patrick.net

RayAmerica says

As Liberals continue in their quest to build a Social Welfare state here in America, Europe continues to collapse under a sea of red ink ….
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Euro+under+siege+Portugal+hits+panic+button/3831814/story.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/15/greek-deficit-bigger-than-thought
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704584504575616033310586068.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird

Can you at least try to find middle ground, do you want to put the elderly, mentally ill out on the streets? Or are you willing to reform what we have with stricter requirements?

Clarence 13X says

Can you at least try to find middle ground, do you want to put the elderly, mentally ill out on the streets? Or are you willing to reform what we have with stricter requirements?

I am 100% in favor of the government helping those that cannot help themselves. For everyone else, if they want something from the government, they should perform some type of public service. Few things, IMO, are more damaging than the lesson that a person can get something for nothing in this world. Unfortunately, that's exactly the lesson the government has taught to literally millions of people ... to their own destruction.

Ray,

Let's take a quadraplegic. Should they have mandatory government-provided healthcare? You can't exactly get them out picking up trash you know or digging ditches.

Vicente says

Let’s take a quadraplegic. Should they have mandatory government-provided healthcare?

Yes. People that are beyond helping themselves should be taken care of. It that case, I think all their needs should be provided for, including housing, care, etc.

RayAmerica says

Clarence 13X says

Can you at least try to find middle ground, do you want to put the elderly, mentally ill out on the streets? Or are you willing to reform what we have with stricter requirements?

I am 100% in favor of the government helping those that cannot help themselves. For everyone else, if they want something from the government, they should perform some type of public service. Few things, IMO, are more damaging than the lesson that a person can get something for nothing in this world. Unfortunately, that’s exactly the lesson the government has taught to literally millions of people … to their own destruction.

Exactly, the requirements for these programs need to be increased. Plus the length of term should be shortened for repeat usage within a 1 year, 5 year and 10 year period. No one should be on welfare more than 1 or 2 years out of a 10 year period. If they are, then I suspect that they are either lazy or mentally ill. I am for supporting a mentally ill person for life as we know the damage to their mind is most like un-repairable.

RayAmerica says

Vicente says

Let’s take a quadraplegic. Should they have mandatory government-provided healthcare?

Yes. People that are beyond helping themselves should be taken care of. It that case, I think all their needs should be provided for, including housing, care, etc.

I think your right on with your points on social welfare.

Clarence 13X says

No one should be on welfare more than 1 or 2 years out of a 10 year period. If they are, then I suspect that they are either lazy or mentally ill

This statement is of course based on a sound study of actual economics and employment patterns. Its not just a figure you've, say, pulled out of your ass, right?...

Clarence 13X says

I am for supporting a mentally ill person

I'd be curious how you define what constitutes 'mentally ill', whats the cutoff? Because when you put it the way you have been it sure seems to me like an arbitrary jerk off definition. Jus sayin'...

I think anyone who can't support themselves should be shipped over to your guy's places so you can just serve them up for dinner as you please. You could keep them all in a big pen in your back yard and select the meatiest ones... and every once in a while you could have a big ol' barbecue and invite the neighborhood... and the great thing is that you'd never run out! If things get lean you could just stiffen up the ol' 'mentally ill' definition and new ones would come pouring back into the pen...

The problem with socialism is that it’s mostly socialism for the very rich.
Why do we keep taxing the common people to bail out failed bankers?
Why do the very rich pay only 15% income tax on the interest and dividends they skim off the work of others, while the actual workers pay 28% on honest labor?

Thats how too often socialism works. Soviet Union wasn't wildly different. Perhaps word "rich" isn't the right one though.

A better word might be, "well connected" and runs the government. Soviet Union had the same thing. There money didn't matter, since paper currency was meaningless anyway... it was all in who you are connected with at government level.

Nomograph says

Why do we keep taxing the common people to bail out failed bankers?

Unfortunately, it’s because people need banks. If the banking system failed, it’s unlikely your website would even be here.

Most small banks were closed off and sold at firesale prices to the banks that were bailed out. So we essentially gave large institutions money to survive and gobble up smaller failing banks.
Bailouts were not necessary, in fact our lives would have been fine without Goldman Sachs being there. If you note, bail outs were very selective.
They didn't bail out GS competitors such as LB or BS...

kentm says

I’d be curious how you define what constitutes ‘mentally ill’

An illustration of "mentallly ill," posted by an obviously very disturbed person:

kentm says

I think anyone who can’t support themselves should be shipped over to your guy’s places so you can just serve them up for dinner as you please. You could keep them all in a big pen in your back yard and select the meatiest ones… and every once in a while you could have a big ol’ barbecue and invite the neighborhood… and the great thing is that you’d never run out! If things get lean you could just stiffen up the ol’ ‘mentally ill’ definition and new ones would come pouring back into the pen…

Greek leftists take to the streets and riot in response to the Government's plan to cut spending ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6BD2FH20101215

The problem with socialism is that it’s mostly socialism for the very rich.
Why do we keep taxing the common people to bail out failed bankers?
Why do the very rich pay only 15% income tax on the interest and dividends they skim off the work of others, while the actual workers pay 28% on honest labor?

I'm quoting Patrick because a lot of it is very agreeable.

Human society has been evolving, but we are still very primitive. Most people know how to live in Feudalism, a plutocratic aligarchy. But Democracy or socialism? Frankly thats too advanced for most people, most are still primitive baboons stuck in 17th century.

Socialism is something to strive for, but it won't be very successful for a while since lets face it, as long as we have leadership that is not transparent we invite a dictatorship ran for the benefit of those in charge.

Chris_In_LosAngeles says

Human society has been evolving, but we are still very primitive.

How exactly is human society "evolving." From my vantage point, I see an incredible increase in violence, continuous wars being fought all over the planet, America's prison population is so high they are releasing prisoners early, etc. Crimes against innocent children has skyrocketed in recent years. When I was a kid living in a city environment, the thought of danger never even crossed my mind. Today, parents have to guard their kids in public to the point they can't let them out of their sight for even a minute for fear of an abduction.

Chris_In_LosAngeles says

Socialism is something to strive for

On the contrary, socialism plays to the base nature of mankind. It discourages thrift, hard work and self sacrifice at the expense of others. It is a failed system that eventually ALWAYS runs out of other people's money. It cannot work, because human nature will not allow it to work. Human beings are basically lazy and generally, will always look for an easy way to gain something for nothing. That's the primary reason for the popularity of state run lotteries, etc.

RayAmerica says

When I was a kid living in a city environment, the thought of danger never even crossed my mind.

Because you were naive. Good thing you never ran into guys like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish

You'd probably have been a trusting succulent little plum for people like him.

You could argue we are TOO informed I suppose and thus paranoid, but that's a side effect in my view and we are actually safer and more responsible.

Vicente says

You could argue we are TOO informed I suppose and thus paranoid, but that’s a side effect in my view and we are actually safer and more responsible.

A typical, well thought out statement by you. Unfortunately, it's so stupid it doesn't deserve a response.

RayAmerica says

Chris_In_LosAngeles says

Human society has been evolving, but we are still very primitive.

How exactly is human society “evolving.” From my vantage point, I see an incredible increase in violence, continuous wars being fought all over the planet, America’s prison population is so high they are releasing prisoners early, etc. Crimes against innocent children has skyrocketed in recent years. When I was a kid living in a city environment, the thought of danger never even crossed my mind. Today, parents have to guard their kids in public to the point they can’t let them out of their sight for even a minute for fear of an abduction.
Chris_In_LosAngeles says

Socialism is something to strive for

On the contrary, socialism plays to the base nature of mankind. It discourages thrift, hard work and self sacrifice at the expense of others. It is a failed system that eventually ALWAYS runs out of other people’s money. It cannot work, because human nature will not allow it to work. Human beings are basically lazy and generally, will always look for an easy way to gain something for nothing. That’s the primary reason for the popularity of state run lotteries, etc.

Ray, socialism does not discourage hard work. It does in the minds of Americans because we are a society living in a box of "capitalism" that we often miss the nature of human kind. A society where most resources are controlled by the few and the rest have to sacrifice their lives to get crumbs to trickle down. Socialism discourages drudgery, and promotes advancement. Most of the jobs in US (and around the world) are just to enrich a few at the expense to the workers who sacrifice time and happiness in drudgery (since profit is unpaid wages for labor). There is no social benefit to it, of course people will appear lazy. Why should everyone be regimented to work for someone else just because they were not born in a wealthy family?

There is a better way, and it will eventually happen. It just takes time for humans to evolve to it. We achieve as a society, we create as a society, but only a few at the top profit. And besides you are seeing capitalism slowly fail, our business cycles become more and more frequent, more and more permanently unemployed... not a system you can sustain for it lacks human purpose.

Capitalism: From each according to his gullibility to each according to his greed.... bible warned us about a system like that and its dire consequences.

Chris .... for a case study check out the old Soviet Union. You sound like Karl Marx. Socialism sounds great on paper, but it is a complete fraud. The old USSR, like all totalitarian governments, had its ruling elite that enjoyed the fruits of the laborers. Virtually everyone else suffered. My wife & I know a couple that lived there and came here as a result of Carter's deal that brought numerous Jewish Russians to the USA. They have told us repeatedly what it was REALLY like. Just one example: housing was provided by the state for all its citizens. Sounds great, doesn't it? Unfortunately, their "housing" was 17 adults in a single apartment with one single bathroom that serviced the entire floor! Another example: constant shortages due entirely to the managed market by the government. Russia was known as the "Breadbasket of Europe" prior to the revolution due to its ability to export wheat. After the revolution, it required huge imports of wheat in order to feed its people. Churchill accurately said: “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” Take away the incentives to produce and provide for yourself and you remove the advancement of society.

RayAmerica says

Socialism sounds great on paper, but it is a complete fraud.

Tell that to the Norwegians and Swedes, LOL.

What a clown you are. You and your clown Bircher ideologies.

Troy says

Tell that to the Norwegians and Swedes, LOL.
What a clown you are. You and your clown ideologies.

For every TEMPORARY apparent "success," there are numerous failures that can be found beginning with the Left's idol state the good old USSR. Take a look at Europe and the chaos that is spreading there as money to support Socialism continues to disappear. The tiny, little states, combined, such as you cite aren't even half as big as the failed socialist state of California. The Swedes also have a sound currency and make an honest attempt to pay as they go. Can the same be said for the USA?
Another slight little difference between the tiny little states that you cite and the USA is military expenditures. They have virtually none and can direct more of their money into their social programs. You might want to look into what their taxes are. Even better, move their and report back your learned findings.

RayAmerica says

Chris …. for a case study check out the old Soviet Union....[ won't quote whole thing, posts get too long that way, I did read it all though]...

Thanks Ray, I have read "Das Kapital", which is as you know by Marx, and is why I often times sound similar to the man.

I wouldn't rely on USSR as a case study. That wasn't socialism. Socialism is much more utopian than our present state of social development allows. We really aren't a society that can do it. If we implement it tomorrow, it will be very corrupt and won't work. It's an ideal to strive for though.

And capitalism fails so spectacularly it needs a "socialist" bailout and nearly sinks the whole globalist mess it was pushing. Yay for capitalism!

RayAmerica says

Troy says

Tell that to the Norwegians and Swedes, LOL.

What a clown you are. You and your clown ideologies.

For every TEMPORARY apparent “success,” there are numerous failures that can be found beginning with the Left’s idol state the good old USSR. Take a look at Europe and the chaos that is spreading there as money to support Socialism continues to disappear. The tiny, little states, combined, such as you cite aren’t even half as big as the failed socialist state of California. The Swedes also have a sound currency and make an honest attempt to pay as they go. Can the same be said for the USA?

Ray US has been on a very long decline. We have enjoyed a lot of prosperity at expense to national deficit, but you take that away and we are not going to look so good anymore. As long as other societies believe in the "value" of a dollar we'll stay afloat. But bring in an inflation and I don't think US can survive.

Troy says

You and your clown Bircher ideologies.

To be against the failed tenets of socialism automatically defines one as a "Bircher?" And you call me a clown? Thanks for the laugh. You really ought to join the circus and get paid for your act.

Also another thing about socialism.

What America calls "socialistic policies" are not socialism. In US it is truly just redistribution, thats not socialism. Thats one thing that is never made clear in all the arguments about socialism.

Let's see... Birchers:

"The John Birch Society is an American radical right-wing political advocacy group that supports anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom."

I don't think RayAmerica could stomach stooping to join such a bunch of pansies, he's HARDCORE and a machine-gun poster. Posts that change the world.

RayAmerica says

The Swedes also have a sound currency and make an honest attempt to pay as they go. Can the same be said for the USA?

We were doing pretty good until 2001, when the looters and the skimmers took over.

Well, the skimmers began taking over ca 1995, but you get the point.

Vicente says

“The John Birch Society is an American radical right-wing political advocacy group that supports anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom.”

Be specific ... what exactly is it that you take exception with the above.

Vicente says

radical right-wing political

Vicente says

that supports anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom

I never realized you'll be considered "radical" if you support "anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom." The fact that world communism has the blood of up to 100 million innocent victims on its collective hands ... well ... opposing that is RADICAL! If that's radical, what's that say about all those lefties that supported the good old Soviet Union and worshipped (and continue to do so) at the altar of Mao (history's worst mass murderer)?

Troy says

We were doing pretty good until 2001, when the looters and the skimmers took over.

Refresh my memory; what year was it that Clinton signed NAFTA? And what year was it that Clinton, et all pushed through the repeal of Glass-Steagall? I'm only guessing, of course, but didn't all that happen before 2001?

NAFTA ... I hate(d) NAFTA. Alot

I voted for Perot.

Conservative values sure do keep on keeping on.

RayAmerica says

I never realized you’ll be considered “radical” if you support “anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom.” The fact that world communism has the blood of up to 100 million innocent victims on its collective hands … well … opposing that is RADICAL! If that’s radical, what’s that say about all those lefties that supported the good old Soviet Union and worshipped (and continue to do so) at the altar of Mao (history’s worst mass murderer)?

...all of which has nothing to do with economic policy. Wasn't that what this post was about, sort of, at one time?

"radical" is nothing that you personally support. Just like when you're driving, all the people going slower than you are stupid and all those going faster are assholes.

and you spelled worshiped incorrectly.

I think all the financial problems that so many of our states, local governments and federal government are experiencing is directly linked to the social/welfare costs that have bankrupted our entire nation. Now we have to cut, cut and cut in order to get the country back to fiscal sanity. Too many people (and Michael Moore is one) think there is no end to the money tree, and all we have to do is TAX the right people. It isn't going to work folks. We are running out of money .... exactly what happens eventually when governments buy their power via handouts while using other people's money to do so.

http://www.bergonia.org/Gov/socialism.htm

RayAmerica says

I never realized you’ll be considered “radical” if you support “anti-communism, limited government, a Constitutional Republic and personal freedom.”

The endpoint of it all is the Sovereign Citizens movement. Which says it's OK to reject most laws & taxation as unjust, and leads them to thinking kidnapping government agents is A-OK. Here's a few of your "fellow travelers" Ray:

Five people in the Fairbanks area were arrested Thursday by state and federal law enforcement on charges connected with an alleged plot to kidnap or kill state troopers and a Fairbanks judge, according to the Alaska State Troopers. ...... Fairbanks Police Chief Loren Zager said the operation involved multiple police actions related to Fairbanks-area members of the "sovereign citizen" movement.

http://www.adn.com/2011/03/10/1748613/man-who-threatened-judge.html

Vicente says

Which says it’s OK to reject most laws & taxation as unjust, and leads them to thinking kidnapping government agents is A-OK. Here’s a few of your “fellow travelers” Ray:

I don't have a clue what you are referring to when you say "fellow travelers." I don't now, and never have, advocated violence in any way, shape or form (unless of course someone is attempting to enter my peaceful abode with ill intentions at 3:00 AM ... then they'll be introduced to Mr. Ruger). It's a real stretch to attempt to associate an anti big government type like me with the nutcases that you cite in your post.

Nomograph says

It’s a real stretch for someone who spent his life working for the government, collects government entitlements, and is on government welfare, to call himself an “anti big government type.”

Whom exactly did you have in mind? It can't be me. I spent very little time working for local government in an administrative capacity as a supervisor (about 2 years) in a relatively small department, just enough time to learn firsthand how incredibly corrupt, wasteful and inept government is. As far as "collecting government entitlements," I have never collected any type of unemployment or government subsidy. In fact, years ago, I once qualified for unemployment, and (believe it or not), I turned it down.

Nomograph says

(a) You spent “very little time working”, which doesn’t surprise me. I’m sure you are a very lazy and selfish man.
(b) As the supervisor, you led a corrupt, wasteful and inept department.

Guilty as charged your honor.

Nomograph says

Now all you have is your government entitlements and AM talk radio that tells you that nothing is your fault; you are a victim.

Do you have any suggestions as to where I might get cheap batteries for my radio?

Nomograph says

Walmart, where you do all your other shopping.

Great idea! And I get to visit my wife. She loves her job as a greeter. I always told her many, many times, and you can aks her, that smile and winning personality is going to take her far. Would you happen to know what isle the batteries are in?

Socialism is very difficult to implement well, I have not seen it done anywhere yet where it was successful. Frankly I do not see how it can work unless we change human nature.

1) Usually it involves central planning. And that in itself is an obvious problem. When government pushes a single idea and it isn't the best (as it usually isn't) overtime it fails. When free market capitalism tries tons of different ideas the good ideas work out and the bad once fail.... without destroying everyone else in the process with it. Housing bubble, hate to say it, was a failure of our government sponsoring it through FN/FR and backing gambling with taxpayer dollars. Big oops for socialism there.

2) It takes away a lot of freedom and drive to succeed. Under socialism everyone works under the same system, if you want to try something different you cannot. And certain percentage of the population will find ways to abuse social programs so they don't have to work. You can see a lot of that in Los Angeles area. Just check Reseda, Canoga Park, Tarzana, etc...

3) At the end it turns into a societal structure where those who run the government end up owning everyone else and becomes corrupt. Soviet Union, a system that started for the people, ended up completely corrupt and dictatorial. And as long as central government can be strong (and it does in socialism) this will always occur. End result is that the people at the top get all the perks, while everyone in the middle has to work and struggle their way through life to pay for it all.

ChrisLA says

I have not seen it done anywhere yet where it was successful

Define your terms. Norway has the highest per-capita GDP, the highest happiness, and the lowest credit default swaps of anyone.

Looks successful to me.

Housing bubble, hate to say it, was a failure of our government sponsoring it through FN/FR and backing gambling with taxpayer dollars. Big oops for socialism there.

Utter bullshit, a prime zombie lie from the right. Fannie and Freddie didn't cause homes to zoom up to $700,000 in Hollister. That was the free market enterprise working its magic of pump & dump and taking advantage of the crimogenic conditions caused by the abandonment of the market to its own devices by the regulatory-captured administration, 2002-2006.

"Taxpayer dollars" didn't fund this debt bubble:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT

much of that is pure private debt, especially during the 2003-1H05 time period where the system went out of control.

Under socialism everyone works under the same system, if you want to try something different you cannot.

well fuck why are we having this argument. Norway, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Finland, France, Canada do not operate like this yet their economies are quite socialized in comparison to ours.

Maybe if we started referring to Norway as a "mixed" economy we could lose our fear of the red menace?

End result is that the people at the top get all the perks, while everyone in the middle has to work and struggle their way through life to pay for it all.

A people get the government they deserve.