patrick.net

interestingly, the mayor of the city is a keen advocate for extending a light rail link passing through said central station and through the middle of the city, running north-south right through the elongated CBD. it's currently set up almost like a 'toy' where it originally ran mainly from central straight to the casino and 'exhibition centre' and little else, hmm. they then extended it to a couple of suburbs beyond to wring some usefulness from it. the state govt however is not convinced that a single rail line is going to be useful or flexible enough to cover the needs of CBD travellers vs the bus network -- they see it as just another expensive 'solution' and fixed rail line on top of the underground loop, a near-useless monorail, and an existing bus system. it's a tough call... melbourne still operates a terrific grid of trams, but then they have the layout to do it...

doc1 Says:

"High speed rail is a great concept. London to Paris in 2 hours very soon right? It will do wonders for their economies"

There's been a high-speed Eurostar rail link London-Paris, London-Brussels, London-Amsterdam for over a decade. Having been out of the UK for almost 7 years now, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to find that other European capital cities have been added.

speedingpullet, eburbed was being wry before with his 'freedom' comment...

Published Saturday, December 9, 2006, by the San Mateo Daily Journal
By Keith Kreitman

When Judge Quentin L. Kopp tells me at age 78, as the newly
elected chairman of the California High-Speed Rail Authority
, he has finally reached the
apex of his career, I sit up and listen...

From San Francisco to Los Angeles, alone, he tells me, with stops
along the way, it will be only two-and-a-half hours at 50 bucks one
way, with guaranteed reserved seats. (Where were you, Judge Kopp,
when I languished for nine to 11 hours on Amtrak for the same trip
at even more money?

The total cost for the project is expected to be $33 billion, one of
the most expensive in world history. Yet, even though the original
funding will be from 30-year general obligation bonds, the first of
which will hit the ballots in 2008, the rail line will be privately
operated and without any government subsidies. Based on the
experiences of other nations with such lines, Kopp anticipates
enough running profits to pay off these bonds in 10 years.

Things are already in motion, he tells me, with 14.3 million in the
works to begin engineering and to set up right-of-way acquisition
procedures (except on our Peninsula) and 199 millions for newly
awarded (through June 30 2013) project managers Parson Brinckerhoff
Quade and Douglas. The state budget for 2007-8 is expected to bring
in 103 millions to actually begin buying rights of way. And 2008,
hopefully, brings the votes for a $9.95 billion bond starter for
construction.

random user Says:

> As to a high speed train, I’d love to see one from
> SF to LA. But I don’t know if it’s practical or not.

Let’s say 400 miles of track with a right of way ¼ mile wide. That is 100 square miles or 64,000 acres. If you figure an average price of $200K an acre it will cost about $12 Billion for the land plus another few Billion for legal costs to take the land through eminent domain. Lets call it $15 Billion for the land.

The new 5.4 mile 3rd St. light rail in SF is about a quarter Billion over budget and will probably come in at just under $200mm per mile. It is my guess that with economy of scale that the state could build the high speed rail for half the cost of SF or $40 Billion.

If we add in cost overruns and inflation it will probably cost about $70 Billion for a high speed rail from SF to LA (or about $2,000 from every man, woman and child in the state). Since rail will not pay for itself we will have to subsidize it for years to come…

>>Rail is is amazingly efficient at transporting bulk, time insensitive material. People are neither. Rail transit is stupid. Rail transport is efficient and necessary.

It's been argued that there are no profitable models in the business of transporting people from anywhere to anywhere.

-Cruise ships don't count because they're not really transporting people, rather providing them with an entertainment experience.

-Airlines as an industry has done nothing but lost enormous amounts of shareholder capital.

“If a capitalist had been present at Kittyhawk back in the early 1900s, he should have shot Orville Wright. He would have saved his progeny money. But seriously, the airline business has been extraordinary. It has eaten up capital over the past century like almost no other business because people seem to keep coming back to it and putting fresh money in. - Warren B

Cars are the only profitable means of transportation - at the cost of everyone via time and money. It works because it's so inefficient.

Furthermore, the current public transportation in the US was devastated when the civil rights attorneys no longer allowed law enforcement to properly police public spaces.

Yeah that's why the subways are empty in NY. Oh wait.

Anyone considered the possibility for the government to ship in massive foreign labor to do major infrastructure construction? Laborers can be housed in temporary tents/domes on the construction site.

Since much of the inflation-sensitive cost is lobor, this can be a real solution.

What is "profit" anyway?

In a zero sum game of life, where do profits come from?

I don't know about a right of way ¼ mile wide. that would be exaggerating by about 10x I would think -- not that FAB is known for doing that ;)

the right of way could virtually be 10 metres wide, even allowing for transit in both directions...

In a zero sum game of life, where do profits come from?

largely from fleecing philippines villagers for gold, copper and hardwood reources in 99:1 profit-sharing relationships in the present, I believe...

and swapping beads for land, and other such, in the past...

Different Sean Says:

speedingpullet, eburbed was being wry before with his ‘freedom’ comment…

LOL! No $hit... ;-)

Still, its not every day that I get to use a version of my favourite all-time joke as a reply...

On a related note - the UK is starting to re-vamp its antiquated rail system - especially for freight. Plans are afoot to add spur lines to larger manufacturing outlets, so that freight can be easliy transported across the UK and into Europe. Planners are finally figuring out that on islands the size of the United Kingdom, road tansport is slow, expensive and wasteful.

As Robert Cote points out, freight rail is still the most cost effective way of getting stuff from A to B.

But I imagine there will be similar issues with a high speed train.

No such issues with Acela. Even $150/RT to LA on HST can be very attractive. But even at that price, it is difficult to break-even.

If you figure an average price of $200K an acre it will cost about $12 Billion for the land plus another few Billion for legal costs to take the land through eminent domain.

On the bright side, land along the route will get a boost in value. So new suburbs can be established and new condo communities can be built. The sale of housing can pay for some of the costs.

Let's say 10000 units can be build directly above or around each HST station. At an average of $100K profit per unit and 5 of these hubs, $5B can be brought in.

HARM Says:

This is probably going to be the transportation of the future (if they can ever get FAA approval):

It even gets decent mileage (est. 20 MPG) which will no doubt improve over time. And since you will not be stuck for hours in gridlock, it will save gas over any ground-based car, even today’s most efficient hybrid.

I see the last item on the features list is 'emergency parachutes' -- that's a good inclusion, given that they'll probably needed a lot as time goes by.

Unfortunately, 20 MPG is crap -- it's the same as a present-day non-hybrid motor car. A road vehicle could get 500 MPG if properly designed... even the Prius gets about 55 MPG in a combination city/highway test...

Couldn't you just run the rail right up the 5 fwy?

First, rail is the second most effective transport mode with pipelines being the big winners and oceangoing cargo being the third place coming on fast.

BTW, according to some reports, Artic ice will be gone by 2040. This should open new sea-routes that are presently frozen.

See, global warming is good!

Couldn’t you just run the rail right up the 5 fwy?

HST cannot go up and down Grapevine Pass.

See, global warming is good!

See, global warming (if such thing exists) is good!

According to the most reliable and latest reports Antartic ice is net accreting.

See, no global warming!

Please save the lame attempts at distraction for appropriate threads.

Huh? If I wanted distractions we would be talking about sushi already.

Global warming appears to be a reality, as noted by glaciers and snow lines receding further every year (also known as Global Pattern Baldness). The jury is out on whether Antarctic ice is increasing or decreasing at present. Warmer oceans melt it, precipitation adds to it.

I assure you, if temperatures continue to increase, eventually Antarctic ice will be gone. In the age of the dinosaurs, the average global temperature was 16° higher, the seas were 200 ft higher, and there were no global icecaps at all...

Different Sean, atomic/rocket technology is courtesy of Hungarian trained scientists (Szillard, Edward teller, Neumann), and a few Germans and Italians. Oppenheimer? a real lightweight who likely colluded with the Communists. But my point is that such a systme would have to be run very autocratically outside the scope of political correctness and beyond the reach of trial/civil rights attorneys so that the best/brightest could run it. Furthermore for it to be available to the masses, the safety of its citizens must be guaranteed. (Not in this politically correct society.)

The I-5 and CA-99 become Autobahns. The rest is an exercise for the reader.

First, the I-5/CA-152 cloverleaf needs some collector-distributor roads.

very contradictory stuff, 'doc1'. what are you a doc of, by the way?

oppenheimer was a 'real' lightweight compared to...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

I would have thought the involvement of trial attorneys is one way of safeguarding the public reliably... isn't that after all how the whole OH&S and public safety movement began? fear of law suits?

and so on...

First the northern terminus is Oakland...

See. They always do this. Southern terminus is probably Burbank or equivalent.

RC: First the northern terminus is Oakland…

Bruce: See. They always do this. Southern terminus is probably Burbank or equivalent.

Common folks, don't believe everything RC tells you.
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/route/default.asp

20MPG is indeed nothing special

It is fine for me if it is better than 10mpg.

@Peter P,

The future:

1. Hover cars
2. Teleportation
3. Time tunnel

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!

Human teleportation would be wonderful, though I think I'd wait until 2nd or 3rd generation technology to try it. After they've worked out all the really major bugs, like accidentally teleporting you into a wall, or "losing" body parts during transit.

The route map looks just like the old Trans Europe Express.

The TEE dallied around the Benelux countries for a while, tarried at both Cologne and Bonn, passed through Switzerland like a streak, and then stopped at every chicken coop between the Italian border and Florence. Express cum local.

Case closed.

Human teleportation would be wonderful, though I think I’d wait until 2nd or 3rd generation technology to try it.

I will NEVER trust human teleportation. There are serious philosophical problems associated with it.

I do want some teleported sea urchins though.

yes. of course, we all know that these would in all reality be limited use vehicles for things like snow patrols or emergency rescue or possibly some sort of limited executive travel option, as long as people were prepared to do all the pilots training. this thing is the equivalent of a single-engined cessna, with all the restrictions that go with operating a light plane. clearly you could not just back one of these things out of your suburban garage and take off (and land at the shopping centre 1 km away), as it's a little hard to do lane markings in the sky. and I think single-engined light planes are the most dangerous class of fixed-wing aircraft in terms of accidents?

I think the time is coming when there won't be many petrol-driven vehicles around anymore, and 20MPG (or 10) will be seen as an impossible resource hog, all ethanol and Avgas etc will have to come from organic sources, electric motors and hydrogen fuel cells will be all the rage, and so on...

“losing” body parts during transit

I am very sorry sir, we are unable to find your left kidney at the moment. It may still be in the quantum stream. Do you have a claim check, sir?

HARM,

I remember a friend showed me the Moller Skycar years ago. It's amazing that they've actually stuck with it and delivered on the proto-type! One of my big concerns is that unlike a rotary wing aircraft (helicopter) these VSTOL (Very Short Take-Off and Landing) gizmos have low intakes. Commercial and military aircraft operate in a very controlled environment. Even still they ingest the occaisonal "cotter pin" and b/c of the sheer RPM's quickly disintegrate. How will they work around that when landing in a parking lot or your own driveway?

Well there's a thought in dealing w/those pesky tricycles and skateboards when coming home!

apparently massive breakthroughs have been made in teleportation lately. star trek transporters can't be far away.

i might settle for teleconferencing for the moment. i'd be happy enough if they could do 3D hologram teleconferencing through increased bandwidth and processing capability...

I am very sorry sir, we are unable to find your left kidney at the moment. It may still be in the quantum stream. Do you have a claim check, sir?

Yeah, I still have nightmares about 'Brundlefly'....

...though being genetically spliced with Jeff Goldbloom could be sorta cool....

this thing is the equivalent of a single-engined cessna, with all the restrictions that go with operating a light plane. clearly you could not just back one of these things out of your suburban garage and take off (and land at the shopping centre 1 km away), as it’s a little hard to do lane markings in the sky. and I think single-engined light planes are the most dangerous class of fixed-wing aircraft in terms of accidents?

Actually, it's designed to fly on radar and GPS-guided autopilot. No pilot's license necessary, and no input from passengers/drivers while in the air. The idea is, you taxi (on the ground) to a local airport or parking lot with FAA designated "skycar" area, punch in your destination and the autopilot software takes over. As such, it's definitely better suited for longer hauls, not short trips. This leaves a gap which highly fuel efficient ground models (such as the ones you listed) would be helpful.

there is the potential for responsible use of some sort of VSTOL car-plane in rural and remote settings, as SFWoman points out, although it would have to be air-traffic controlled somehow. (ATC stops you being brave and free and is therefore unconstitutional)

for instance, it might be a reasonable concept for a 'flying doctor' type service. but as soon as you have more than one of these things in an uncontrolled airspace, you have problems...

I would settle for an anti-gravity machine with no moving parts, as long as it can never fail and the force field doesn't give you cancer...

GPS-guided autopilot

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06346/744379-96.stm