patrick.net

I can't think of anyone I know who meets Brand's definition of middle class. Guess everyone I know must be poor, even the multi-millionaires. And anyone with a 4000 sq ft home in San Francisco is definitely wealthy, by any standard.

Oh, I get it, you are being sarcastic.

HAHAHAHA

To expand my last inquiry, it is very possible for people of average means to temporarily project the image of being very wealthy. I get concerned when this turns into a keep up with the Jones's kind of wealth race. These people may be confused with genuine wealth but that would be wrong for this discussion.

There was a strong pull toward buying lots of *crap about 5 years ago when it became very acceptable to tap equity and interests rates kept dropping. Alan Greenspan feared a depression and pulled out all the stops to get people to spend. It worked! Probably only too well. The consequences will be interesting !

Jimbo, that's true, that's why I'm asking for a few clarifications. To me, the poorest people are the ones with the most crap in the garage. Wealth is a real net worth, not a bunch of toys with a hefty monthly bill.

In this country on average we live liike kings in comparison to other parts of the world yet on paper we are actually poorer than the poor. Around the world you are poor if you are worth a big ZERO, yet in this country you can be worth NEGATIVE something and still drive a new Hummer.

bobh Says:
April 21st, 2007 at 6:54 pm
"Why is the “poor” guy in the cartoon skinny? Poor people are usually fat. Just what in hell is a “poor people” defined as nowadays anyway? "

I think nowadays you are poor if you only have basic cable.

Hi Malcolm,

Basically, what I was getting at is that the U.S. is getting more and more polarized economically, which roughly means fewer people achieving "middle class" status (neither rich nor poor --however you choose to define it), with the lion's share moving from "middle" to "poor". Also, a greater share of the country's wealth, passive or otherwise, is now going to the top quintile, with the extreme upper 1-2% getting the lion's share of it.

And no, I would not consider someone with a bunch of HELOC'd status symbol crap they value above their own children "rich" in any sense of the word --economically or spiritually.

I have always thought of Peter P as a Stephen Colbert doppleganger.

My wife agrees.

Cool Harm, this will be a fun one.

yet in this country you can be worth NEGATIVE something and still drive a new Hummer

Yup. At least until someone closes the easy-money tap.

(Changed my tag to be more explicit; there's another ajh now posting on CR.)

just maybe, the herd is wrong

So now the bulls are saying 'the herd' is bearish. I disagree.

It is a well known sociological effect that a group that has had overwhelming reinforcement of their views for a period of time sees even a mild move towards neutrality as propoganda for the opposition.

It's a little bit like the people who think US interest rates are going to be lowered because they are "high", when in fact they are only just into the neutral range (and in fact some of the alternative-CPI types feel that in real terms they are still negative). They have become so used to the freakishly low rates of the last few years that they consider these to be 'normal'.

What is considered middle class? Earning $80,000 a year combined. or $250,000 a year. Having a S500 Mercedes or a Suburban. Supporting your kids in Private school or having them attend public schools. I know several people who are in the top echelon in terms of assets. I consider them as the higher class.($10 Mil - 150 Mil) The definition of middle class is very subjective. Do I think there is a disparity of middle class and the wealthy in bay area. I would say no. Do I consider myself as middle class. I would say so. Will another person think I am a tick above middle class, sure. I can be in the category of middle class as a renter. I can also categaorize a homeowner with a $800,000 mortage a notch below what I feel as middle class.

Middle class is as much a mental state as an economic category. There's quite a few surveys where everyone from people from households earning as little as $30K to as much as $1M thought of themselves as middle class. Two recent and pretty well discussed wrinkles follows.

1. The high earners start to see themselves as upper class rather than middle class, segregate themselves via private school and gated communities.

2. The low earners see trappings of high earner "middle class" life and believe that lifestyle is obtainable. Aim for lifestyle via big splashy expenditures.

@LSR, tanks man ;)

@DP,

See "Quintiles" section on HH Income
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Quintiles

lower class $0-18,499
lower middle class $18,500-$34,737
middle class $34,738-$55,330
upper middle class $55,331-$88,029
upper class $88,030+
Top 5% (subset of upper class) $157,176+

Of course, these are arbitrary statistical divisions and raw "income" by itself means little. It's the standard of living (not to be confused with "quality of life" --thanks, cm ;-) ) it's capable of purchasing that matters.

For example, my family would be considered "upper middle class" by HH income quintile, but in CA, we cannot (yet) afford even a 2Bdm condo within a reasonable commute to our jobs with anything other than a toxic NINJA loan. We manage to save by living below our means (yes, we're *that* weird) and occasionally take nice vacations that we pay for up front. The wife's car is 11 years old, mine is 9 --and no plans to replace them anytime soon. We are still probably "rich" by any developing world standard, but still cannot achieve anywhere close to the standard of living the previous (Boomer & Silent) generations took for granted at our age.

eburbed,

next time, take a drive on Pierce Road in Saratoga, go from the so-called "golden triangle" to the back the mountain and you know where the gated communities are. Do the same on Kennedy Road in Los Gatos.

I picked Pierce Road because it is a very interesting transition. While all the "golden triangle" residents tap each other on the back for making it into this million-and-half-dollar neighborhood, busy showing off their graniteel, remodel, schools, they have yet to travel just a few miles to see where the true wealth is.

It is always very interesting driving from the rolling hills down to 9 in Saratoga and Monte Sereno, or from Portola Valley down to Palo Alto, it puts things in perspective. Once I saw a couple of pony-riding kids in full equestrian apparel came by from behind the gate on my drive, it felt so surreal. It is the same pattern - those with such a sprawling estate so deep in the woods that you cannot even see the mansion from outside the gate, looking down from atop the hills at all those million-plus-dollar bland ranch houses huddling together in the so-called prime spots, who thought they owned a piece of the valley, but they really don't. They are just slaves, not only slaves to those on top of the hills, slaves to their debt, but also slaves to other people's dreams.

For most self-proclaimed middle class worker bees in BA, they are just spending their entire lifetime trying to replicate a cheap, made-in-China version of those on the western end of Pierce Road. When I see someone putting a heavily decorated iron-cast gate on a 7000-sft lot where a 4000-sft McMansion with plaster pillars and vinyl windows sits, I can't help chuckling, who the hell do you think you are trying to fool?

HARM,

as long as you take cautionary steps to protect your hard earned and hard-saved money, you will be able to experience the upper middle class lifestyle in the next 5-10 years.

However, the issue is, do you want to? I think anonymity and modesty is the best protection in such a polarized world, especially after a major financial blowup. You certainly don't want to stick out like a sore thumb flaunting your money as the soup line gets longer.

I recommend "Wealth and Democracy" by Kevin Phillips, for those who have not read it. It's an older book but it's eye-opening.

The growing phenomenon of “Privatize Profits, Socialize Risks”, where politically well connected big businesses and de-facto cartels attempt to insulate themselves from competition, and seek to transfer the consequences of their own bad financial decisions to taxpayers, via federal laws, subsidies and bailouts.

To the above I say let's repeal the 17th amendment so that the senate is not so directly controlled by the lobbyists-

http://tinyurl.com/bg8nu

Paul,

Huh? The 17th Amendment was a blow against federalism, but I don't see how it makes the senate particularly vulnerable to lobbyists.

Hellokitty,

I've heard of a dogsitter who charges $30 per visit to open the door so the dog can do its business, wait ten minutes for the dog to come back in, and then lock up the house and leave. By this calculation and unless there's some alternate quid pro quo, your friend is potentially depriving you of thousands of $.

Or maybe your friend could just put the dog up somewhere for the duration of the trip.

Brand Says:
Are we really seeing “increasingly unscrupulous behavior” from people in power? Or is the information age and a surplus of journalists simply bringing status-quo abuses of power to the attention of the populace?

It's possible... starting from, i dunno, watergate or so... plus 'indulgent' education like sociology degrees being available to all and sundry... the link in the the last thread outlining marx's 5 types of alienation and a critique of consumer culture came from -- west valley college, saratoga -- and perhaps germane to this thread on consumerism also:
The Marxist critique of consumer culture

There was certainly an increasing mistrust of authority figures starting in the late 60s and the counterculture, the content of liberal arts studies, around things like vietnam, etc -- this is the beginning of a true re-democratisation process? But we don't know what we don't know regarding skullduggery in earlier times -- the Internet and mass media certainly get information around a lot quicker to a lot more people than it used to...

The thread's going well -- my silence indicates approval of the discourse... ;)

My sister thread 'Should land be free?' earned only ridicule and scorn... :(

I believe Nicholson is an Australian cartoonist for...The Australian, appropriately enough... where do you get them from so quickly Harm, I can never find good graphics...

The only thing different about the Roman empire was the pattern of enslavement and taxation of 'barbarian' societies which lead to them march back on Rome (from Germany mainly) once they mastered Roman forms of military organisation -- I don't see an equivalent threat to the US geographically (despite the invasion of 'illegals'), militarily, or other serious threats... Or...?

I'm interested to know what y'all mean by class...

In England. for instance, its all about who your parents/grandparents were, where you went to school, where you live, what kind of job you have. Its like a sixth sense - no matter how classless people say they are nowadays in Blighty, most can tell in seconds exactly where you fall on the class ladder, as soon as you open your mouth to speak.

Its not about money..too many aristocrats that have sold the family estate to live in the gatehouse, too many so-called working class people with bags of money.
Class is much more of a social heirarchy, and despite the changes in UK society over the last 50 years, most people are still acutely, if subconcsiously, aware of it.
If anything, I'd say that the middle class in the Uk has grown over the years, as working class people have moved up, and upper class people have moved down - so that more people are glommed in together in the middle.

Over here, it seems to be all about the money - the more you have, and the bigger your toys, the higher class you are. Maybe its something to do with the fact that your socielty hasn't evolved from feudalism over the last 1000 years...

Anyway, I'm interested in exactly how class is defined over here - is it money? Is it some indefineable 'other' quality? What makes one person working class and another upper class?

There's a lower, middle and upper middle class, I guess... The LMC can easily morph back into the 'working' class (hmm, they're the only ones who work, apparently), and in fact one treatment I read pointed out most of the middle class is really an extension of the working class who have become more affluent, with the illusion of being middle class and having some sort of control over their lives -- but they are still reliant on salaries and wages from a potentially capricious employer... (in a similar vein, Marx's model only recognised the 'owners of the means of production' (the bourgeoisie) and small employers (the petit bourgeoisie) -- everyone else is basically proletariat. However, the rise of the professional and managing classes probably puts paid to this simple Marxian model, but the caveat above still applies.)

class was traditionally defined purely economically. another measure of 'class' membership is the amount of cultural capital you possess, apart from your pure economic status. so you could be a PhD not accustomed to manual labor but still in a LMC wage bracket, earning less than a tradesman, but highly edumicated and aware and mixing as a social equal with other more successful graduates...

Brand's description of luxury would have to be UMC, or bourgeois, tho... there are plenty of middle class people who have bought tiny overpriced houses in Sydney who can barely afford furniture, also...

speedingpullet, i just wrote that last post as a complete coincidence which follows yours -- it partially addresses your remarks, but i think you brought out 'social class membership' much better...

DS - I seem to be sympatico with a lot of people's thought processes these days...

Brand,

Join me in my "exclusive membership" to the...

Last of the Great Backyard Ameicans (TM)

Here, we listen to the SINGLE "A" Keizer Volcanoes (part of the Giants farm league) on AM radio (daughter's friend calls the play by play) grill "ball parks" and swill macro-brew by the pallet load!

www.volcanoesbaseball.com

Join me and the hooligans in the "cheap seats"!

(Actually daughter's friend does the "post, post game show") but is very colorful and has a great radio voice!

Americans?

Can we get a Bonds/Aaron countdown going on like a banner off to the side or whatever? :)

739, 16 to go.

eburbed Says:
Criminologist Fox speculates that the increasing popularity of workplace killings, and public shootings generally, may be partly due to decreasing economic security and increasing inequality. America increasingly rewards its winners with a disproportionate share of wealth and adoration, while treating its losers to a heaping helping of public shame.

I'd go along with that -- economic inequality is the 'elephant in the living room' in American discourse -- you are supposed to just take it on the chin if you are not a 'success' -- like the prosperity doctrine of late, God clearly isn't blessing you in this life if you're not making big fat stacks. Claims of autism aside, look at the sorts of remarks being made by Cho, glossed over somewhat by the MSM as 'the ravings of a madman'. In conjunction with our 2nd amendment problem, what will the outcome increasingly be?

All of this "war on the middle class talk" is political rhetoric designed to foster a sense of entitlement. Politicians love entitlement because it gives them a way to be win >50% of the votes by stealing from the 5%, deemed the evil rich. Alternatively, stealing a small amount from 98% who won't notice it to pay off 2% who will contribute money and workers to your campaign (eg. municipal workers and K street lobbyists). This has been the game since FDR.

Of course, the "middle class" wants to believe that they deserve whatever the government is doling out. Look at how casually the fool "victims" of overleverage are stepping up to the bail-out plate, coaxed by the most cheaply opportunistic of politicians, Chuck Schumer. When the housing debacle spreads, trust that the bailout will become a more credible threat. After all homeownership is the "American Dream", and therefore all American's are entitled to it (at your expense).

This "entitlement" and "redistribution" corrodes any sense of personal responsibility. This is a core problem with the middle class, not material wealth. The average Joe in America is materially so much better off now than anytime in the history of the world. But for their envy of the better off,

Most of us find it repugnant for savers to be taxed so that someone else can live beyond their means. This is little different than taxing working people to pay for a bunch of retirees' 25 year vacation in Florida.
Redistribution and entitlement, as much as capitalism itself encourages the gross materialism Brand-X rightly scorns. If your healthcare expenses, childs education, and old age are someone else's financial burden, why NOT spend everything, and then some now? Undeserved money fuels such poor taste and conspicuous consumption (refer to rappers among other celebrities for proof here).

Ultimately the biggest argument against redistribution is that it will be highly inefficient. People deemed "rich" will hide their wealth (justifiably) in the rest of the world when faced with >50% taxation. This is my version of
"something for nothing"- instead of getting a reasonable rate (let's say 20%) of something, you will get >50% of nothing. It's a big world out there, guys. By the way, this is another reason I rent- my jurisdiction taxes 2.05% of property value a year. Homeowners are easy targets for taxation, by their nature immobile.

BigBrother Says:

> Any banker, consultant, lawyer, doctor with 10-15 years
> experience (i.e 30s to late 30’s) can purchase a 2-3 million
> dollar home. Think about how many of those guys there
> are…. and these are just the simple workers, not the
> Venture Capitalists, Internet millionaires etc… but the
> normal man.

Good to hear that the “normal man” and “simple workers” can all afford $2-3mm homes.

I bet all the “normal simple” people that Randy H grew up with can all buy a $2-3mm home.

It must only be the slackers I grew up with that can’t easily buy multi-million $ homes…

"Those were recessions, not depressions."

But lets look at the Stock market crash by 25% in 1987 and then over 50-90% in 2000. Job losses over 30% in 1991 and then again 2000 the numbers are pretty deep. When mfg left the valley it was perm. Many SV companies (over 75% employers didnt make into the 90s)

Compare to Great Depression...

From Wiki;" Unemployment jumped from 14.3% in 1937 to 19.0% in 1938...After an amazing eight-year run that saw the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) increase in value fivefold, prices peaked at 381.17 on September 3, 1929. The market then fell sharply for a month, losing 17% of its value on the initial leg down. Prices then recovered more than half of the losses over the next week, only to turn back down immediately afterwards. The decline then accelerated into the so-called "Black Thursday", October 24, 1929."

surfer-x Says:

Is is that there are just proportionally more people who like to sit around and be bitter, and wish ill will upon the wealthy? Or might there be another reason?

Exportation of all manufacturing to Chindia by greedy boomer fucks (GBF) whose sole motivation is making their stock rise by 2% so they can collect their extra fucking bonus? Ok how about the gutting of benefits so GBF stock can go up 2 pts? Or was it just the very savvy GBF that figured out less for others equals more for them? Or was it changing the scope of the game so that entry is all but impossible to Gen-Xrs?

Or maybe it’s just that I like sitting around and being bitter.
_____

Absolutely 100% true...and almost prophetic.

I work for a defense contractor. We had a program meeting to discuss ways of saving money. The Chindia card kept coming up. Mr. Holliday raises hand and says, "Umm...shouldn't we be trying to keep these jobs in the U.S. since they're defense related? How about bringing in some co-op college students?"

Angry heads turn toward Mr. Holliday with a frown, like he just lit a cigarette in health food store... :-(

We just had a quarterly town hall meeting via satellite. Dude with big huevos asks CEO "...yes, but what about major turnover at the _____ plant?"

CEO says--in smooth political tongue, that would make even Bill Clinton envious--"Change is inevitable!" and in so many words, they weren't good workers anyway.

Dude asks how do you measure success then?

CEO "by the price of the stock."

By the way, people in my dept. weren't very happy this quarter because nobody received a raise. Of course this was so that GBF suits could increase profits and the bottom line...and it worked!

Needless to say, a few of the new guys are thinking about going back
to their old jobs.

two months ago, a 28-year veteran engineer jumped from the second-floor in protest of the increasing pressure to do more for less, on a Sunday (so the security guards would find him), after strapping his neck to the guard rail and diving. Needless to say, it was a violent end.

In the final analysis, it's nothing personal against the middle class of America...

JUST BIZ!

eburbed Says:

> Why Mountain View’s firefighters, who make just a
> little less than some Google employees, choose to
> live out there, is beyond me.

Most Bay Area firefighters make more than most Google employees…

I don’t know about the Mountain View schedule, but the reason many guys live so far away is that they only have to commute 5 times a month.

Many departments work a 48 hour shifts then have 4 days in a row off…

"25 year vacation in Florida"

Yeah that about sums it up. Hip replacements (so you can golf better?) are pretty expensive, ya' know. All you whiners get back to work, pay your taxes and stfu so as not to tarnish these "golden" years.

*Golden Years, defined as having to get up every 2 hours to use the bathroom. SEE YA!

Holliday,

Great (and scary) post! Very revealing.

Exportation of all manufacturing to Chindia

Actually mfg exporting began in mid 80s and completed by early 90s in SV.
Today its Engineering. Overall if you dont export the companies and all jobs
would vanish from SV.

Its more of survive or die, very little to do with bonus.

FAB,

It's the tip of the iceberg. Most of those "public servants" also are contractors and wannabe flippers during their 4 days off. And bitch about the taxes they have to pay! Most cheat. Yeah I said MOST. Talk about a kick in the teeth.