patrick.net

I think that the problem is this. There is class warfare going on, but so far it is the republicans that really see it as war. I think they see it as all out war on so many things going back to FDR.

I believe that if the tax cuts for the rich don't end, many of us, myself included, will finally realize what this war really is.

Zlxr says

Money spent in the General Fund is money spent doing regular business. It’s not an investment. Just like when you pay your rent/mortgage and buy food - you pay for it with your money if you have it and you borrow or steal it if you don’t. But you don’t borrow it and call it an investment when you pay your bills - bills are expenses and one should not be in the habit of borrowing to pay for expenses.

If all our SS money had been saved or invested properly - there would be plenty of money to pay with. As it stands - we use the new money coming in and borrow the remainder.

Actually, you're not quite seeing the dynamic here. The investment aspect came from the fact that TAX RATES ON HIGH INCOME EARNERS were lowered thanks to the government being able to borrow from FICA payers instead.

And these high income earners have DONE VERY WELL, THANK YOU since 1985.

THAT'S the theory behind the Greenspan Commission's -- and supply side economic in general. Free the money and let the upper class capitalists multiply it with all their wonderful wealth-creating investments.

But now, 25 years on, it's getting time for all these Galtian Wealth Creators to pay back us FICA slobs. But instead of ponying up they have their propaganda mills going 24/7 putting out lies about IOUs, no more money, it was spent already, theft, ponzis, etc.

Yet the rich have MUCH more of the pie now than they did 25 years ago.

2.6% more of a much bigger pie -- since 1990 private assets have grown from $12T to over $40T, so that 2.6% difference is worth a trillion right there.

And that's just the top 1%. The top 10% -- the FICA cappers -- own 70% of the wealth in this country.

We could force everyone to cough up the money to pay for the IOU’s (except why should we when we already paid the money).

In 2006 the top 1% cleared 20% of the income in the US. The top 20% cleared 60%.

So when (if?) tax rises go up, the top 20% will be shouldering most of the burden. That was the Greenspan deal. FICA earners overpay more 1985-, and the Big Guns pay them their overcontributions back, 2020-2040.

The existence of the FICA cap means there's a difference between FICA payers and the captains of industry who make all the money and pay most of the taxes in this country.

If you want cash - where do you think it will come from?

"In 2006, the latest available year from CBO, the top 20 percent of income earners paid 86.3 percent of all federal income taxes"

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/05/the-rich-pay-more-taxes-top-20-percent-pay-record-share-of-income-taxes

Zlxr says

The Baby Boomer pot of money was probably the biggest pot of money in the history of the world and if you want to think there could be a conspiracy - then someone just pulled off the heist of the century.

No, the heist is going to be the boomers (or their children) not getting the benefit from the $1.5T in FICA overtaxation.

We're not quite there yet. The important pea to watch in this shell game is what happens to the current $4T in trust funds. To the extent these aren't run down to $1T or so by 2050, that will be the theft.

Or if the Fed prints the money instead of taking it back from the general fund. Right now we don't have much of an inflation problem but if that $4T is inflated down to $1T in today's money or something by 2030 then yeah, QE will be a big part of the theft and all the people complaining about it will have been proven right.

did he make an agreement in writing that spelled out how it would be paid for

The plan was to only make cuts from the surplus. Of course, he cut too far and too fast, so they became an attempt at stimulus instead.

Zlxr says

We need to prove to ourselves that “YES WE CAN” do something. Don’t wait for the Gov’t - by then it will be too late.

Maybe like minded people getting together in a grass roots movement to change the government might be better, in the sense that it would help us all. Once the class warfare becomes increasingly obvious, that might be possible. But then again, the rich and the corporations have done a much better job mobilizing (you know getting many middle class and lower middle class on their side with the issues about Gays, immigrants, guns etc. ).

Marcus ... what Milton Friedman had to say about "Soaking the Rich." Check it out. You might learn something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi-D24oCa10&feature=related

marcus says

I’m still waiting to see whether I have to give up on Obama, if the tax cuts for the rich don’t expire.

Hey Marcus .... have you given up on Obama yet?

RayAmerica says

marcus says

I’m still waiting to see whether I have to give up on Obama, if the tax cuts for the rich don’t expire.

Hey Marcus …. have you given up on Obama yet?

Two years is a good compromise. $140B to the wealthy is peanuts these days.

Let the 2012 elections be about making these silly tax rates permanent.

Troy says

Two years is a good compromise. $140B to the wealthy is peanuts these days.
Let the 2012 elections be about making these silly tax rates permanent.

Nice to see you're still lapping up the Kool-Aid. If the "silly tax rates" are so silly, why didn't Obama put up a fight now?

RayAmerica says

Hey Marcus …. have you given up on Obama yet?

I'm more than a little disappointed, with him and with this, what is it, oligarchy the US has become.

marcus says

RayAmerica says

Hey Marcus …. have you given up on Obama yet?

I’m more than a little disappointed, with him and with this, what is it, oligarchy the US has become.

It's a tough call. He knows Dem control of the Senate is largely ceremonial now that the new House majority's got the ball as far as legislation goes.

The fact is the Dems got thrown out of office last month. The House *is* the seat of government. The Republicans have every right to hold middle class tax cuts hostage for the top 2%.

That's what the people voted for, and if they're too stupid to see it (or worse, agree with it) that's their funeral.

The cold hard fact is that the rich can handle the 3% tax rise in their top marginal rate better than the middle class -- losing the $1000 child tax credits &c. So any showdown over this is going to end badly, as far as the macro situation goes.

Thanks to the 60% electorate not showing up last month, we're f---ed.

Troy says

So any showdown over this is going to end badly, as far as the macro situation goes.

Okay, but putting up a fight would have been politically good, because the people weren't for this(continued cut for the rich), and I'm pretty sure that the people don't understand. I've heard people here say, "what do you call rich," as if to say, hey 250K isn't that high. But what I'm pretty sure many don't understand it's only the income over that that is taxed higher. If they had ended the tax cut for high income earners, a household that makes 260K would have had to pay only $400 more in taxes. It's the truly rich that would have felt it ( a little ), and who can easily afford to pay more.

Trade deficit and national debt is too high, and both have to be resolved with probably tariffs and cuts. But this is a nation where almost noone wants cuts or want to make less money. They'll just kick the can down the road and hope to not be present when it all crashes down (a mistake Bush made when he stuck around long enough to see mistakes of his administration materialize)

marcus says

It’s the truly rich that would have felt it ( a little ), and who can easily afford to pay more.

Sounds like a good thing to run on in 2012.

2010 didn't end up so well, thanks to 60% of the electorate not bothering to vote.

Don't vote, pay the man.