patrick.net

Brand Says:
Are we really seeing “increasingly unscrupulous behavior” from people in power? Or is the information age and a surplus of journalists simply bringing status-quo abuses of power to the attention of the populace?

It's possible... starting from, i dunno, watergate or so... plus 'indulgent' education like sociology degrees being available to all and sundry... the link in the the last thread outlining marx's 5 types of alienation and a critique of consumer culture came from -- west valley college, saratoga -- and perhaps germane to this thread on consumerism also:
The Marxist critique of consumer culture

There was certainly an increasing mistrust of authority figures starting in the late 60s and the counterculture, the content of liberal arts studies, around things like vietnam, etc -- this is the beginning of a true re-democratisation process? But we don't know what we don't know regarding skullduggery in earlier times -- the Internet and mass media certainly get information around a lot quicker to a lot more people than it used to...

The thread's going well -- my silence indicates approval of the discourse... ;)

My sister thread 'Should land be free?' earned only ridicule and scorn... :(

I believe Nicholson is an Australian cartoonist for...The Australian, appropriately enough... where do you get them from so quickly Harm, I can never find good graphics...

The only thing different about the Roman empire was the pattern of enslavement and taxation of 'barbarian' societies which lead to them march back on Rome (from Germany mainly) once they mastered Roman forms of military organisation -- I don't see an equivalent threat to the US geographically (despite the invasion of 'illegals'), militarily, or other serious threats... Or...?

I'm interested to know what y'all mean by class...

In England. for instance, its all about who your parents/grandparents were, where you went to school, where you live, what kind of job you have. Its like a sixth sense - no matter how classless people say they are nowadays in Blighty, most can tell in seconds exactly where you fall on the class ladder, as soon as you open your mouth to speak.

Its not about money..too many aristocrats that have sold the family estate to live in the gatehouse, too many so-called working class people with bags of money.
Class is much more of a social heirarchy, and despite the changes in UK society over the last 50 years, most people are still acutely, if subconcsiously, aware of it.
If anything, I'd say that the middle class in the Uk has grown over the years, as working class people have moved up, and upper class people have moved down - so that more people are glommed in together in the middle.

Over here, it seems to be all about the money - the more you have, and the bigger your toys, the higher class you are. Maybe its something to do with the fact that your socielty hasn't evolved from feudalism over the last 1000 years...

Anyway, I'm interested in exactly how class is defined over here - is it money? Is it some indefineable 'other' quality? What makes one person working class and another upper class?

There's a lower, middle and upper middle class, I guess... The LMC can easily morph back into the 'working' class (hmm, they're the only ones who work, apparently), and in fact one treatment I read pointed out most of the middle class is really an extension of the working class who have become more affluent, with the illusion of being middle class and having some sort of control over their lives -- but they are still reliant on salaries and wages from a potentially capricious employer... (in a similar vein, Marx's model only recognised the 'owners of the means of production' (the bourgeoisie) and small employers (the petit bourgeoisie) -- everyone else is basically proletariat. However, the rise of the professional and managing classes probably puts paid to this simple Marxian model, but the caveat above still applies.)

class was traditionally defined purely economically. another measure of 'class' membership is the amount of cultural capital you possess, apart from your pure economic status. so you could be a PhD not accustomed to manual labor but still in a LMC wage bracket, earning less than a tradesman, but highly edumicated and aware and mixing as a social equal with other more successful graduates...

Brand's description of luxury would have to be UMC, or bourgeois, tho... there are plenty of middle class people who have bought tiny overpriced houses in Sydney who can barely afford furniture, also...

speedingpullet, i just wrote that last post as a complete coincidence which follows yours -- it partially addresses your remarks, but i think you brought out 'social class membership' much better...

DS - I seem to be sympatico with a lot of people's thought processes these days...

Brand,

Join me in my "exclusive membership" to the...

Last of the Great Backyard Ameicans (TM)

Here, we listen to the SINGLE "A" Keizer Volcanoes (part of the Giants farm league) on AM radio (daughter's friend calls the play by play) grill "ball parks" and swill macro-brew by the pallet load!

www.volcanoesbaseball.com

Join me and the hooligans in the "cheap seats"!

(Actually daughter's friend does the "post, post game show") but is very colorful and has a great radio voice!

Americans?

Can we get a Bonds/Aaron countdown going on like a banner off to the side or whatever? :)

739, 16 to go.

eburbed Says:
Criminologist Fox speculates that the increasing popularity of workplace killings, and public shootings generally, may be partly due to decreasing economic security and increasing inequality. America increasingly rewards its winners with a disproportionate share of wealth and adoration, while treating its losers to a heaping helping of public shame.

I'd go along with that -- economic inequality is the 'elephant in the living room' in American discourse -- you are supposed to just take it on the chin if you are not a 'success' -- like the prosperity doctrine of late, God clearly isn't blessing you in this life if you're not making big fat stacks. Claims of autism aside, look at the sorts of remarks being made by Cho, glossed over somewhat by the MSM as 'the ravings of a madman'. In conjunction with our 2nd amendment problem, what will the outcome increasingly be?

All of this "war on the middle class talk" is political rhetoric designed to foster a sense of entitlement. Politicians love entitlement because it gives them a way to be win >50% of the votes by stealing from the 5%, deemed the evil rich. Alternatively, stealing a small amount from 98% who won't notice it to pay off 2% who will contribute money and workers to your campaign (eg. municipal workers and K street lobbyists). This has been the game since FDR.

Of course, the "middle class" wants to believe that they deserve whatever the government is doling out. Look at how casually the fool "victims" of overleverage are stepping up to the bail-out plate, coaxed by the most cheaply opportunistic of politicians, Chuck Schumer. When the housing debacle spreads, trust that the bailout will become a more credible threat. After all homeownership is the "American Dream", and therefore all American's are entitled to it (at your expense).

This "entitlement" and "redistribution" corrodes any sense of personal responsibility. This is a core problem with the middle class, not material wealth. The average Joe in America is materially so much better off now than anytime in the history of the world. But for their envy of the better off,

Most of us find it repugnant for savers to be taxed so that someone else can live beyond their means. This is little different than taxing working people to pay for a bunch of retirees' 25 year vacation in Florida.
Redistribution and entitlement, as much as capitalism itself encourages the gross materialism Brand-X rightly scorns. If your healthcare expenses, childs education, and old age are someone else's financial burden, why NOT spend everything, and then some now? Undeserved money fuels such poor taste and conspicuous consumption (refer to rappers among other celebrities for proof here).

Ultimately the biggest argument against redistribution is that it will be highly inefficient. People deemed "rich" will hide their wealth (justifiably) in the rest of the world when faced with >50% taxation. This is my version of
"something for nothing"- instead of getting a reasonable rate (let's say 20%) of something, you will get >50% of nothing. It's a big world out there, guys. By the way, this is another reason I rent- my jurisdiction taxes 2.05% of property value a year. Homeowners are easy targets for taxation, by their nature immobile.

BigBrother Says:

> Any banker, consultant, lawyer, doctor with 10-15 years
> experience (i.e 30s to late 30’s) can purchase a 2-3 million
> dollar home. Think about how many of those guys there
> are…. and these are just the simple workers, not the
> Venture Capitalists, Internet millionaires etc… but the
> normal man.

Good to hear that the “normal man” and “simple workers” can all afford $2-3mm homes.

I bet all the “normal simple” people that Randy H grew up with can all buy a $2-3mm home.

It must only be the slackers I grew up with that can’t easily buy multi-million $ homes…

"Those were recessions, not depressions."

But lets look at the Stock market crash by 25% in 1987 and then over 50-90% in 2000. Job losses over 30% in 1991 and then again 2000 the numbers are pretty deep. When mfg left the valley it was perm. Many SV companies (over 75% employers didnt make into the 90s)

Compare to Great Depression...

From Wiki;" Unemployment jumped from 14.3% in 1937 to 19.0% in 1938...After an amazing eight-year run that saw the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) increase in value fivefold, prices peaked at 381.17 on September 3, 1929. The market then fell sharply for a month, losing 17% of its value on the initial leg down. Prices then recovered more than half of the losses over the next week, only to turn back down immediately afterwards. The decline then accelerated into the so-called "Black Thursday", October 24, 1929."

surfer-x Says:

Is is that there are just proportionally more people who like to sit around and be bitter, and wish ill will upon the wealthy? Or might there be another reason?

Exportation of all manufacturing to Chindia by greedy boomer fucks (GBF) whose sole motivation is making their stock rise by 2% so they can collect their extra fucking bonus? Ok how about the gutting of benefits so GBF stock can go up 2 pts? Or was it just the very savvy GBF that figured out less for others equals more for them? Or was it changing the scope of the game so that entry is all but impossible to Gen-Xrs?

Or maybe it’s just that I like sitting around and being bitter.
_____

Absolutely 100% true...and almost prophetic.

I work for a defense contractor. We had a program meeting to discuss ways of saving money. The Chindia card kept coming up. Mr. Holliday raises hand and says, "Umm...shouldn't we be trying to keep these jobs in the U.S. since they're defense related? How about bringing in some co-op college students?"

Angry heads turn toward Mr. Holliday with a frown, like he just lit a cigarette in health food store... :-(

We just had a quarterly town hall meeting via satellite. Dude with big huevos asks CEO "...yes, but what about major turnover at the _____ plant?"

CEO says--in smooth political tongue, that would make even Bill Clinton envious--"Change is inevitable!" and in so many words, they weren't good workers anyway.

Dude asks how do you measure success then?

CEO "by the price of the stock."

By the way, people in my dept. weren't very happy this quarter because nobody received a raise. Of course this was so that GBF suits could increase profits and the bottom line...and it worked!

Needless to say, a few of the new guys are thinking about going back
to their old jobs.

two months ago, a 28-year veteran engineer jumped from the second-floor in protest of the increasing pressure to do more for less, on a Sunday (so the security guards would find him), after strapping his neck to the guard rail and diving. Needless to say, it was a violent end.

In the final analysis, it's nothing personal against the middle class of America...

JUST BIZ!

eburbed Says:

> Why Mountain View’s firefighters, who make just a
> little less than some Google employees, choose to
> live out there, is beyond me.

Most Bay Area firefighters make more than most Google employees…

I don’t know about the Mountain View schedule, but the reason many guys live so far away is that they only have to commute 5 times a month.

Many departments work a 48 hour shifts then have 4 days in a row off…

"25 year vacation in Florida"

Yeah that about sums it up. Hip replacements (so you can golf better?) are pretty expensive, ya' know. All you whiners get back to work, pay your taxes and stfu so as not to tarnish these "golden" years.

*Golden Years, defined as having to get up every 2 hours to use the bathroom. SEE YA!

Holliday,

Great (and scary) post! Very revealing.

Exportation of all manufacturing to Chindia

Actually mfg exporting began in mid 80s and completed by early 90s in SV.
Today its Engineering. Overall if you dont export the companies and all jobs
would vanish from SV.

Its more of survive or die, very little to do with bonus.

FAB,

It's the tip of the iceberg. Most of those "public servants" also are contractors and wannabe flippers during their 4 days off. And bitch about the taxes they have to pay! Most cheat. Yeah I said MOST. Talk about a kick in the teeth.

BigBrother

News papers are advertising whores. Do anyone for money.

We had that in SJ for years. Once the advertising vanished SJM started
to publish stories about Mortgage and Appraisal fraud. All of sudden
they started to mention unsustainable bubble talk.

More proof that surfer-x's GBF theory is correct:

DENVER -- Joseph Nacchio , former CEO of Qwest Communications International Inc., was found guilty on Thursday of 19 counts of insider trading, capping the last major trial in a spate of scandals that tarnished corporate America over the last decade.

Nacchio , 57 (garden-variety GBF), was acquitted of 23 of the 42 insider trading charges (leaving only 19 GBF guilty charges...ha, ha!). Federal prosecutors had accused him of selling $101 million of Qwest shares after company insiders warned him that the phone carrier could not meet its financial forecasts.

The 19 guilty charges corresponded to stock sales worth more than $50 million in April and May of 2001.

"This is an overwhelming determination of guilty," U.S. Attorney Troy Eid told reporters outside Denver's federal courthouse.
___

I rest my case.

--MH

justme,

Undue influence of US Attorney is a big deal, just ask that Wisconsin woman who spent months in jail being prosecuted for "less than thin" evidence or the Guantanamo detainees.

But as to why the Republicans care. My guess is that like that page molester Mark Foley, he just became too embarrassing to be saddled with.

justme Says:

Off topic, but I think someone here is going to know he answer:

Why are the republicans joining in on the Gonzales witch-hunt?
_____

Gonzales is an ex-member of the brown racist/supremacist group La Raza (which means "The Race" in Spanish).

That's grounds enough, in my book, for termination.

Oh, that's right, I forgot. Brown racism is good racism. That's why the DF libs never made it an issue...

I really got a kick out of Brand's rant. Here is a fun first hand observation. I went to the Kint Tut exhibition a couple of years ago in LA. I have to say it was impressive for the historical significance. Everything was artful and interesting, but it crossed my mind that this represented the ultimate in wealth back then. Apart from the gold coffin which wasn't at the show everything I saw seemed easily attainable in our society. Some people's garages have about the same amount of clutter as King Tut's tomb.

Harm, a lot of posts so far seem to really question how one measures wealth. People seem to miss some of the little things which was why people in the old days really wanted wealth. Overall even the poorest in our country live in safety, with clean water, and the most abundant food supply in history. The poorer kids are fatter than the richer kids in this country. At the basic level history has to view this period with some praise.

Does anyone know if Newt Gingrich ever repaid the $300,000 'loan' from Bob Dole for his ethics fines, or is this just another gift that won't be taxed properly because of who was involved?

Brand, I totally with you conceptually but I also like the trend I'm seeing of demanding quality in things. I believe if you are going to invest in a new kitchen you should use stone, and quality materials. I don't have a problem with those sorts of luxuries. It's the people that you describe to a tee that really disgust me. The ones who would actually go into debt making themselves truly poor to try to appear to be living the high life. I also don't understand why they choose their purchases the way they do. I'm telling you, you get much more admiration for putting a nice solar electric system on your house than adding another RV to the local congested street parking problem.

The ones who would actually go into debt making themselves truly poor to try to appear to be living the high life.

Worse yet, they have poor taste. And many of them do not even renovate their bathrooms.

I’m telling you, you get much more admiration for putting a nice solar electric system on your house than adding another RV to the local congested street parking problem.

Solar is cool. Still too expensive per kW though.

If you want to drive an RV across the country; I don't get it personally but I don't judge either, then rent one, but for God sakes don't buy one and park it on the street. I had a neighbor across the street from me in a previous house that did that and it was literally all you could see out the front window.

Very expesnsive, but I bit the bullet, and I think it was a good decision. There is an intangible pride factor to consider in the ROI. My strategy has always been to put money where it does something, anything verses buying toys. Even if my ROI is 6-8% on a solar system, it is much better than the ROI on a boat.

Speedingpullet

In my work life, the class system is alive and well. I am a nurse practitioner and through our previous real estate deals am probably worth more financially than many of the docs I work with.
However, if you don't have an M.D. behind your name, you can never join the top of the very stratified hierarchy. I guess it is a human failing to need to pretend to be better than others.

Danville woman - I hear you about the doctor thing.

I had the misfortune to be made to train 'baby doctors' in the arcane use of medical statistics, back in the day, when I worked at St Thomas' Hospital in London .

Talk about entitled. Maybe it was something to do with them being young....no...I'm being generous.
They were a bunch of snotty teenagers with chips on their shoulders. And, couldn't undersatnd the link between medical practice and researching medical practice, as it wasn't glamourous, like, say, surgery was. I mean, who needs to learn useless stufff like how to take a survey, when you could be saving lives?

Not to say that there aren't nice doctors everywhere- and I'm sure that a few of the ones I taught grew up to be nice people. But as a group, at that age, they were elitist and generally crappy to anyone they considered to be 'beneath' them. Which happened to be me at the time, despite already having my degree and a couple of years work experience, in a field that few of them would be able to do proficiently. Meh.

Interestingly enough, going back to class as it is percived in the UK - all the snotty gits were the sons and daughters of either other doctors, or from well-heeled famlies in the Home Counties - in other words the Upper Middle Class. The very few who seemed to be interested in medical stats (even if they never intended to use it beyond the class), and were polite and considerate to the staff were, to a person, from the Working Class. I guess if you actually have to graft for the opporunity to do what you want to do, you're a lot more sympathetic to the working stiffs around you.

Malcom says: I really got a kick out of Brand’s rant.

Glad to be of use. :)

Here is a fun first hand observation. I went to the Kint Tut exhibition a couple of years ago in LA. I have to say it was impressive for the historical significance. Everything was artful and interesting, but it crossed my mind that this represented the ultimate in wealth back then. Apart from the gold coffin which wasn’t at the show everything I saw seemed easily attainable in our society. Some people’s garages have about the same amount of clutter as King Tut’s tomb.

I think ancient wealth is generally an expression of how many people you had working for you. King Tut's tomb was basically stating that he had tens of thousands of workers at his disposal. In the Egyptian case, they often killed the workers afterwards to serve their king in the afterlife---talk about extravagant spending of resources!

But isn't that what a granite countertop or exotic hardwood floors represent? Laborers quarried the stone from the earth, ships transported it, artisans shaped it. There's no such thing as a beautiful household material that isn't expensive. Peacock feathers, as astrid says.

Harm, a lot of posts so far seem to really question how one measures wealth. People seem to miss some of the little things which was why people in the old days really wanted wealth. Overall even the poorest in our country live in safety, with clean water, and the most abundant food supply in history. ... At the basic level history has to view this period with some praise.

I tend to agree. Technology and industry have made the essentials of life uniquely abundant in the modern United States.

The poorer kids are fatter than the richer kids in this country.

Actually, that's because poor people tend to binge on cheap foods filled with carbohydrates, fat and corn syrup. Cheap food in the U.S. is nothing more than starch and sugar with some flavoring. It's amazing that you can have a 200 lb. fourteen year old who suffers from malnutrition, but that happens very often.

Does anyone remember when we had mandatory government athletic tests back in the 1980s? I think that was a good idea. All kids should be held to a minimum level of fitness, except if they truly have physical problems. Soda and snacks should be banned from school vending machines; parents should have the option to make their kids eat a healthy school lunch instead of the usual starch-laden garbage.

TOS: I genuinely believe that Americans are in debt up to their eyeballs because they can't understand the math. If it were up to me, frugality would be taught in every school. Students would be taught to value knowledge and happiness over possessions.

TOS

Even smart people who can understand math quite well get inflation wrong. Practical economics should be taught in every US high school. In fact, I think they should bring back home economics in the strictest sense of the word. HomEc always had a shade of budgeting, checkbook balancing and such in it, but it was overshadowed by cooking, cleaning and baby raising (not that those things aren't important).

I'd foresee an entire, mandatory class dedicated to the following rough curriculum:

* Basics: how to balance your checkbook, etc.

* Modern basics: how to balance your checkbook using online banking, etc.

* Credit cards: how they work; how they can bite you; how they can help you.

* Credit scores: what they are; why you care; how to build and maintain one.

* Debt: how much does debt cost you; when and how to pay it off.

* Budgeting: running your life and a household; figuring out how to plan through various scenarios like buying a new home, having a baby, losing a job.
- *Inflation* introduced naturally here, not as theory, but how much you have to plan now to pay for things later.

* Insurance: how it works; how much minimum should you buy.

* Scams: how to spot, smell, and avoid financial scams.

* Advanced Topics (only to be taught if time, and to those requiring extra challenges):
- Buying a home: how, when, why.
- Investing for retirement: how, when (always now), why.
- Non-retirement investing: saving for kids college, other stuff.

NOTE:

I would _not_ allow nerds, eggheads, and AP track overachievers to "test out" or skip this course. A big part of the problem is *smart* people who make *dumb* personal financial decisions.

Actually, that’s because poor people tend to binge on cheap foods filled with carbohydrates, fat and corn syrup. Cheap food in the U.S. is nothing more than starch and sugar with some flavoring. It’s amazing that you can have a 200 lb. fourteen year old who suffers from malnutrition, but that happens very often.

The NYTimes has a great piece on this problem today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/magazine/22wwlnlede.t.html?ei=5070&em=&en=aff0b2f4c26eec6c&ex=1177387200&pagewanted=all

Basically, poor people are fat because of the way your tax dollars are spent. Woot!

If you want to drive an RV across the country; I don’t get it personally but I don’t judge either, then rent one, but for God sakes don’t buy one and park it on the street. I had a neighbor across the street from me in a previous house that did that and it was literally all you could see out the front window.

Aren't there laws here that no vehicle can be parked on the street for more than 48 hours without moving or something?

Of course, that's how NeighborWars(TM) start.

Corn syrup is one of the worst modern inventions. The same with processed soy and bleached wheat. It's just empty calories. No vitamins, no beneficial acids, no nothing. In the name of supporting farmers, we have turned the lower class into a blubbery hunk of voluntary foie gras.

But if that author thinks the U.S. is going to overturn any part of the farm bill, he is grossly optimistic. The lobby of companies like Coke and Procter & Gamble is massively more powerful than a bunch of "hippies" who want cheap fresh produce.

TOS,

No, I wish!

Oh wait, I don't wish!

:)

Very humbly yours,

astrid