra virulent, it's probably helping me maintain a healthy immunity for overseas trips.

Or maybe the food meme just resonates so strongly with the posters here that any excuse to talk food and they’re off and away.

they eat for solace, aj ;)

cos housing prices are depressing...

Or alternatively. Those who rent rather than buy in 2004-2006 are flush with cash and can afford to eat well.

is it true the Brassica family (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, etc..) are all derived from the one wild cabbage strain found in the mediterranean? and is it true a cauli is just a cabbage with a college education?

SFWoman,

That sounds pretty bad. I guess you'd have to fertilize those plots with compost or aged horse manure, and avoid cow manure altogether.

is it true the Brassica family (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, etc..) are all derived from the one wild cabbage strain found in the mediterranean? and is it true a cauli is just a cabbage with a college education?

No idea. I avoid being too "cozy" with the things that I eat.

RE: O157:H7

Luckily, I do not normally eat raw veggies. :)

"is it true the Brassica family (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, etc..) are all derived from the one wild cabbage strain found in the mediterranean?"

That what every account I've read has indicated. It's a very versatille family. God bless the brassica family, without it, our ancestors would go through winters with only turnips and radishes to sustain them.

Those who rent rather than buy in 2004-2006 are flush with cash and can afford to eat well.

Food budget for two can exceed the amount of a small mortgage.

DS,

Better a lifelong renter than underwater on my mortgage. I don't believe in your permanent high priced plateau, I think home prices will fall and young people who want to buy will eventually get their chance.

BTW, there are other (I daresay superior) forms of saving besides buying a house. In my opinion, people in their 20's shouldn't even be buying houses. Most haven't figured out their lifestyle or the job situation and buying prematurely would just lead to buying the wrong kinds of property (eg step ladder rental conversion condos).

SFwoman said:
"I believe Odwalla had an E. coli O157 problem not long after the Jack in the Box incident? Did they trace it to using ground drop apples?"

Although never proven, it was commonly thought to be the source. When food isn't pasteurized, all the micro-critters are growing full bore. The vast majority are so weak they don't faze our system; however, a handful are so toxic, they will kill...or at the very least...make you wish you were dead. It's BAD stuff. The reason washing doesn't work is the virulent nature of the bacteria itself......the buggers just don't want to die.

I really would not worry about raw veggies as this type of outbreak is very, very rare. You are much more likely to get sick from your own cooking/storing practices in your own kitchen...not you personally, but people in general. When I go to other people's houses and see how they prep food, many times I can't eat. Oh to go back to the days of ignorant bliss....LOL

OJ dispensers, while nasty with all the pulp and junk, it's not so much of a health risk due to the acidity of the product. If you REALLY want to be grossed out, check the nozzle on the iced tea dispenser. It's hardly ever cleaned and the oils/residue get nice and slimy....YUM! I won't drink iced tea at a restaurant and only drink bottled water....never, never, never will I order ice. I go into a restaurant, any restaurant, and within five minutes I know whethere it's safe to eat.....or HOPEFULLY safe to eat. I can tell much quicker when it's time to walk out the door!

Oregon has about the best Food Safety Program in the nation. I owned restaurants there for a while and they do a magnificent job. Their inspection report is the only one I trust.

Bon Appetite!

confession of a meat and potatoes troglodyte: i can only bear to eat cauli and broccoli with lashings of my favourite (i.e. easy) peanut sauce recipe... half peanut butter and half water with a dash of soy sauce and a teaspoon of raw sugar, stir on med heat for 2 minutes...

For requiem and any other cool weather vegetable planters

http://www.mastergardeners.org/picks/index.html

astrid Says:
Better a lifelong renter than underwater on my mortgage. I don’t believe in your permanent high priced plateau, I think home prices will fall and young people who want to buy will eventually get their chance.

we just don't know for sure tho, do we? there are now nothing down loans, 40 and 50 year mortgages, and beg the parents to go guarantor market-based solutions, apart from the prospect of a cooling... and the market is currently doing its best to create a new two-class societal structure of landlords and tenants, aided by the gurus and the RE industry... unless the hearings in DC go well...

BTW, there are other (I daresay superior) forms of saving besides buying a house. In my opinion, people in their 20’s shouldn’t even be buying houses. Most haven’t figured out their lifestyle or the job situation and buying prematurely would just lead to buying the wrong kinds of property (eg step ladder rental conversion condos).

hmm, yes. these are the comparisons of Joe A and Fred B where one buys a house and the other rents and buys shares or similar instead etc to see how they perform respectively. the problem is that the rent doesn't go into equity, and also that the real world population of renters, taken on average, has lower income and little or no spare money to invest in shares. and the rent-paying trap sometimes means that first home buyers are never able to save a 20% deposit, altho they could probably meet repayments. there has unfortunately also been more like 18 years of boom here since the 1987 stock market crash fallout, not just 2 or 3... but yes, if you look at how much interest is paid to the bank, that is also 'dead money'...

While abroad, insist on hot water (straight from a kettle sitting on a burning stove) or carbonate beverages. I find going to China provides ample excuses to drink beer (for one thing, it's much cheaper than bottled water)

Doug H,

Thanks for all that knowledge. Eek! I usually drink ice water. Maybe I should switch to bottled water in the future.

Jon Says:
Interesting/scary/sad blog post about GDP growth with/without mortgage extraction.

that's perfect, jon, i've been waiting for that -- will send a copy to the smug national treasurer who claims 'economic success' and 'sound economic management' when GDP was high during the boom -- he's gone quiet now GDP is strangely flat...

in the long run, we're all dead...

DS,

In China, where rent is extremely high compared to average wage, guess what people do? They live with their parents and save money, even after they're married. I find that over the long run, people do find rational ways to respond to high housing prices. Extracting money from the proles might be easy in a short run frenzy, but the proles do wise up eventually.

For example, if my boyfriend or I rented a 4 bdrm/3 bath home in a nice area or each leased a Maserati, then we'll never save enough money to buy. But we intentionally live below our means to save money, even though that means putting up with noisy neighbors and a lack of storage space. Sure, we can't own if we merely live within our means, but we're smart enough to live below our means and save. And we're flexible! If rents go up unreasonably, we'd consider roommates or living in someone's basement. If it gets insanely bad, we'll even consider living with parents/sibling.

You speak as if people are doomed to these awful housing destinies. They're not! They can be thrifty and frugal and carefully watch their money and plan ahead. I think if the government get involved and too many safety nets are erected, that'll just force people to be less involved in their personal finances. After all, why bother working and saving if the government ends up taxing my hard earned savings to direct its pet housing projects?

I also don't think current prices are sustainable and I think real prices will dip down to be quite affordable in another ten to fifteen years. Patience and good financial managment will be rewarded.

@DS

Nobody has to buy but there are always some people who needs to sell. If, as you describe, no one can afford to buy anymore, then prices will adjust down until someone can afford to buy.

Are you working out of some economic model where the laws of supply demand bear no relation to how they're presented in classical economics?

HidingintheBronx Says:

Where I live local produce is not really ever an option. I suppose there is the Stone Barn farmers market - owned by David Rockerfeller, I kid you not - but I refuse to go there.

This is not exactly produce, but I'm curious - have you been to the Italian food stores on Arthur Ave? From what I've read, the food there sounds delicious.

ajh says:"My genes tell my body to pack up some (more) pounds all year round :( ."

Yeah, mine too. Damn thrifty genes. Why can't I have spendthrift genes?

This is for DinOR:

From the Money Message Board,

"I currently have my house on the market for $264,900. I live in a small popular town in Oregon. Our home is a 3bed 2.5 bath, large corner lot, rv parking, fenced yards, 2054 sqft and it was built at the end of 2004. We have had several people look at the home but no bites yet. Its frustrating to see houses smaller than mine going for a few thousand less. We have already dropped our price over $10k. We have had several realtors tell us that our home is priced perfect and its just a matter of time. Will the market pick up before we get so discouraged that we take it off the market??"

Now, this guy is going to get very discouraged if you don't come to his rescue! Where's that OR "love thy neighbor" spirit?....just in and help this Oregonian.....ROFL

10 to 15 years wait may be too long for many who will lose their savings window of opportunity and will not be able to get a 30 year mortgage due to age. i personally think 5 years is more realistic to see things unwind anyhow, with what we're seeing, although different countries may vary. i would prefer to see a 'social guarantee' of decent affordable housing provided by govt somehow (including the notion of a housing 'credit' system), altho, again, your mileage will vary depending on the conceptualisation of the welfare state in any one country.

and, a govt safety net is a safety net. i can't think of too many safety nets in the modern welfare state that manifestly and profoundly fail most of their intended beneficiaries. e.g. unemployment benefits, child care payments, public housing, old age pensions, universal health care, even public education.

of course you can live with your parents, get them to go guarantor or provide equity (if they will), get a 50 year mortgage, etc, but people are more likely to fall through the cracks this way; there are very many failures of the conventional market in housing...

Jon,

I agree with all your pet peeves except for GPS. I have an innate sense of misdirection and a GPS would be very helpful. Bottled water is great for certain occasions (like company picnics) but 90% of time they can be replaced with a nalgene bottle and tap water.

Most bottle water are sourced from municipal water sources anyhow. They just filter (usually to get rid of the chlorine) and add some minerals to improve taste. Most of the mfgr costs goes into transportation and marketing.

Come to think of it, SUVs are useful for traversing unpaved roads with rocky or soft sand conditions. It's quite handy when travelling in Southern Utah - though not nearly as necessary as the cautious rangers would like you to believe it to be.

One type of "sob story" that I'm really really sick of hearing are jerks who bought a place for let's say $300K and the property reached a peak selling price of $1M in 2005. Forward to 2006, the sellers say they MUST sell but think any selling price below $850K is giving it away.

Geesh Mr. and Mrs. POS Seller, if $849K is giving it away, then what do you call your original purchase price? Did you steal the house? Did you rob the house? Did you burgle the house? --- Do these sellers really believe they deserve above a certain level of appreciation because they lived in the house for X number of years?

I think I can define non-consumerist as being resistant to the siren calls of marketers. I make a point to telling every sales person who approaches me that I buy when I decide to buy and after I've personally done research on my choices. I also use this line to get rid of calls for donations.

Nobody else is gonna tell me what my personal utility function ought to be.

jumping on the thread late here, but if you can possibly catch a screening of Mike Judge's Idiocracy, do so (which actually may be impossible now). It's scathing but hilarious, extrapolating a world of the future based on some of the current trends of our modern society. Unfortunately, it's been buried by the very studio that financed it (fox) who were contractually required to release it in some limted form. tasty morsels: the future president of the united states is an ultimate wrestling champion/adult film star, starbucks is a brothel, costco has a law school, and the most popular show on television consists of a guy being repeatedly beaten in the nads. and that's really the tip of the iceberg.

Jon Says I would not mind at all if the following disappeared from our commercial culture:

It sounds like Jon and I would get along…

> 1. SUVs - You’re not sporty, you’re not active, you’re not sexy.

What is up with the Range Rover “Sport” the BMW X5 Si and the Porsche Cayenne Turbo. SUVs are trucks for hauling and towing stuff and will never be a sporty car (even if it says “Sport” on the back). I don’t see why people spend $100K on a supercharged SUV with Brembo brakes…

> 2. Coffee Chains - For some reason paying $3 for water
> strained through ground up beans is very fashionable….

What is up with all the losers who pay $10 for a “Mega Velti Half Calf Lo-Fat Chi Tea Latte” and a couple scones (what I pay for lunch all week eating a couple $99 value menu cheeseburgers a day at McDonalds) and sit around playing with their iBook listening to their iPod. I have never seen a single one of these people talk to anyone else, so they can’t be doing it to get laid…

> 3. 50-screen movie theaters - “Oh no! We missed the start of
> “Lady in the Lake!” “Don’t worry, it plays again in three minutes

Look the screen is smaller than Tony’s Dad’s home theatre. In SF you can’t go to a movie without at least one cell phone ringing…

> 4. Sh#tty blockbuster mega-explodo-movies that are 150
> million in special effects combined with a 15-cents-off-
> hemoriod-cream coupon’s worth of story. I can’t wait
> for people to be too broke to afford this “culture”.

The review of Tokyo Drift (that just came out on DVD) in the Chron yesterday reminds me of the way I would review most movies:

“This movie is about a racing fool, literally, who is supposed to be a great driver, but can't get into a car without totaling it.”

“It's never explained why the most beautiful women in Japan should want to hang out in a parking lot. That's just one of the mysteries of the East.”

“The problem is, even an hour into the movie, Sean has no plan and no direction, just a blind desire to smash up automobiles and steal a mobster's girlfriend. There's no plan, no vision for the future, no nothing, just a goofy compulsion.”

Another sign that most Americans are retarded “Jackass II” is the number one movie in the country”…

> 5. ipod culture - it’s an MP3 player. Get over it. No, no
> you’re not a carefree silhouette dancing the night away.

Does anyone need 40 gigs of songs at one time? I can drive from SF to NY without hearing the same song twice with the little 2 gig chip that slides in to my Treo (or any other PDA)…

> 6. “Lunchables” and other stupid pre-packaged kid food…

My favorite working mom food is the pre-made Jello (spend $10 since you are too lazy to add water to powder and stick it in the fridge for a while)…

> 7. GPS Gadgets - Useful for a small minority and totally
> absurd for everyone else.

I have thought about getting a SD card GPS for the Treo, but then I remind myself that I almost never get lost and I don’t have the time to figure out how to use the thing…

> 8. Gyms and Fitness Centers/Culture.

I’ve been going to the gym a few days a week for over 20 years and laugh every year when the fat people (in new workout outfits) join each Jan. and are never seen again…

> 9. Bottled Water - Talk about selling ice to the Eskimos.

Even worse than bottles water in SF (with great tap water) is bottled water in Tahoe (with amazing tap water)…

Doug H,

Thanks for that very telling post! If I've said it once.........

I suppose this blows holes in the "Interesting, WRONG.... but... interesting" delusion most/nearly all Oregonians labor under! If they're selling a 2,054 sq. ft. home for $264,900 (that they bought in 2004) what is wrong with this picture? Most car leases are as long if not longer so why is it after only 2 freaking years it is so frustrating that you can't sell it at the drop of a hat? WHY would you be selling it? It's on a corner lot, has RV parking and is only 2 years old! Evidently this small OR town is not as "popular" as you'd thought?

Talk to old time realtors here. These back water OR towns "popularity" changes like the wind! The slightest change in commute-ability and they slide into obscurity for another decade or two. Anyway, why are they selling after ONLY 2 years? They've lowered their price by 10k? This may shock a lot of CA's here but my guess is they can no longer afford it (if they ever really could). Thanks Doug, do you have the link? I'd love to follow that one.

George,

I had CNBC on in the background and find myself wondering the same things. It's a very conflicted picture here. The good news is, now that ALL of the momentum is out of housing even lower mort. rates are failing to entice new buyers! Better still is that the "re-set land mine" that MB's very purposefully set out for FB's will not play out in their favor. For FB's this is very much a day to day situation and if their MP didn't go up that month, no need to re-fi to a fixed (yet anyway).

Even a BMW with snow tires was not safe in the hands of my dad.

BMW is rear-drive, right?

I don't think I can drive in the snow either. :(