patrick.net

Damn it! H-o-n-o-u-r!

Just apply as an american refugee to canada. War on Savers is torture. 1m crapshacks is cruel and unusual.

"Canada offers refugee protection to people in Canada who fear persecution or who may be at risk of torture or cruel and unusual treatment or punishment, and are unwilling or unable to return to their home country."

It's always good to know your options. I was British by birth so I can also reinstate that. I think I just need to take my old passport down to whatever consulate and apply for a new one. So I've got a few ways to bail out if things get bad:

Canada is a good option to have but wouldn't be my first choice. I need to visit and I've heard good things though. I've heard that people feel they get real value for their taxes and it isn't as cutthroat as here.
With the British nationality I have a lot of options since I could move directly to pretty much anywhere in Great Britain and places in the Caribbean. I was born on an island named Nevis, which is now independent. I could also live there, and they don't normally take foreigners. I say that because like Canada, if you buy a house for more than 250K US, you can be considered an investor and begin your citizenship process.
Don't forget there is always Mexico. All of this fear of a collapse here was part of the reason I was looking at San Felipe. I have 2 sets of friends who actually did buy homesites as a hedge to a meltdown here. I think they are overpriced for something nice on the Sea of Cortez but you can still buy something reasonable. (You can own, although the sales pitch still needs to be scrutinized.) There is always South and Central America. Places like Costa Rica want us there.
There are also the Pacific and Asian countries to consider. I don't personally know how easy it would be to go to the Philippines but I know a guy who met a girl over the internet, he went there and almost didn't come back. Something tells me it is an option. I imagine some of you still have some ties or claims to Asian options. I'm curious if that is a viable option for some of you and maybe you could make a suggestion for a nice place for a guy like me with no ancestory from that part of the world. There are also the flyover states here which is like moving to a foreign country.

DinOR, we're not in England yet, I'm pretty sure your original spelling is fine. It is a horse of a different colour there.

I know, you're thinking ahead. :)

Phew, now I feel a little better knowing that no matter how bad it gets there are always some countries more screwed up than ours where we can go and still have some sort of standard of living. The problem is that as we lose our ranking here there are fewer and fewer countries that we can just buy our way into. :(

Haha, I just read your post above it, you really were kidding. That's awesome!

"War on Savers is torture. 1m crapshacks is cruel and unusual." LOL!

I hear ya' bro! Economic Refugee Status anyone?

That aside, I'm SURE I wouldn't fit in in Canada. I travelled a LOT there as a kid and it was great. But now I complain about PORTLAND'S winter. It would only increase my snowbird schedule. (Pronounced "shed-yule")*

I over heard on CNBC that one of the bond traders said there was ZERO value in the subprime loans where the home was over-valued by 12% or more. ZERO. So that would be... what? The entire State of CA?

In the end though I can live w/ the "Salvage Squads" the occasional military junta, power outages and bribes.

But a pub filled w/ rabid "football" fans!? NEVER!

We have some rental property in Jenks Oklahoma. A yuppie suburb of Tulsa. Great school system.

They did not experience the housing boom and are not undergoing a bust. In fact, things are just beginning to boom there. Oklahoma is a commodity state with oil, gas and agriculture and should do quite well in the future.

However the extremes of weather - tornados, ice storms, and intense heat would take some adjusting.

Don't you mean hourse of a different colour?

Yes, I guess I made an arse out of myself.

BOOMER RETIREMENT PLAN:

1. move to CA in 60's/70's to smoke dope while dodging draft for vietnam
2. buy crap shack then vote for prop 13 to screw the next guy
3. do everything possible to stop any and every new home/condo project that comes up, get state to use taxpayer funds to buy empty land for 'parks', pass nimby laws.
4. sell all original crapshack(s) for 1m+ and retire to AZ/NV leaving CA a hopeless wrecked state with overpriced inferior housing.
5. tell everyone left in CA how nice new state is and 'what a wreck' CA is which is why you left anyway.

There's an RV in there somewhere HelloKitty.

Just apply as an american refugee to canada. War on Savers is torture. 1m crapshacks is cruel and unusual.

There used to be a lot of illegal immigrants that flew to Canada, after they boarded the plane, they destroyed their passport/papers and claimed refugee status resulting in quite a few clogged airplane toilets. The government usually let them loose and arranged for a hearing later, many don't show up at the hearings. It probably tightened up a little now.

It seems to me that Germany and Japan are doing pretty well economically now.

Could it be thier boomers are actually conservative savers since those countrys lost ww2 and they grew up in post war bleakness? opposite of US? German and Japanese auto industry are enviable.

"There's an RV in there somewhere"

Great ecoligical statement, don't you think?

Can't wait to see 'those' things rot under the weight of $4 gas?

"The inconvenience of the suburbs with ALL... the maintainence overhead of public transportation!" (They'll eat it up)

I had an idea yesterday for starting a competing YouWalkAway type company. From the readers here I thought we could actually put together a pretty cool service. There's a lot of idle talent here and the front of the website would be an awesome place to post a linking ad with the high traffic Patrick gets.
Dennis, I had you in mind because the thing that YouWalkAway doesn't have is a real legal team to nitpick the mortgages. I know we have guys to put together the killer website. There is also idle capital here due to the punishing interest rates.

Here's the quick elevator pitch.

StickItToEm.com (or similar but more professional name - it needs market testing) is a borrower advocacy firm created for the purpose of making the most of a bad situation. We will advocate for our clients by using errors made by lenders to give struggling borrowers leverage to renegotiate their loans. In many cases we will not only renegotiate the terms but the actual balance owed on your mortgage. If a borrower does not qualify for renegotiation, our staff will assist them in returning the house to the lender with minimal damage to their credit and NO resulting judgements even in the case of recourse loans. $500 will start your case, and our final fee will be based on X% that we can reduce your loan balance by. Unlike our competition we have real lawyers and accountants with years of experience directly related to the housing bust on staff.

*NOT* wishing ill on anyone but the Boomers lost one of their great icons yesterday. Boyd Coddington (American Hot Rod) passed away yesterday at 63.

For those among us that aren't car freaks, he was the guy that invented that "ZZ Top" look that attracted HUGE bids at Barrett-Jackson. Probably an o.k guy but he's a big part of the "Cash in on Boomer's Out of Control Consumption" craze.

Hey, I got a 76 on the Canada test! I feel wanted, in a good way. The score is probably due to my wife's education, but whatever.

Canada is what America was before it became independent of England. They never left. Seems to have worked out OK for them. And they just benefit from global warming.

I used to work with a guy who took a contract job in Holland and never came back. He met a Dutch woman, got married and speaks Dutch now. Just had his second kid and seems pretty happy there.

Oh, if it's IMPOSSIBLE to "over-pay" for real estate this guy almost single-handedly made this boomer mantra true for hot rods and muscle cars! (Some went for as much as 500k!) Believe it.

Speaking of idle talent on this website, does anyone have any ideas other than to leave the country??

I know that folks think this is hopeless, but it has seriously gotten to the point where I can't complain anymore without actually doing something.

All that I could come up with was:

1) an online petition;

2) an online "button" that bloggers and others put on their website with an image and a slogan like "NO Mortgage Bailout";

3) a real button or t-shirt that someone could design and folks could wear on a daily basis;

4) a unified walkout -- or lunch break -- where folks would walk out on the sidewalk wearing their shirts;

5) a pledge NOT to contribute any money to the campaigns of 2008 candidates who support the bailout;

and, finally,

6) once the above is achieved, get the media to recognize it.

Come on folks, lets not just bitch about it, lets actually do something!

LOL DinOR. That salespitch is even easier. How much is your current housing payment? Well with the Kangaboom RV you can have all the conveniences of a house, live in high cost areas for and easy $800 monthly payment.

Boomers don't add all of those other costs you so elequently mentioned, we just have to sell them on the payment. If they ask about gas, the answer is "Well, how often do you move your house around? Think how expensive it would be to move your stucco house just 100 feet? With this RV you just turn it on and drive to the new location. It's a no brainer."

Oh, you have to have some jocky looking former athlete boomer telling them the pitch in a tough guy voice. For some reason boomers seem to love having these guys talk down to them in the marketing.

Malcom,

www.the7thfire.com/debt_elimination/mortgage_elimination_proof.htm

That should get you started.

Administrator Says:
February 29th, 2008 at 9:05 am
"Hey, I got a 76 on the Canada test! I feel wanted, in a good way. The score is probably due to my wife’s education, but whatever."

My girlfriend's early childhood education certificate puts me in the mid 70s, we'd probably have to get married. I'm a 69 without it. Like I said before I squeak by, thanks SDSU!

Peter P Says:

> Where have all the blog trolls gone?

The number of "licensed real estate professionals" in California went from about 300K to over 500K in the last few years so at the top of the bubble we had about 200K people who had never sold a home sitting in open houses with nothing to do but blog on their laptop or Treos trying to make themselves feel better about their decision to leave a job with a steady paycheck for the “big easy money” of real estate. Since I have been a "licensed real estate professional” for over 20 years and spent three years actually selling investment property full time I know that the money in real estate is rarely as “big” or as “easy” as people think it will be and I’m certain that most of them are back doing a job that does not give them the time to blog. I suspect that many more former REALTORs © will soon join us to talk about the bubble as bears…

@Malcolm: I love StickItToEm.com, but the name needs to address any possible feelings of guilt borrowers may have about sticking it to banks (silly, but there are those who think banks are people).

Maybe something like defendYourRights.com, so they can feel they are the ones being attacked, rather than the other way around?

Spin like that worked for the war in Iraq (we attacked Iraq, but spun it completely the other way) so maybe we can learn something from Bush...

Some webmaster in Canada is scratching his head wondering, why is there all of a sudden a spike in people visiting the site?

I agree, that's why I like this group because it is a good brainstorm session. I actually like that name better, I'd be astonished if there are any domains avaiable even remotely resembling it. Damn lawyers! (Dennis excluded)

Just FYI: the AARP already has a petition to SUPPORT the bailout.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/747606327

Home Foreclosure Crisis can be Stopped! Support S. 2636 in This Week's Senate Vote

Dear Senator [Name],

I am supportive of S. 2636, the Foreclosure Prevention Act, and in particular want to emphasize our support for Title IV, which would allow families in bankruptcy to modify their home mortgages through the courts. This provision is a commonsense solution that will help families save their homes without any cost to the U.S. Treasury, while making sure that lenders recover at least what they would have in foreclosure.

Abusive lending practices and slumping real estate markets are causing hundreds of thousands of American families to lose their homes to foreclosure. As devastating as foreclosures have been to date, the worst is yet to come. Foreclosures are expected to accelerate dramatically during 2008, when interest rates are scheduled to rise on a large number of loans.

This nationwide crisis affects not only individual families, but neighborhoods, entire communities, and our national economy. One solution to this serious problem is to give people on the brink of losing their homes more flexibility to restructure their loans in bankruptcy. This solution would not let people "off the hook" in paying their full mortgages; it would simply allow them to work with a judge to figure out how to pay what they owe while staying in their homes. The bankruptcy safety net that permits loan modification to save a yacht, vacation home, commercial real estate or family farm currently is not an option for a family seeking to save a primary residence. In a manner that is both fair and also urgently needed, S. 2636 would eliminate this inequity in the treatment of American homeowners.

It should be understood that the narrowly crafted remedy contained in S. 2636 does not reopen the Bankruptcy Act of 2005. Rather, it addresses 1978 bankruptcy legislation that excludes loans for primary residences from those loans that may be modified in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. At that time, mortgage loans were nearly all fixed-interest rate instruments with low loan-to-value ratios and were rarely themselves the source of a family's financial distress. This is no longer the case. Preventing the modification of home loans for primary residences makes no sense in an age of subprime exploding ARMs where the mortgage itself causes financial crisis.

While the various voluntary programs that the industry has announced in recent weeks and months are a welcome acknowledgement of the magnitude of the situation, they do nothing to negate the urgent need for this legislation.

[Your comment here]

I applaud you and your colleagues for addressing the foreclosure crisis with the urgency it deserves. I support the court-supervised modification section of S. 2636 and urge speedy passage of this urgently needed reform.

Sincerely,
[Your name]
[Your address]

Sorry to multi-post, but the above is why we need something opposing the bailout.

They have 7,667 signatures already.

mbwd Says:
February 29th, 2008 at 9:10 am
"Speaking of idle talent on this website, does anyone have any ideas other than to leave the country??"

I don't know why but I started laughing uncontrollably when I read this. The statement is kind of funny just as a stand alone.

The basic premise of "mortgage elimination" is precisely what that Wisconsin couple claimed in their recently established class action suit.

During the closing process the title company and lender break so many FHA, Truth in Lending Laws etc. that once brought to their attention they will buckle rather than pay the hefty fines for each infraction. I have spoke w/ this individual and he claims there are typically anywhere from 10 to 30 infractions in the avg. mortgage paperwork.

(His theory not mine) but... interesting!

Oh, correction, not mid 70s, it was just a 2 point gain which was a 71. Sorry, I don't want to embelish my Canadian score.

Canada doesn’t want me…I scored a 62. I got zero points on age: at 55 I’m too old for them.

Dennis, you are still single, right? Canada has some of the nicest women. :)

"other than leave the country??"

Completely unnecessary! Buy a houseboat in OR (no sales tax) moor it at Lake Meade (No NV income tax) I'll commute to Vegas before I'll take up Curling.

mbwd,

No matter how creative we get, the fact is that losses leading to bank failures will eventually fall on the taxpayer's shoulders. There is no reason to modify a nonrecourse loan, the bank can voluntarily take a short sale or can take the house back, their choice. This plan only adds risk to banks with no greater benefit to anyone. It is wrong and will make things much worse if a bank can't rely on a fixed note balance on a secured asset. This would open up the possibility of all sorts of abuses, and will cost more in the long run as they build the risk into pricing if they even bother to continue lending to the average Joe for a home purchase.

mbwd,
I apologize, I thought you were posting in support but reread your post below.

For anyone serious about getting out, I'd suggest once the fan start blowing stuff around it may be too late to escape anywhere. If a herd forms, which is the likely scenario should law and order evaporate, the US passé Porte may find visas difficult to come by. Perhaps the contractors building our Great Wall at the southern border, whose pilot just failed key measures and has been put on hold status btw, should begin business development efforts in Mexico City immediately.

The time to make any of these kinds of hedging arrangements is now. It’s very complicated and difficult to relocate permanently even in these times. I can’t imagine too many countries will be welcoming to Americans after a small herd of expat boomers forms. Anti-immigration sentiment against the obese Americans will run deep everywhere.

My personal two cents is that it will not get quite that bad here, even after losing the banking system, and a significant stock market meltdown. Too much valuable infrastructure here, lots of sideline capital will go to work, and the government LE community has become very technologically adept at quelling public disturbance and manipulating public opinion. Crime and poverty will skyrocket, the gap between wealth classes will grow into a canyon, and standard of living will decline, but we live in a very interesting time and place with a very malleable population that might easily be repurposed on a grand scale.

What will the life at home and abroad be like if the hawks get their way and we end up in Syria, Iran, Pakistan, or any combination of them? I can't get a handle on how much of this resource shortage stuff is real, but it is certain that food, energy, and water scarcity has the potential to cause massive instability in third world governments all over the world. And soon. Where is it safe to be in that type of environment?

FAB,

Yes, they WILL be joining the Bear Ranks! I'd LOVE to see a Realtwhore's version of "License To Steal" ( a supposed expose' of the brokerage industry ) that really was more of a composite of urban myths.

Still and all it was an easy read filled w/ inaccuracies and half-truths yet well rec'd by the public. Time for a REIC Edition!

No problem Malcom.

I agree with your post.

Let's do something to get that message out and into the media.