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Refi Interest Trap?


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2008 Mar 28, 1:30am   54,597 views  354 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (60)   💰tip   ignore  

trap

A reader writes:

Word from the IRS is that they are auditing people based on refiances on their house. If you refied and pulled money out of the house and use for other purposes than home improvement you can not claim that as Mortgage Deduction, needs to be claimed as Interest expense. Guess what, they want proof of home improvements... Just wait -- how many toys people bought using their house as a ATM machine will be for sale on CraigsList?

Anyone know if this is true? And what's the difference between the mortgage interest deduction and interest expense?

Patrick

#housing

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148   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 1:13am  

Peter P,

Thanks for the National Summary link. It's good to be reminded of that periodically. Protestors would probably be even more surprised to learn that on a micro-level individual division/dept's operate on bare-bones budgets.

I ran the hangar deck division on a helo-carrier and our budget was around $3,000 per quarter for cleaning supplies, pens, paper etc. Not exactly Fat City?

149   HeadSet   2008 Mar 31, 2:03am  

ran the hangar deck division on a helo-carrier and our budget was around $3,000 per quarter for cleaning supplies, pens, paper

What? That implies that sailors clean up after themselves and are able to read and write.

150   HeadSet   2008 Mar 31, 2:18am  

Coming this close to the election, I’m sure that the Dems in Congress will fillibuster ANY nominee Bush puts up, so that during our housing crisis there will be NO HUD secretary.

Good point. That turns what should be a simple majority Senate confirmation into a supermajority needed to close the filibuster.

151   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 2:39am  

Headset,

LOL! Yeah and that included toilet paper! I just think the avg. American (who probably only grumbles to self and is not an active protester) would be surprised at how little trickles down to the rank and file.

I also suspect they don't realize that the avg. junior officer is expected to be a career counselor/marriage counselor/'financial planner', none of which s/he is paid for.

152   DennisN   2008 Mar 31, 2:43am  

The filibuster stinks.

The Constitution sets out a simple majority rule for most legislation, and strictly sets out the few exceptional cases requiring 2/3 majority (e.g. override veto, Constitutional amendment). The Constitution also permits the House and Senate to "set their own rules".

The filibuster is merely a "rule", and proper construction of the Constitution would find that a mere "rule" cannot trump the Constitution.

The filibuster was originally intended for use in legislation, NOT confirmation of appointees. In the case of legislation, it permitted a few legislators to "hold out for an amendment" to a pending bill. But in the case of confirmation of appointees, it has no such utility. You can't "amend" a human being. With appointees, it's simply either "YES" or "NO" on them.

153   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 2:44am  

RE: financial planner

Is the junior officer also a loan broker? :)

154   HARM   2008 Mar 31, 2:49am  

I would take any unfiltered military budget numbers coming from a right-wing site with a grain of salt. There's a ton of military spending that's categorized as "off-budget" or "supplemental", such as Iraq/Afganistan/WOT spending. There's also a lot of military spending that gets listed under other non-Defense budget categories, such as as Homeland Security, Energy (nuclear warhead stockpiles, Star Wars research, etc.).

I am not against the U.S. having a strong military or even boosting spending on benefits & compensation for front line troops and combat veterans, who have been getting the short end of the stick for decades. The problem is, most of our current spending is *not* going to the troops. It's going to politically powerful MIC companies like Blackwater and Halliburton, which are largely unregulated quasi-government agencies, and have become bywords for government waste, fraud and corruption.

Aside from institutional corruption, another problem with chronically high levels of military spending (even during times of relative peace) is, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

155   DennisN   2008 Mar 31, 2:55am  

At least in the Royal Navy junior officers get "rum, sodomy, and the lash". ;)

156   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 2:57am  

It’s going to politically powerful MIC companies

That is more of a big-government problem, isn't it?

157   skibum   2008 Mar 31, 3:10am  

SSOTW:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/31/news/economy/copes/index.htm?postversion=2008033105

"Kent and Mysti Cope were well-paid executives at subprime lenders who never thought the industry could disappear overnight. Now they're just trying to get by.

Mysti and Kent Cope met when both worked at subprime lender New Century. Both lost their jobs last year when the industry collapsed."

158   HARM   2008 Mar 31, 3:14am  

That is more of a big-government problem, isn’t it?

Yes. And for the record, I am no fan of farm subsidies, either. The lion's share goes to giant corporate farms, not Ma & Pa Kettle anyhow. Pardon me, but I think Americans already consume *enough* corn and corn syrup without any additional taxpayer "incentives". The price of milk is also plenty high enough without additional price "supports", thank you.

159   DennisN   2008 Mar 31, 3:17am  

Those Copes aren't living up to their name...

And they've made cutbacks: trading in Kent's Corvette for a Suburban and getting rid of the gardener, for example. ... Since he lost his job, Kent has gotten a real estate license

Since when is a Suburban more thrifty than a Corvette? Since when is going INTO being a Realtor (R) a reasonable career choice?

160   HARM   2008 Mar 31, 3:22am  

I am a strong supporter of farm subsidy no matter how much it costs. Food security is just as important as maintaining a military superiority, without both we are just another Argentina.

I'm rarely to the right of Peter P on most issues, but I disagree with this line of reasoning. I don't think that farm subsidies (which are usually targeted to a particular product --corn, ethanol, sugar, etc.) do much to ensure overall food "security". They *do* tend to mask free market price signals and artificially favor one farm commodity over another, which is not a good thing IMO. As a result, subsidized farms tend to overproduce some goods, such as corn, sugar and ethanol, while under producing other foods.

161   BayAreaIdiot   2008 Mar 31, 3:23am  

Re: the story skibum posted

"...you pay a lot for your house but can't get it's worth now..."

They bought their ocean view home in 2005!

They were higher level managers while the company was imploding. It's a guess, but I'll make it: they fired people all the way down to the moment they themselves were let go. It would seem they were oblivious to the reality in their industry. You could say, the couldn't and still can't "face reality".

I have no tears for them.

162   skibum   2008 Mar 31, 3:24am  

DennisN,

There are just SO many unintended jokes in that story that it's almost pointless to list them all!

How about falling in love in the subprime industry? That's got Lifetime movie of the week written all over it.

Or, two subprime "executives" with $10k in monthly payments (most of it mortgage and HELOC).

Or the boomer dude having to get rid of his HELOC-funded toys.

Or, the question that's gnawing at me, which is, how would two "execs" in the subprime industry really believe that their industry and careers were "rock solid?"

And Mysti is selling useless tchotchkes on-line. Now there's a solid business plan for success.

163   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 3:25am  

Kent and Mysti Cope were well-paid executives at subprime lenders who never thought the industry could disappear overnight.

I wonder what "subprime" means. Perhaps I should go eat some subprime ribs.

As a result, subsidized farms tend to overproduce some goods, such as corn, sugar and ethanol, while under producing other foods.

HARM, you have a point. Perhaps a strategic food reserve is an alternative?

164   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 3:29am  

Young Tibetans question path of nonviolence

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0401/p01s01-woap.html

Looks like they are becoming a Religion of Peace too!

Too bad nobody really cares about Tibet.

165   HeadSet   2008 Mar 31, 3:57am  

“Kent and Mysti Cope were well-paid executives at subprime lenders who never thought the industry could disappear overnight. Now they’re just trying to get by."

166   HARM   2008 Mar 31, 3:59am  

Nice Slate article re: off-budget military spending and how that budget is currently being mis-spent:

http://www.slate.com/id/2187616/

167   HeadSet   2008 Mar 31, 4:01am  

“Kent and Mysti Cope were well-paid executives at subprime lenders who never thought the industry could disappear overnight. Now they’re just trying to get by.

I hate it when that happens to a post.

If these people where so well paid, why not live on one salary and bank the other? Noone should pity a high earner who was too stupid/arogant/greedy to save for the future or build an emergency fund. Plus, who paid this guy so much in the first place? After all, his current job skills cause him to settle for a job as real estate agent.

168   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 4:05am  

SSOTW:

"It's almost like having "Enron" on your resume"

No Mysti that would not be accurate. Unlike subprime schlock shops, most of those employed at Enron were honest, hard working people that had no idea what level of fraud their bosses were pulling.

Be it the 2nd largest sub-slime shop or the 222nd your advancement is contingent on the amount of fraud you can personally generate. If your husband was a "supervisor" he TRAINED other people to commit fraud.

Thus... having New Century on your resume is like having.. New Century on your resume (and nothing else). It's amazing isn't it? Even when they've been completely and totally busted they insist on keeping the spin alive along with working off the assumption that anyone they're addressing MUST be a total idiot!

169   HARM   2008 Mar 31, 4:05am  

A nice piece on Socialism for the Rich:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/129681

170   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 4:07am  

Headset,

What's more is that he's looking to "cash in" on the growing number of foreclosures he helped to create! Like I say, they just refuse to give it up, they simply move on to the next logical step in the scam.

171   EBGuy   2008 Mar 31, 4:16am  

Thinking he was being frugal, Rick in 2003 opted for a diesel car, which gets 45 miles per gallon and needs little maintenance. At the time, he could get a gallon for $1.19, and a fill-up cost "maybe $19.
If ever there was a candidate for a WVO (waste vegetable oil) conversion kit, he would be it. One of my neighbors recently offered me his surplus WVO spoils, but we don't use enough fuel to justify a conversion.
BTW, "subsidized" biodiesel is now at parity with dino-diesel. This has never been the case during the time I have been using biodiesel (around 6 years).

172   HeadSet   2008 Mar 31, 4:19am  

DinOr,

I presume you mean refinancing from variable to fixed. This time though, he won't be able to roll the costs into the loan, and the monthly payment may go up compared to the teaser rate. Imagine the discourse:

"So Kent, to "fix" that loan you sold me a couple years back, I gotta shell out another couple grand out of pocket and then watch my payment increase?"

"Yep."

173   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 4:34am  

Headset,

Honestly I hadn't even stopped to think about that "interim screwing" in the shake down. Right, my bad, shake 'em down for a teaser loan, re-fi them into a FRM and THEN swoop in w/ your newly minted realtwhore's license and make a buck when the "client" goes into foreclosure!

174   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 4:37am  

EBGuy,

We're big on that in Oregon. They even have classes you can take. I want to re-power my boat w/ a 4-53 Detroit Diesel but didn't know how well it would work w/ a 2-Stoke engine (and marine application as well)

TIA

175   BayAreaIdiot   2008 Mar 31, 4:51am  

re Daniel Gross' article in Newsweek

I always suspected Gross was an idiot. Now I'm certain. Take a problem of Financial WMD and lax application of inadequate regulations and portray it as a class warfare issue. That'll really clarify things for the average Newsweek reader!

176   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 4:57am  

The problem is NOT having inadequate regulations.

The problem is over-regulation. When has moral hazard ever been associated with inadequate regulations?

177   StuckInBA   2008 Mar 31, 5:07am  

skibum :

Or, the question that’s gnawing at me, which is, how would two “execs” in the subprime industry really believe that their industry and careers were “rock solid?”

While I have no sympathy for any of these mortgage SOBsters, I kind of get this sentiment.

Very few dot com guys thought that the world as they knew would simply vanish. When you are dreaming as being the enabler of endless prosperity it's easy to not wake up till it's too late. Every dot com CEO fancied himself to be the visionary and the next Steve Jobs. I have met a few who were all too busy trying to be charismatic and forgot about becoming profitable.

178   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 5:15am  

Why would anyone care about being the enabler of endless prosperity? Profit is about taking, not providing.

179   skibum   2008 Mar 31, 5:24am  

Why would anyone care about being the enabler of endless prosperity?

EGO

180   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 5:28am  

EGO is neither profitable nor edible.

181   Peter P   2008 Mar 31, 5:29am  

I much rather be a hidden oilman than someone like Steve Jobs.

182   OO   2008 Mar 31, 5:44am  

I am a strong proponent in military spending not in the form of salary to GIs or front troops, because you shouldn't need to deploy them that often. The modern warfare should be fought with least human involvement. Iraq war is the ultimate spending of how NOT to allocate one's military spending.

I am for increasing funding to NASA, national science labs with a focus on military aspects. Unfortunately I am seeing the opposite today, because lots of labs are laying off researchers left and right. I personally know of a couple of very promising military research projects that got cut due to lack of funding. If we are resorting to fighting with warm bodies, we are going to be no different from Argentina. And the sad thing is, all these cuts happened because of the stupid housing bubble which added no value whatsoever, unlike the internet boom, which did change our lives drastically one way or another. I feel a lot better with our collective financial loss in the Nasdaq than the housing bubble.

Wrt to corruption and wastage through buddy contracting, there's simply no way you can get around that. Blackwater is indeed a shame, because it doesn't build any knowhow nor expertise.

For the upcoming election, at least there's one piece of good news. Bush is going to be out of office.

183   OO   2008 Mar 31, 5:50am  

For that "executive" couple at New Century, I feel completely vindicated to see them suffer. I'd like to see more stories like that for reading amusements.

What kind of "executive" are you if all you can think of in a jobless state is to sell useless crap over the internet? Yeah, like people are going to ramp up jewelery purchase after the housing bubble bursts. Great "executive" thinking.

They are just going right back to where they belong from the very beginning.

184   OO   2008 Mar 31, 5:53am  

DinOR,

the key question for the couple is, what SKILL do they have? As far as I am concerned I see none.

185   DinOR   2008 Mar 31, 5:56am  

Those guys deployed in the field right now are a HELL of a lot more than just "warm bodies". Besides it's awfully f@cking hard to have high tech responses to people that strap bombs to children.

WTF?

186   StuckInBA   2008 Mar 31, 5:56am  

Cross posting from Zillow boards.

WARNING : Large 75 page PDF file with lots of statistics.

http://tinyurl.com/295kya

Ton of information and charts. Awesome.

Some snippets
Current: Assuming constant interest rates, borrowing power today has declined 39.4% vs. only nine months ago
•Scenario 1: If interest rates drop 100 basis points, then the decline is “only”28.9%
•Scenario 2: If interest rates drop 100 basis points and mortgages become fully amortizing, then the decline is 41.6%
•Scenarios 3 & 4: To maintain borrowing (0% decline) power the interest rate on fully amortizing mortgages would have to drop to 1.41%

187   DennisN   2008 Mar 31, 6:04am  

Did anyone here read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?

There's a great part in the first book where a society had three groups of people: the thinkers, the do-ers, and the "useless middlemen". The thinkers and do-ers concocted an apocalyptic theory (shades of Global Warming) and sent the useless middlemen off in a spaceship to avoid said calamity. They told the useless middlemen that they had to go off in the first ship "because they are so important". :) The satire of the book is of course that the useless middlemen ended up colonizing Earth.

Hence useless middlemen like the Copes.

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