patrick.net

CSC says

There’s no great chasm between the two, it’s a matter of degree, what can be proven, what kind of money/connections the company accused has, whether it’s in state or federal court as state laws vary, etc

One is against the law, one isn't. I consider that to be a pretty large chasm.

davidcheung says

What about the RE agents who spent lots of time driving their clients to see houses and got no where and not getting paid? They have to make a living too.

Like any other salesperson in any other industry in our economy. You win some you lose some! Thats the cost of doing business!

Why do you guys hate realtors so much? They are salespeople.

Perhaps one noteworthy distinction is that a real estate agent's profits have been effectively nationalized, thanks to the FHA, Fannie/Freddie, Ginnie Mae, FDA, etc. etc. Also, not all salespeople (such as the electronics store clerk referred to above) are backed by one of the largest lobbyist groups on the Hill.

One is against the law, one isn’t. I consider that to be a pretty large chasm.

Right: One deserves three hots & a cot, and the other, a swift kick in the dick.

Why do you guys hate realtors so much? They are salespeople.

LOL! You will find salespeople in many other smallest to largest employers/industries, like in SV, have the most strictest guidelines over behavior and pricing when dealing with customers. Any deviation from the policies is severly delt with. So I would not call them your typical "salesperson". REA certainly go well beyond norms and behavior from what I have seen.

Sorry, but criminal defense lawyers and govt prosecutors make their living arguing what is and isn't violation of a law, and to what degree. That has everything to do with whether they get off or not, or whether they have a short sentence or a longer one. Even if something's not a crime, there are still civil (as opposed to criminal) laws where ordinarly people bring suit for damages.

There are many unethical, risky business practices that are not criminal but that done in mass amounts cause damage to not just customers but the country. The economic crash is just one example. Many instances of both criminal and civil law violations go entirely unpunished, but they are damaging nonetheless.

tatupu70 says

One is against the law, one isn’t. I consider that to be a pretty large chasm.

CSC says

Sorry, but criminal defense lawyers and govt prosecutors make their living arguing what is and isn’t violation of a law, and to what degree. That has everything to do with whether they get off or not, or whether they have a short sentence or a longer one. Even if something’s not a crime, there are still civil (as opposed to criminal) laws where ordinarly people bring suit for damages.
There are many unethical, risky business practices that are not criminal but that done in mass amounts cause damage to not just customers but the country. The economic crash is just one example. Many instances of both criminal and civil law violations go entirely unpunished, but they are damaging nonetheless.

Huh? Most of what you wrote there is not relevant to the discussion.. Are you trying to argue that promoting real estate is unethical? Pointing out the positives is a crime?

thomas.wong1986 says

LOL! You will find salespeople in many other smallest to largest employers/industries, like in SV, have the most strictest guidelines over behavior and pricing when dealing with customers. Any deviation from the policies is severly delt with. So I would not call them your typical “salesperson”. REA certainly go well beyond norms and behavior from what I have seen

And there are salespeople in all industries that disregard those guidelines. Which is why most people realize that they need to look out for themselves first and foremost. Real estate agents are like any other salespeople.

tatupu70 says

And there are salespeople in all industries that disregard those guidelines. Which is why most people realize that they need to look out for themselves first and foremost. Real estate agents are like any other salespeople.

Nope, REA are not like other salespeople. Deals in other industries like the ones in SV are reviewed and any side deals will get you fired. Do you want a crash course in Revenue Recognition? Most sales orginzations have several layers of quote-to-contracts reviews and approvals. But you will find RE offices have no such controls so they have no accountability. Who audits sales contracts in the RE offices and reviews their books? No one! They would fail SOX 404 right off. Go ahead and talk to your employers Controller. May well explain it to you!

thomas.wong1986 says

Nope, REA are not like other salespeople. Deals in other industries like the ones in SV are reviewed and any side deals will get you fired. Do you want a crash course in Revenue Recognition? Most sales orginzations have several layers of quote-to-contracts reviews and approvals. But you will find RE offices have no such controls so they have no accountability. Who audits sales contracts in the RE offices and reviews their books? No one! They would fail SOX 404 right off. Go ahead and talk to your employers Controller. May well explain it to you!

When did we get into SOX? And what does it have to do with anything?? We're talking about whether Realtors are like salespeople.. Side deals will get you fired in real estate as well. Those are not allowed. What do you think realtors do?

I responded to your comment about crime. Sorry if you don't like the answer. As for real estate hype "pointing out the positives," all I can say is ROTFLMAO!

tatupu70 says

CSC says

Sorry, but criminal defense lawyers and govt prosecutors make their living arguing what is and isn’t violation of a law, and to what degree. That has everything to do with whether they get off or not, or whether they have a short sentence or a longer one. Even if something’s not a crime, there are still civil (as opposed to criminal) laws where ordinarly people bring suit for damages.
There are many unethical, risky business practices that are not criminal but that done in mass amounts cause damage to not just customers but the country. The economic crash is just one example. Many instances of both criminal and civil law violations go entirely unpunished, but they are damaging nonetheless.

Huh? Most of what you wrote there is not relevant to the discussion.. Are you trying to argue that promoting real estate is unethical? Pointing out the positives is a crime?

CSC says

I responded to your comment about crime. Sorry if you don’t like the answer. As for real estate hype “pointing out the positives,” all I can say is ROTFLMAO!

OK--thanks for the 80s AOL reference there. You responded all right... It was completely off topic and mostly rambling, but it was a response I guess. If you want to continue to feel victimized, you have my permission. I realize it's too much to ask you to do your own research and determine on your own what a house is worth before putting a bid on it. I mean--if someone else tells you it's time to buy, how can you not follow their advice???!!?? That would require you to think for yourself...

Still ROFLMAO. I'm not buying, so I'm not putting a bid in on anything. The research I've done over the past 10 years was not with the goal of homebuying in mind. It was more along the lines of gathering evidence. With what I found that LAST thing I'd have done was buy into the sham.

tatupu70 says

CSC says

I responded to your comment about crime. Sorry if you don’t like the answer. As for real estate hype “pointing out the positives,” all I can say is ROTFLMAO!

OK–thanks for the 80s AOL reference there. You responded all right… It was completely off topic and mostly rambling, but it was a response I guess. If you want to continue to feel victimized, you have my permission. I realize it’s too much to ask you to do your own research and determine on your own what a house is worth before putting a bid on it. I mean–if someone else tells you it’s time to buy, how can you not follow their advice???!!?? That would require you to think for yourself…

Contrary to "experts" its not a good time to buy.

sorry for the offtopic - but I am hoping O.O. or one of the old regulars (if they're still around) can help me with some information.

I am looking for reliable gold dealers in the Palo Alto/Menlo Park area. Want to buy physical, and don't want to go via kitco or tulving online. Thanks in advance.

I sold a bit of gold to Mish metals in Menlo Park (not related to Mish the blogger). They seemed relatively honest, though there's a big buy/sell spread as usual.

http://www.mishinternational.com/index.html

tatupu70 says

When did we get into SOX? And what does it have to do with anything?? We’re talking about whether Realtors are like salespeople.. Side deals will get you fired in real estate as well. Those are not allowed. What do you think realtors do?

Tatupu, you said "REA are like other salespeople"... that is wrong. Other sales people in other industries are under complex internal control guidelines. Side deals and verbal promises in RE firms are simply ignored because they are not accountable or enforceable by no one. They couldnt care less. Compare that to any other local corporate entity small and large where deals are translated to revenue and revenue is scrutinized by third party audits. And the third party auditors who is not an employee of the company is accountable, not to the managers of that entity, but the owners, which may be VCs or shareholders. Very often the auditors do contact customers independently to verify every aspect of deals. If the deals had other verbal promises or 'tactics' like we often hear with REA, "you can always refinance, great schools, prices will always go up" then that deal is tainted and revenue for that entity will be compromised. The heads of that corporation will be held responsible for those tainted deals. That is SOX in a nut shell.

The middle aged women who dominate the REA ranks would never cut it in real industries.

thomas.wong1986 says

If the deals had other verbal promises or ‘tactics’ like we often hear with REA, “you can always refinance, great schools, prices will always go up” then that deal is tainted and revenue for that entity will be compromised

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? Great schools is a verbal promise? Prices will always go up--salespeople in other industries don't say that? Come on. Your comparison is really more for salespeople at small companies vs. large companies. Yes, larger companies have checks and balances and keep their salespeople on a tighter leash. But there are many, many private companies where salespeople have a very long rein to do what they need to do to get business. Don't tell me you've never heard of guys taking purchasing manager to strip clubs--at a company I used to work at they sent out an intern to the bank to get $200 in ones for the night's entertainment. That shit happens all the time. You need to get out more.

tatupu70 says

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds

You will get the same response from your corporate controller of your company.

tatupu70 says

Yes, larger companies have checks and balances and keep their salespeople on a tighter leash. But there are many, many private companies where salespeople have a very long rein to do what they need to do to get business.

Nope private or public, they are accountable to their shareholders and very often they use auditors to verify ALL deals. My company is private and we have PWC as our auditors and they review our deals equally as it was a public clients. There is no difference.

tatupu70 says

Don’t tell me you’ve never heard of guys taking purchasing manager to strip clubs–at a company I used to work at they sent out an intern to the bank to get $200 in ones for the night’s entertainment. That shit happens all the time. You need to get out more.

No it doesnt happen at all around here. That is why we have policies prohibiting such behavorior. Its not considered a business expense. If anything that would be a warning sign. Yes, I have seen people get fired for similar indiscretions.

thomas.wong1986 says

No it doesnt happen at all around here. That is why we have policies prohibiting such behavorior. Its not considered a business expense. If anything that would be a warning sign. Yes, I have seen people get fired for similar indiscretions.

Like I said--you need to get out more...

I sold a bit of gold to Mish metals in Menlo Park (not related to Mish the blogger). They seemed relatively honest, though there’s a big buy/sell spread as usual.
http://www.mishinternational.com/index.html

thank you patrick