patrick.net

It's missing the sequel where Hank bails them all out and fucks the rest of us.

Exactly - Mr. Bulldog of Wall Street still gets a $50,000,000 bonus, paid for by the taxpayer thanks to his deal with Mr. Obama and Ms. Pelosi, while the rest of us see our retirements float away on a cloud of devaluation.

Actually, TARP was passed under Bush.

JimAtLaw says

Exactly - Mr. Bulldog of Wall Street still gets a $50,000,000 bonus,

Small fries and a easy scapegoat. Only a few people at the top in Wall Street made such bonuses and they make up a dinky amount overall.

If you want to get to the heart of the issue and throw out real large numbers, try using Realtors who pocketed 6% commission right off the top of the 100s of Billions in Sales. Not to mention the cronism of the NAR in Congress dwarfs Wall Street by many hundreds of miles.

We have nearly 10 years of scum sucking sleazing toxic sales based on lies and fraud, and yet no one wants to 'claw back' these billions in commissions from realtors for time bomb sales they made. And even today we have realtor sleaziods running around justifing high prices, esp on "fortress towns" and talking about a "recovery" in prices.

We are not going to get anywhere until we start dealing with some real issues here...
Yes, keep believing in that same sales pitch, "there are other higher bidders, will you go higher with your last and final bid".

thomas.wong1986 says

JimAtLaw says

Exactly - Mr. Bulldog of Wall Street still gets a $50,000,000 bonus,

Small fries and a easy scapegoat. Only a few people at the top in Wall Street made such bonuses and they make up a dinky amount overall.
If you want to get to the heart of the issue and throw out real large numbers, try using Realtors who pocketed 6% commission right off the top of the 100s of Billions in Sales. Not to mention the cronism of the NAR in Congress dwarfs Wall Street by many hundreds of miles.
We have nearly 10 years of scum sucking sleazing toxic sales based on lies and fraud, and yet no one wants to ‘claw back’ these billions in commissions from realtors for time bomb sales they made. And even today we have realtor sleaziods running around justifing high prices, esp on “fortress towns” and talking about a “recovery” in prices.
We are not going to get anywhere until we start dealing with some real issues here…

Yes, keep believing in that same sales pitch, “there are other higher bidders, will you go higher with your last and final bid”.

Wow! slow down Thomas. Some respect for fellow realtors on this blog.

thomas.wong1986 says

JimAtLaw says

Exactly - Mr. Bulldog of Wall Street still gets a $50,000,000 bonus,

Small fries and a easy scapegoat. Only a few people at the top in Wall Street made such bonuses and they make up a dinky amount overall.
If you want to get to the heart of the issue and throw out real large numbers, try using Realtors who pocketed 6% commission right off the top of the 100s of Billions in Sales. Not to mention the cronism of the NAR in Congress dwarfs Wall Street by many hundreds of miles.
We have nearly 10 years of scum sucking sleazing toxic sales based on lies and fraud, and yet no one wants to ‘claw back’ these billions in commissions from realtors for time bomb sales they made. And even today we have realtor sleaziods running around justifing high prices, esp on “fortress towns” and talking about a “recovery” in prices.
We are not going to get anywhere until we start dealing with some real issues here…

Yes, keep believing in that same sales pitch, “there are other higher bidders, will you go higher with your last and final bid”.

Couldn't agree more - there are plenty of scapegoats to go around, and after hearing misleading crap from dozens of Realtors during the bubble I agree we should be criminally prosecuting the vast majority. All of the Realtors who told their customers real estate never goes down and that they could just sell or refinance in a couple of years when their payments reset, all of the mortgage brokers who switched out fixed for adjustable rate mortgages and brought higher rates to the signing table at the last second, all the way up the chain to the i-bankers selling CDOs backed by mortgages they knew would default in large numbers... they should all be earning their keep making license plates. It's just easier to pick on the guys at the very top because while many of the the Realtors and brokers are eating ramen these days (and deserve it), a lot of the Wall St. guys not only still have their jobs but still make six to 8 figures.

thomas.wong1986 says

JimAtLaw says

Exactly - Mr. Bulldog of Wall Street still gets a $50,000,000 bonus,

Small fries and a easy scapegoat. Only a few people at the top in Wall Street made such bonuses and they make up a dinky amount overall.

That's horseshit. It's not just a "few people" who made money on Wall Street, and besides, you're missing the point. Trillions of dollars have been pumped into the financial sector by the government. Nobody should be making one thin dime of profit so long as my tax dollars are being given away to people who are no more than common thugs.

I'm betting you work in the finance industry. Am I right?

The reason Wall St gets ALL the blame is that they are easier to pick on. Not even Wall St managed to make 6% on all the loans that they fraudulently floated all over the place.

I've said it before, and I will say it again: The Realtors are ground zero of the housing bubble.

The people of the US had to lose 50% of the peak price so that the realtors could make 6% in commissions of the same peak value. It is as simple as that.

Many realtors are of the same ilk as used car salesman, but they have been around forever. They were not the cause of the absurd housing bubble. It is not like many individuals got together and caused this. I don't think anybody would say there was a conspiracy of realtors i.e. they got together and decided to drive up the market. The same can be said for appraisers, flippers, and even many banks. Maybe they jumped on and kept the bubble going a little longer, but they were not the cause.

The causes were systematic at the higher level. The federal reserve lowering interest rates for too long, the government backing almost all mortgages, the three bond rating agencies giving AAA rating to junk loans, derivatives, repeal of Glass-Steagal, and complexities in the system that few understand were the causes of this. Other than Greenspan, Bernanke, Summers, Frank, BOA and a few others, it is hard to put a face on who to blame.

There is a systemic problem through which fraud was (and still is) rewarded - Realtors are rewarded for lying to buyers about the market (housing never falls!), about the house and the deal (there are multiple offers!), about their own compensation (no need to mention I'm getting an extra bonus for bringing you to this developer!), and everything else. Mortgage brokers are rewarded for lying to you about what interest rate you'll get (the bank called at the last minute and told me I had to change it!), about what type of loan you'll get and your paperwork (this is a fixed rate loan!), and their collaboration with the Realtors and appraisers (the house must be found to worth X to get the loan funded!). The bankers are rewarded for lying to the buyers on both ends, the buyers of both the homes (we never got your paperwork, sorry, now we'll need to raise your rate/foreclose/tack on a balloon payment), and the buyers the CDOs they package the mortgages into (sure, all of these people provided tax records showing that income, totally plausible that a strawberry picker can buy a $700k house), as well as the courts (absolutely your honor, we studied these records in depth and can tell you for certain that we have an unbroken chain title to this property).

And since the government is being bought off by all of them - the Realtors, the home builders, and the banks - there is no action to punish anyone. Any sense that the government is trying to protect anything but their campaign contributions has utterly left the market at this point - everyday people get brutally punished for the smallest infractions, big players can do whatever the fuck they want. The American dream is dead.

JimAtLaw says

The American dream is dead.

On one of the other thread I mentioned the failure of the Roman Empire and no one bothered to comment on that. Too pessimistic view, I guess.

justme says

The reason Wall St gets ALL the blame is that they are easier to pick on. Not even Wall St managed to make 6% on all the loans that they fraudulently floated all over the place.

Huh? Even on a 30 year fixed-rate loan at, say 6%, the lender would make over 100% of the loan value in total interest paid, PLUS fees and commissions. And probably more on ARMs. Your comment makes no sense. They make far, far more than 6%. And by the way, the 6% realtor commission is split, so no, an individual realtor does not make 6%. The only time they would is if they are a dual-agent and the buyer agrees to let them keep the entire amount.

gameisrigged says

justme says

The reason Wall St gets ALL the blame is that they are easier to pick on. Not even Wall St managed to make 6% on all the loans that they fraudulently floated all over the place.

Huh? Even on a 30 year fixed-rate loan at, say 6%, the lender would make over 100% of the loan value in total interest paid, PLUS fees and commissions. And probably more on ARMs. Your comment makes no sense. They make far, far more than 6%. And by the way, the 6% realtor commission is split, so no, an individual realtor does not make 6%. The only time they would is if they are a dual-agent and the buyer agrees to let them keep the entire amount

Hmm, unfortunately there are a few things wrong with what you are saying here. First of all, the profit that the bank makes on the loan does not equal the sum of all the interest payments. In fact, the theory of time value of money says that that the value of you getting all the cash up front equals the value of the bank getting the payments and interest in the future. Then there is the interest free risk rate, pardon me, the risk free interest rate to consider, and inflation, and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money

Second, the bank usually does not borrow at 0% and lend at 6%, they borrow at some higher rate. So whatever profit the bank books is more a function of interest rate spread. Only when Bernanke wants banks to earn their way out of their losses at the savers expense is the interest rate at 0%.

Finally, about the realtor 6% commissions, or 5.5% or whatever is the average. My point is not about about what any particular salesperson or broker gets paid. My point is about what the total drag on the economy all the useless fees constitute, in total. But this is a topic of another thread, which I will start in a moment.

justme says

Hmm, unfortunately there are a few things wrong with what you are saying here.

Interesting you should say that, because what YOU said was utter nonsense. The 3% commission a realtor makes is not more than what a bank makes on a loan, all your nitpicking aside. Also, it's disingenuous to consider the BANK's costs of doing business, but not the realtor's.

gameisrigged says

The 3% commission a realtor makes is not more than what a bank makes on a loan, all your nitpicking aside.

Thing is, the commission is pure skimming with no actual value add. Interest at least is paying for the use of someone's money. Granted, the bank's cut of this is not very justifiable these days.

Troy says

Thing is, the commission is pure skimming with no actual value add. Interest at least is paying for the use of someone’s money. Granted, the bank’s cut of this is not very justifiable these days.

Troy, LENDERS get a commission too. Sheesh, talk about a non-point.

Y'know, if the goal of you guys is to get me to shed a tear for the poor maligned bank execs, you aren't doing a very good job.

Hmmm....trying to cry....nope, nothing.

Sure, I've said here before that I think mortgage lending should be nationalized, just like student loans have recently been. In the previous decade all the value-add of the lending brokers was mainly to themselves, to get the biggest YSPs they could.

But the REIC with its ~5% transaction tax just to be a middleman is waaay beyond the pale.

Back in the 50s and 60s they had a useful function. Now with everyone on the internet, they are a few years away from disintermediation. I really wonder why Google hasn't taken them out yet.

gameisrigged says

Y’know, if the goal of you guys is to get me to shed a tear for the poor maligned bank execs, you aren’t doing a very good job.

Not at all. I want the bank execs in jail. But I think we are setting ourselves up for the next bubble if we do not reign in the realtors.

Realtors -- The Foot Soldiers of Doom (TM).

O.K., fair enough. As I'm sure you know, I have no love for realtors.

Troy says

really wonder why Google hasn’t taken them out yet.

No kidding. A little bit of google docs to fill in, sign and store contracts ought to take care of it.

Troy says

Thing is, the commission is pure skimming with no actual value add

I don't agree with that either. You can debate how much value realtors add, but it's almost certainly greater than zero. When I've relocated to new areas (2000 miles), the realtor was a pretty big help. I ended up renting, but he found me a good house rental in the right area.

bubblesitter says

Wow! slow down Thomas. Some respect for fellow realtors on this blog.

In case you aren't joking, realtor hate will die down the day that NAR takes its kung fu grip off of congress and stops their cartel-like operation and misleading propaganda.

Troy says

gameisrigged says

The 3% commission a realtor makes is not more than what a bank makes on a loan, all your nitpicking aside.

Thing is, the commission is pure skimming with no actual value add. Interest at least is paying for the use of someone’s money. Granted, the bank’s cut of this is not very justifiable these days.

Debating the ill-gotten gains of a Bankster vs. a Realtwhore is like debating the distinction between a louse and a flea. Lets move on already.

klarek says

In case you aren’t joking, realtor hate will die down the day that NAR takes its kung fu grip off of congress and stops their cartel-like operation and misleading propaganda

The average idiot--you know, the ones that all took a walk on The Boardwalk and paid peak bubble prices with monopoly money--doesn't know or care about the "realtor" cartel. They don't even know what a lobby is or does, or how our government is bought and paid for. If all these schmoes cared at all, we'd have long ago taken down the 6% commissions, pocket listings, double-back-door shenannigans, fake multi bids, etc.

You see, us tiny few can't make a changeful impact on these issues. Ignorance is bliss, baby, so just let the mob take over, 'cause the goldbars aren't gonna buy anything once the SHTF.

Philistine says

You see, us tiny few can’t make a changeful impact on these issues. Ignorance is bliss, baby, so just let the mob take over, ’cause the goldbars aren’t gonna buy anything once the SHTF.

I think people are slowly becoming aware. Now that prices are falling and "equity" is disappearing, sellers realize how much they are getting ass-raped by agents. Buyers will for the most part remain in the dark since they think the sellers pay for it all. I don't know how it manages to elude them though that there's an obvious conflict of interest here and the buyer's agent is going to put their own needs ahead of the schmuck they're representing. That is, convince them to pay whatever to get the deal to close as quickly as possible, even if it is too much.

It will take a massive public information campaign to get people to wake up. Buyers out there are all drinking the cool aid.

Philistine says

The average idiot–you know, the ones that all took a walk on The Boardwalk and paid peak bubble prices with monopoly money–doesn’t know or care about the “realtor” cartel. They don’t even know what a lobby is or does, or how our government is bought and paid for.

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