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Ben Jones & Patrick: Psychics or Super-Geniuses?


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2007 Mar 6, 9:13am   19,372 views  179 comments

by HARM   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Patrick's alter ego? Ben Jones - mathematical genius?

As the rolling bubble crash gathers steam, and even formerly hostile MSM sources now reluctantly admit the bubble --and its bursting-- is undeniably real, one question remains: how did people like Patrick Killelea and Ben Jones correctly predict all this so accurately beforehand?

Nearly two years ago, Ben and Patrick founded their now-famous blogs, dedicated to the national housing bubble. They boldly predicted its demise as "inevitable" long, long before most industry experts would even admit the bubble even existed. Now events are unfolding almost like clockwork, almost exactly as predicted:

  • Exhaustion and unaffordability leads first to falling sales & rising inventories, but very sticky prices (at first).
  • Inability to continue flipping and/or serially refinancing forces flippers and over-leveraged FBs to try to exit, spiking inventories and gradually un-sticking prices in successive waves of option-ARM resets.
  • Failure to indefinitely to hide default/foreclosure/repurchase losses off the balance sheets forces many sub-prime operators and MSB issuers out of business, drying up liquidity.
  • The MEW-ATM shutdown spills over into the general economy and either triggers a general recession, or at the very least, localized recessions in extreme-bubble regions.
  • The crash slowly grinds away over years, eroding homedebtor equity via a combination of inflation and nominal price drops, until the price-rent/price-income equilibrium is finally restored.
  • Finally, the rolling crash becomes obvious even to the most clueless FB and the cheerleading MSM. Newsweek issues it's "Housing: Worst Investment Ever!" cover story, close to the exact market bottom.
  • My questions: how could such seemingly average Joes ever predict such events when the brightest, most highly paid industry experts could not? I mean, David Lereah went from "no bubble" to "correction's over" in like 30 seconds flat! If the danger signs were so obvious, then why didn't we hear about them beforehand from the NAR... the Fed... Wall Street? It's not as if these frequently quoted (and rarely challenged) "industry experts" could possibly have known about this mess beforehand, but just kept it to themselves for some reason. Like, that's just conspiratorial, tinfoil-hat wing-nuttery, right?

    So, if the only way to perceive an asset/credit bubble is after-the-fact (as Sir Alan Greenspan has asserted), then how could Ben and Patrick possibly have known about it that far back? Are they psychic? Are these guys prescient modern-day Nostradamus-es? Or, are they financial super-wizards --real-life Hari Seldons-- who can accurately predict the future with mathematical precision, but posing as regular guys? If the housing bubble was so impossible to predict, even with access to the very best market data and cutting-edge computing power (as the experts insist it was), then how could two ordinary working-class stiffs manage to pull off such a feat by themselves?

    Should we be concerned that Patrick and Ben are some form of genetically mutated super-geniuses hiding in plain sight?? How else could they possibly have foreseen the unforeseeable?

    Spooky, isn't it? :roll:

    Discuss, enjoy...
    HARM

    #housing

    « First        Comments 13 - 52 of 179       Last »     Search these comments

    13   HARM   2007 Mar 6, 10:49am  

    @SFWoman,

    "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
    --Erasmus

    14   astrid   2007 Mar 6, 10:52am  

    "it doesn’t take a psychic or super-genius to see that 1 + 1 does not = 11."

    I can't wait for DS's take down of that Eurocentric assertion!

    15   astrid   2007 Mar 6, 10:56am  

    SFWoman,

    That 5 bdrm condo could fit into Peter P's dream bathroom.

    It's a very funny listing -- I particularly liked the "Add a garage???" suggestion.

    16   Different Sean   2007 Mar 6, 11:21am  

    Patrick and Ben have special triple-wound DNA with 3 times the genetic material and intelligence and other as yet undiscovered powers. People like David Lereah and Alan Greenspan, with their mere single winding of DNA never stood a chance... How can they possibly compete with that, even with higher degrees in economics and spending all day watching markets?

    17   Brand165   2007 Mar 6, 11:24am  

    You jokers. Everybody knows that 1+1 = 10. You need 1+1+1 to get 11.

    18   Zephyr   2007 Mar 6, 11:26am  

    In the land of the blind the one eyed man will have his eye put out by the jealous leaders who cannot see.

    19   Zephyr   2007 Mar 6, 11:29am  

    Cycle excesses are standard and very foreseeable. The cycle repeats again and again. There is nothing remarkable in recognizing this. The genius is in getting the timing right - very right, and doing something to benefit from it.

    The true geniuses are those who saw the bubble coming, bought property at the right time before the run-up at low prices, and then sold at the top.

    20   Brand165   2007 Mar 6, 11:29am  

    Would it cause an uproar if I suggested that an infinite amount of bears, typing on an infinite amount of blogs, would eventually reach the conclusion of a liquidity bubble? Because let's face it, although it looks like the long slide has begun, in a year we could see that this was all some minor hiccup in the Bay Area economy.

    I choose to believe that Patrick and Ben applied common sense about bubbles to Bay Area home prices. But maybe that's because I agree with them. :)

    21   Different Sean   2007 Mar 6, 11:36am  

    ethnocentric...?

    22   StuckInBA   2007 Mar 6, 11:39am  

    SP says :
    Picture a frat party. One guy drives up in a pickup with kegs in the back. The other guy calls in the cops at 1am. Which one do you think will be more popular?

    It's obvious by now, but I will say it once more. This SP guy comes up with really good analogies.

    23   Brand165   2007 Mar 6, 12:06pm  

    What are they going to refinance into, a 100 year loan? Some of these jokers couldn't even afford the interest payments on a fixed-rate IO loan!

    24   sfbubblebuyer   2007 Mar 6, 12:12pm  

    They need to let the FB's get F'd in their Bs.

    What? I meant banks!

    25   Michael Holliday   2007 Mar 6, 12:14pm  

    In the land of the kings, the one-eyed jack's a joke.

    In the land of the broke, the one-eyed homeowner's a genius!

    26   Michael Holliday   2007 Mar 6, 12:19pm  

    In the land of the F'd Borrower Jackasses,
    the man with half a brain is gifted!

    27   Patrick   2007 Mar 6, 12:34pm  

    I knew you were going to talk about my psychic powers, of course.

    Alas, I'm no genius.

    Patrick

    28   Brand165   2007 Mar 6, 1:13pm  

    I would rather be a psychic than a genius. Lucky is always way better than smart. :)

    29   HARM   2007 Mar 6, 1:26pm  

    There you have it, folks: we are all part of Patrick's Psychic Friends network. :-)

    30   Brand165   2007 Mar 6, 1:33pm  

    Are we going to start charging people $1.99/minute to listen to our vague predictions?

    31   Different Sean   2007 Mar 6, 1:33pm  

    My system would be all sunshine and flowers...

    32   OO   2007 Mar 6, 1:35pm  

    Really nothing special about jacking up the rates 17 times, he is just staying the course. He would have been stupid not to jack up rates when the economy "looked" good.

    I am pretty confident that the last rate hike was the last under Ben until the next Fed Chairman comes along. The most he can do at this point is to keep the rate where it is, but I don't think he can defy cutting rates that long.

    33   DaBoss   2007 Mar 6, 1:41pm  

    When Darth Lereah said :

    "Im am your father Patrick, Join the Dark side and i will complete your training"

    then I knew Patric was on to something.

    34   HARM   2007 Mar 6, 1:58pm  

    Gyges,

    Welcome aboard. Have you been introduced to Surfer-X?

    35   DaBoss   2007 Mar 6, 2:20pm  

    per Par article...

    $500,000 option-ARM, monthly payments would be $1,608 for the minimum, $3,454 for interest-only, $3,770 for the 30-year equivalent and $4,862 for the 15-year equivalent.

    LOL my rent is only 1/3 of 30yr. at best I could upgrade at 1600 for Condo/TH
    but that doesnt include association fees. Man .. Im better off renting and saving the difference.

    36   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 2:32pm  

    A 2000 sqft 5 bedroom condo? Does it mean 5 room?

    37   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 2:34pm  

    I just had a scary drive on 101 back from SF. I do not know why Taxi drivers are so aggressive in America. Their counterparts in Japan are always much more polite and safety-conscious.

    38   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 2:41pm  

    Peter, try taking a cab in Mexico or Brazil sometime…

    I will not attempt that, thank you very much. I think we should make driver's licenses more difficult to obtain.

    39   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 2:45pm  

    What would a psychic say about the housing market?

    Patrick Killelea says, "US housing crash continues."

    http://patrick.net/housing/crash.html

    40   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 2:54pm  

    The thing that really ticks me off is that drivers in some country are aggressive because of the way they value human lives.

    Should we allow the importation of such value system?

    41   FormerAptBroker   2007 Mar 6, 3:05pm  

    PAR Posted a URL that said:

    > the East Bay's optional-payment ARMs jumped from 0.9
    > percent in December 2003 to 39 percent of all refinance
    > loans in December 2006

    And

    > A $500,000 option-ARM, monthly payments would be
    > $1,608 for the minimum, $3,454 for interest-only,
    > $3,770 for the 30-year equivalent and $4,862 for
    > the 15-year equivalent.

    I heard that many people that got the “option-ARMs” didn’t read the fine print to find out that they will not have the “option” to pay the minimum payment for long. I have heard that most of the loans will end the borrowers “option” to pick a payment and go to a 25-28 year amortized payment as the new minimum once they hit 110% of the original loan amount.

    Since few people in the northern part of SF have a mortgage of under $1mm let’s look at a typical happy FB couple living in a Cow Hollow condo picking the “minimum” payment (doubling the numbers from PARs Link) on their $1mm loan of $3,216. They are happy to “own” a home and after the tax advantage are only paying about $1K a month after taxes then their friends in the area. What most FBs forget about is that whey they “pick the low payment for a year” they have “added” almost 60K to what they owe.

    The “happy” FB will become F’d FBs after about a year and a half of “picking” the minimum payment when the neg am low pick your payment of $3,216 will end (the day the loan balance hits $1.1mm or 110% of what they borrowed) and the new 25 year am payment of $8,128 per month begins…

    42   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:06pm  

    There should be more training programs so that the road is safe.

    43   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:11pm  

    How do you stop value systems from being imported?

    Hopefully education will help.

    44   FormerAptBroker   2007 Mar 6, 3:12pm  

    Peter P Says:

    > I just had a scary drive on 101 back from SF.
    > I do not know why Taxi drivers are so aggressive
    > in America. Their counterparts in Japan are always
    > much more polite and safety-conscious.

    I have no idea how much money taxi drivers in other countries make but in SF due to the corrupt “medallion” system (that the SF Weekly has recently wrote about) some of the poor guys actually take home less than minimum wage per hour at the end of a shift (even is the work their ass of and drive like maniacs)…

    P.S. Since the wages are so low I can’t remember the last time I had a taxi driver in SF that was born in America…

    45   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:22pm  

    I have no idea how much money taxi drivers in other countries make but in SF due to the corrupt “medallion” system (that the SF Weekly has recently wrote about) some of the poor guys actually take home less than minimum wage per hour at the end of a shift (even is the work their ass of and drive like maniacs)…

    That does not mean that we should allow roadway safety to be compromised.

    46   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:24pm  

    RE: “medallion” system

    See, another distortion caused by market control.

    47   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:45pm  

    Somehow I find it funny that SF and capitalism appear in the same sentence.

    48   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:48pm  

    PAR, you may want to work with a good agent, one that will give you honest opinions.

    49   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:49pm  

    Well, I did say “supposedly”.

    Very well.

    50   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 3:56pm  

    PAR, a watched kettle never boils. :)

    51   Peter P   2007 Mar 6, 4:13pm  

    "I am trying to use my mind to make the market crash…"

    It is called manifesting. Beware, having too much negative thoughts may backfire on you.

    52   Jimbo   2007 Mar 6, 4:41pm  

    Robert Kyosaki tries to explain macroeconomics and the housing bubble:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/richricher/25748

    This guy is really clueless. Oh well, at least he is not pumping real estate anymore.

    Peter P, please tell me you don't believe in magical thinking.

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