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GC, I really think Peter has some good points about very liberal work visas.
I propose that fences are antithetical to human nature, and especially to American nature.
To this, I say:
"Good fences make good neighbors"
--Robert Frost
The completely open-borders policy might work great for two countries that are socioeconomically very similar, like U.S. and Canada, but is nuts for Mexico & the U.S. I do not view a boder fence as a magic 'silver bullet". Just a common sense measure that, along with other common-sense measures *can* make a difference (less welfare for illegals, consistent enforcement of immigration law, hard-to-fake employee IDs, penalties for employers, etc.). If we can afford to send XX thousand troops to Iraq for extended duty, then we can afford to do a better job of protecting our borders.
There are so many illegals doing menial jobs because the middle class America wants to live the life of the Vanderbilts. I am pretty sure if the average American family lives a frugal life, there won’t be any illegals in this country, because there won’t be any jobs for them.
Ahh... the old "they do the jobs Americans just won't do" canard. GC, exactly WHO do think did these jobs (back when they paid better wages) before our de-facto open borders policy went into full effect? Who does them NOW in places with low immigration rates (Australia, NZ)?
And exactly 27 years ago we had the Cuban boatlifts. This is what I mean by politicizing illegal immigration. Some wetbacks are welcomed, some are not.
There are so many illegals doing menial jobs because the middle class America wants to live the life of the Vanderbilts. I am pretty sure if the average American family lives a frugal life, there won’t be any illegals in this country, because there won’t be any jobs for them.
If decent wages are paid, they will be filled by legal immigrants, there will be a supply of legal immigrants/part timers that will work in McDonalds, make up hotel rooms etc. Many of the fast food places wouldn't even hire anybody that is not a migrant (I see a lot of Spanish help wanted signs in Chinese restaurants).
And for those of you in SF who think, immigration wasn't always a controversy here, please take a second to reflect on the history of China Town.
HARM,
Australia has a higher immigration rate than the US, the total quota for immigration is around 1% of the total population, each year. I don't think we get 30M new immigrants each year.
Australia's biggest advantage is, they are not bordered by any country. Canada is blessed in the same way, they only need to worry about American refugees :-)
Canada is blessed in the same way, they only need to worry about American refugees
There were a lot of Portuguese migrants working in Toronto in construction, many were deported and some advocated started rallies with slogans like "nobody is illegal". The problem I have with that is, if you say "nobody is illegal", then what do you do, open up to anyone and everyone that wants to come. It seems to be the immigrant advocate and the far-left's position is so extreme that it does not make any sense to me.
So if we allow all the illegal immigrants to become citizens, then by definition there are these jobs that no legal immigrants will do, then who's going to fill these jobs? There will be no fix if the employers are never penalized.
"I think every American teenage ought to be sent to a third-world country to live for 2-5 years. Live just like the locals. No special positions, no stipends."
You know, the kids who did that may look back on it as the time of their lives. There is a bonding and sense of worth caused by such a struggle that would not come from persuing the flashiest car or ipod.
Question for those on the west coast. Are they offering over there like they are here on Long Island? $40k free money for a down payment and another $20k to fix it up; it's insane!!!!!
Want to seal the border? Take a lesson from the pros.
Encourage Mexico to go "Peoples Republic" Then the new General Secretary and Politburo will effectively seal it airtight from the south side. Just like the DDR's anti-imperialist wall.
Allah,
That is insane. If they quit handing out money, property priced will come down to affordable levels.
I believe that such programs are designed to keep house prices high, not create affordability for the "poor."
Allah,
That is insane. If they quit handing out money, property priced will come down to affordable levels.
I believe that such programs are designed to keep house prices high, not create affordability for the “poor.â€
Precisely! They are offering this to anyone who makes up to 30% more than the median income which means not just the poor...and that is why I wrote this.
Are they doing something like this on the west coast?
I worked in England for a summer and the visa form asked me to indicate my race. The choices were:
white
black
asian
irish
I kid you not. I felt like an Arab arriving at JFK.
Patrick
When I last arrived at SFO, the ICE official asked what my religion was.
I could not believe what I was hearing. This was a Filipino officer. I told him I did not see that question on the declaration form :)
Australia has a higher immigration rate than the US, the total quota for immigration is around 1% of the total population, each year. I don’t think we get 30M new immigrants each year.
OO,
While the above may be true for each nation as a whole, immigration as a % of California's population would be much, much higher. CA, as a border state (and chief entry piont of choice from Mexico) absorbs a far greater share of immigrants, illegal and otherwise, than any other. I seriously doubt if ND or Montana gets a whole lot of immigration. And if you factor in children of illegals here (who automatically get citizenship), the numbers climb a lot higher.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
United States Net migration rate:
3.05 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2007 est.)
Australia Net migration rate:
3.78 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2007 est.)
Even if Lake Michigan has an average depth of 2 feet, you can still drown in the middle of it. Lies, damned lies and statistics...
Actually, OO's figures were wrong. 30 million new immigrants would represent a +10% net migration rate, not a 1% rate.
I think every American teenage ought to be sent to a third-world country to live for 2-5 years. Live just like the locals. No special positions, no stipends.
Excuse me, but when did anyone here say anything about life in other countries NOT being tough? Actually, that's part of the reason for not wanting completely open borders: most of us already here do not want the U.S. to become yet another Third World hellhole (just like the countires these people are trying to escape from).
they laugh at America for allowing them to invade and breed like roaches while we pay the way.
I don't want to be the PC police, but that was a sickeningly racist comment.
Betty,
I am apparently the person who does NOT believe that they buy social security numbers.. which shows you didn't do me the respect of bothering to read what I actually wrote. Before offering me your blessings why not doing me the courtesy of reading before responding. I simply asked you to demonstrate *how* you know they actually bought these SSNs instead of one of the other less nefarious ways in which they may have obtained them, legal or illegal. Not all "borrowed" SSNs are cases of identity theft.
I've had my SSN and credit used in identity fraud also, by the way. About 2 years ago. And it had nothing to do with Mexicans or illegal immigrants. And moreover, it was a pain in the ass but ultimately cost me $0 and actually caused my credit to end up 10 pts higher than before it happened (perhaps coincidentally).
I had an uncle end up in an identity snafu too, which was much harder for him to shake. Somehow he got mixed up with someone else of the exact same name and somewhat similar SSN who'd defaulted on a mortgage. You know, that took him over a year to clear up, and cost him a couple thousand $ in lawyer fees to force resolution (and he filed a small claims action to recover the fees which was remanded to superior court, so he couldn't pursue that either).
Off Topic
Have been following a house in Alamo which is being sold by our previous realtor. It has been listed twice since last November at $2,699,000.
Price dropped to $2,399,000 last week. It is now only $400,000 over Zillow's zestimate.
What a deal !
Actually, that’s part of the reason for not wanting completely open borders: most of us already here do not want the U.S. to become yet another Third World hellhole (just like the countires these people are trying to escape from).
It sounds like, basically, you just don't want to see any poor people. Better for them to be even poorer in their native country than come to the US and offend your sensibilities.
Glen,
If you're so in favor of completely open borders, then why don't you welcome some of these fine folks into your house --and volunteer to feed, clothe, insure and employ them too, while you're at it.
HARM
Walls and secure borders are not the same thing. Many dissimilar countries have very secure borders yet don't build walls or fences.
Borders are porous. They always will be. The challenge is to secure that against critical, defensible threats, like from armies or surging mobs.
Building giant walls has, at best, a rapidly diminishing return on investment no matter how you measure it. I'm all for some of your other proposals, like holding employers accountable.
As an employer myself, I find it doubly criminal that other employers utilize illegals, which hurts honest employers as well as taxpaying society while they profit and smugly claim they're anti-illegal immigrant.
HARM,
All else equal, if I were looking for a roommate, employee, or opportunity to do charity work, I would be just as likely to choose an immigrant as a US citizen. I fail to see why I shouldn't.
For the record (before someone else puts more words in my mouth), I am not against all forms of immigration or for closing the borders, or for means-testing all immigrants. That's ridiculous. I would even be in favor of expanding current immigration quotas/limits, and allowing more work visas, if WE WOULD JUST START ENFORCING IMMIGRATION LAWS AND PUNISHING OFFENDERS.
Glen,
Good for you. Problem is, when national immigration policy is based on weepy bleeding heart "oh, how sad, they're so poor" emotions, what you get is an uncontrollable and unassimilated flood of "diversity" along your border states, along with all the wonderful "benefits" it brings (poverty, high crime rate, lower wages, overwhelmed deteriorating infrastructure, high uninsured rates, diseases like TB that were once eradicated here, etc., etc.
@Randy H,
Fair enough. I suspect that removing eligibility for welfare subsidies from illegals and a few well publicized cases of punishing employers would quickly "get the word out" and might just make building a wall unnecessary, or at least, a lot less necessary.
HARM,
you are right, I can't even do simple arithmetics. Still, I doubt if we get 3M net inflow. But you are right in pointing out that CA is the major receptor of all these immigrants (which is why I always think that the Pacific Northwest is a much nicer place).
I am not pro illegal immigration either, I earned my status and hope others to do the same. I am particularly against importing old parents into this country, even on a legal basis. Elderly parents have no reasons to be here unless they can entirely fund their own medicare and retirement. But I just think border control will never work.
We have to be smarter at it. One of the proposals I've been thinking is to provide subsidy to multi-national corporations if they outsource jobs to Mexico instead of China or India, because if China or India have employment problems, it is much harder for Chinese or Indians to get on a boat and set sail to America. We have more vested interest in keeping our backyard, Mexico, stable and fully employed at a decent wage than that of China or India.
The subsidy is just a redirection of public resources we would otherwise spend if these Mexican illegals come and stay.
@ Malcolm
What can I say? Truth is stranger than fiction. ...shocking.
I read your site too. Bam!
Oooops! I meant @Allah
What can I say? Truth is stranger than fiction. …shocking.
I read your site too. Bam!
We have to be smarter at it. One of the proposals I’ve been thinking is to provide subsidy to multi-national corporations if they outsource jobs to Mexico instead of China or India, because if China or India have employment problems, it is much harder for Chinese or Indians to get on a boat and set sail to America. We have more vested interest in keeping our backyard, Mexico, stable and fully employed at a decent wage than that of China or India.
The subsidy is just a redirection of public resources we would otherwise spend if these Mexican illegals come and stay.
Ha ha --now there's some out-of-the-box thinking. And not a bad idea at that.
Well NAFTA was supposed to be that subsidy by removing trade tarrifs.
The corruption in Mexico is so bad you almost would rather deal with China. They at least speak English, but their government actively is promoting commerce and growth. The Mexican government is more like dealing with the mafia. Every single thing is a shakedown to those buggers. The whole culture is screwed up to where you would rather say forget it. When I was starting out in life, I worked for a company which made dog leashes and we had a little maquiladora. It was a joke, my boss told me all kinds of stories about every semi official with a badge coming by for their payoff. He just made up a name of someone who sounded important like Mr Castanza and said that would sometimes keep them in check. I can't figure out how the whole country hasn't collapsed, I know it is on the verge.
I will no longer go into Mexico for genuine fear unless I am with a Mexican friend. It is really dangerous, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I told you guys how I helped build a house down there some months ago. I literally don't know how there aren't real epidemics down there. The houses on this beautiful hillside had no plumbing. Each house has a little shed over a 10 foot deep open hole which is their toilet. I have no idea how the land can sustain that many people constantly crapping in it. I will never forget going down to that part.
Have there been reliable studies on the net economic benefit/cost to the United States of legal immigrants versus illegal immigrants? I recall reading before of studies that show substantial net benefits from legal immigration but substantial net costs from illegal immigration.
Immigration policy should be like a company's hiring policy. You don't hire everyone who submits an application. You look for quality. You pick applicants who will add value rather than drain resources.
In the past, the United States was terrific at stealing the best and brightest from other countries. They would come here as students and wind up staying to the benefit of U.S. industries. Over the years, I have known many highly talented foreign students who ultimately returned home because they could not obtain a work visa or greencard. Ironically, many left precisely because they were law abiding when, if they were less concerned about the law, they easily could have just remained illegally.
I will no longer go into Mexico for genuine fear unless I am with a Mexican friend. It is really dangerous, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
I will only go to Mexico on a round-trip cruise. And I may not even get off the boat at ports-of-call.
It is interesting to see that the first defense (or last refuge?) of those opposed to immigration controls is: "Do you really want to live in a police state?"
There are many ways to enforce current immigration laws without having roadside checkpoints.
As a (fully documented legal) immigrant, I have absolutely NO problem with the government asking me to produce evidence of my legal status when I desire access to taxpayer-funded government benefits. Sure, it is an inconvenience, but is perfectly reasonable if I am asking the government to pay for something.
I am not surprised that there are people who pretend that this is some great affront to their dignity, when it is clear to the meanest intelligence that it is merely a ploy to abuse benefits to which they are not entitled. What amazes me is that the this country's government actually puts up with this. Only in America!
SP
I will only go to Mexico on a round-trip cruise. And I may not even get off the boat at ports-of-call.
I was in Cancun few years ago and a lot of the restaurants in the hotel zone were really expensive, the waiters were making some serious $$$ in tips, I never saw any women waiting on us.
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Hi there,
I LIVE in southern CA, I’ve been reading these blogs and reports now for a few months.. AND I have to say that I have seen first hand the subprime types of loans and What type of people they are lending it to. What I mean by “first hand†is that I have friends, yes ,very good friends, that ARE illegal Aliens and they have gotten loans that I would NEVER have even considered… AND I made Alot more money than they do.. The sad thing is that before they got the loans, they informed me of their plan and I thought in my mind that ‘they will NEVER be qualified for one, because I know their alien status and I knew how little they madeâ€â€¦ Guess what? I was wrong. On top of that, after they got the loan, I was the one that ‘read; it over for them to make sure that they understood what the monthly payments were gonna be and what type of loan they were getting in to. I advised them against it, BUT they ALL took the loans anyway.
So #1, I am caught in a very tough position. Yes, these are Very close friends of mine. I love them very much and I don’t judge them by their legal status, BUT I am so INFURIATED by our system that they would allow illegal aliens to get a loan to buy a home in the US whereas the real citizens (the legal, law abiding ones) get nailed for abiding by the lending guidlines and not taking on loans like these. #3, DONâ€T buy into this “its the low-income, hispanics, that Don’t understand english that are being taken advantage of… NO NO NO NO NO.. It is the other way around. THEY are taking advantage of our system and basically laughing all the way to the bank. And with the current ‘Bailout plan’ .. They seem like they will keep on laughing to the bank, because many o them will be ‘bailed out’..
What type of loans did they get?.. ALL of them 100% NO money down, stated income..and yes.. adjustable blah blah blah.
NOW how did they get these loans? Well on the loan documents their is one page that asks you if you are a permanent resident or a US citizen… And you know what?.. The bank or the loan officer just tell them to ‘MARK;’ the box that says that they are US citizen because then they will not ask to see proof. If you mark the box that says ‘permanent residentâ€, they will ask to see a copy of your green card, etc.. proof..
AND how did these illegal aliens get a VALID social security number so that you can check their credit history?… THEY BUY ONE. (How do I know?.. They tell me.. Remember we are very close friends.. I even know how much they pay for a good social security number..again.. they tell me ) Yes it IS ALL illegal.. ALL OF IT. SO all of you out there, I recommend you CHECK your credit reports Often.
You see its a WIN WIN situation for the illegals, because they got into the homes with NO MONEY down, they did it with a fake (bought) social security number… SO what’s the worse that can happen to them? Yes, they lose a home that they should not have been allowed to own AND their credit gets ruined.. OOPS.. NO not their credit.. Some other poor person’s credit gets ruined… ALL they have to do is BUY another Social Security NUMBER.. Do you GET the PICTURE yet???? AND the BEST that could happen to them if they took this NO RISK gamble… ?? Is that they WALK away with Hundreds of thousands of Dollars in Funny Real Estate Money.. So Can you BLAME These people for taking this OPPORTUNITY of a lifetime?
How do I know?.. Like I said I have VERY dear friends that are illegal aliens. AGain I love them very much. I don’t blame them for wanting to be in this country and doing whatever it takes to make it here.. ITS just a SHAME that our US govt. are NOT able to control nor protect its citizens. In fact , we are making being a citizen very unattractive when you see how much BENEFITS being and illegal has.
So PLEASE dont buy into the poor victim stories… They are NOT victims.. And please don’t blame the appraisers for it… A house will not be SOLD by they appraised value alone. You have to have a willing BUYER to pay the Price. We are being taken advantage and used and WE don’t even know it. Its just another strategy.. by whom.. I don’t know. But if I were them, I would be smiling too.. and telling ALL of my family members to HURRY and JET accross that border.. NO MATTER what it costs, CUZ life is REALLY good here in the US.
Huh, I could go on and on and on.. but I will stop here.. because we are talking specifically about real estate here.. AND frankly I’m tired.. tired of all this upside down mess. Do you know What the word ‘illegal’ means? Let me give you an example: It is illegal to murder someone.. What happens if you do?.. You go to jail for a long long time.. Another example. It is illegal drive past the speed limit.. If you are caught you PAY by getting a ticket…. get the picture?…
OK.. here WE are PAYING someone who has broken the law AND proposing other laws to bail them out.. in otherwords.. SUPPORT their illegal actions… Lord help us… What an UPSIDE down mess.
D.
#housing