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Interest Rates Must Rise Before They Can Fall


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2008 May 29, 12:54am   23,317 views  236 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (59)   💰tip   ignore  

Hi Patrick,
thought it would make for an interesting write up if
someone highlighted the difference between the housing
downturn in the early 80's vs today.

Back then, inflation was rampant and the only way to
stamp it out was through very high interest
rates--which subsequently pummeled the housing market.

Once inflation began to improve, it would have been a
great time to buy property as interest rates
dropped--spurring cheaper credit and ultimately
raising the value of real estate. (As opposed to the
NAR propaganda of "now being a great time to buy"
because interest rates are low)

Fast forward to today. Real estate is in a downward
spiral while inflation rages. The only way to contain
inflation will be a return to Volker-esque interest
rates.

Problem is, housing is in free fall. I suspect what
the Fed is trying to do is create a floor under
housing through inflation, then raise interest rates
to tamp it down.

While many economists see a recovery after another
10-15% devaluation of real estate, no one has touched
the potential long-term implications of current(and
near term) monetary policy and its effect on long term
price appreciation (or lack thereof) in the US market.

The net effect of this policy will be a long,
sustained bottom of prices that will not appreciate
again for years due to necessary increases in interest
rates.

It will not be until AFTER interest rates have been
raised substantially and then begin to reduce again
will we see another substantial increase in the value
of real estate in the US.

Any thoughts on why this hasn't been covered yet?

Best,
Bill A.

#housing

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100   OO   2008 Jun 3, 2:54am  

My hairdresser has the same complaint, but my haircut only cost $25 including tips. She said the her business suddenly fell off the cliff in the last two months, not because her customers stopped coming, but because they are all stretching out from 2 months to 3 or 4 months.

101   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 3:06am  

It seems true luxury goods (e.g. jets) are still selling very well. However, I heard that sales of "affordable" luxury goods are starting to hurt.

102   SP   2008 Jun 3, 3:33am  

OO Says:
My hairdresser ... said the her business suddenly fell off the cliff in the last two months

My neighbor's sister lost her job in some backwater of the financial "industry" a few months ago and my neighbor just helped her buy a partner share in a hair-salon in Cupertino. You can't time the market, but timing a freight train to get hit by is not that difficult...

103   SP   2008 Jun 3, 3:34am  

Peter P Says:
“affordable” luxury

Oxymoron.

104   SP   2008 Jun 3, 3:43am  

Peter P Says:
“affordable” luxury

Oxymoron. True luxury is when affordability is not a criterion.

If one has to worry about 'affordability', then it ceases to be a luxury and merely becomes an ill-advised indulgence of expensive temptations.

105   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 4:22am  

RE: Oxymoron

True, but the affordable "luxury" market used to be lucrative.

106   HeadSet   2008 Jun 3, 4:31am  

From OO's link:

THEIR spouses could leave them when they discover that their net worth has collapsed to eight figures from nine. Friends and business associates could avoid them as they pass their lunchtime tables at Barney’s or the Four Seasons. And these snubs could trickle down to their children.

How could such weak, socially conscious sheep have the courage, disipline, and smarts to make a fortune in the first place? I thought a succesful type would just take the lumps and accept a new challenge. Must have been an article on inheritees.

107   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 4:36am  

Anyway, divorces should be outlawed. We should not even recognize divorces carried out overseas.

I am not entirely against gay marriages, but I think something must be done to fix the institution of marriage.

We need a constitution amendment to define marriage as a contract that lasts as long as the natural lives of its participants.

108   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 4:37am  

How could such weak, socially conscious sheep have the courage, disipline, and smarts to make a fortune in the first place?

9-digit is hardly a fortune. IIRC the Forbes 400 list now starts at $2B.

109   HeadSet   2008 Jun 3, 4:50am  

Good point Peter. Even so, your income is just a rounding error to "nine figures."

110   HeadSet   2008 Jun 3, 4:52am  

Everyone notice the 1:30 selloff in the stock market? Some pundits suggest the cause was the news that the Fed will hold on rate cuts for a while.

111   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 4:53am  

Even so, your income is just a rounding error to “nine figures.”

More like the rounding error of a rounding error. ;)

112   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 4:57am  

Some pundits suggest the cause was the news that the Fed will hold on rate cuts for a while.

The market is the cause AND the effect.

113   Duke   2008 Jun 3, 6:00am  

The market has priced a pause in rate cuts at 96% probability for weeks. So no, I don't think the Fed has anything to do with the selloff.

What I am lookng for is the de-leveraging.

Interesting article that noted that banks are lending money to people to help them afford to buy the banks' troubled assets.

When those banks pop there is going to be a very loud kaboom.

As I look at asset re-pricing I do not see the rest of the world absorbing the current market cap of US stocks, so net loss will be real and large. Best I can guess is $2t to $5t of contraction.

114   OO   2008 Jun 3, 6:17am  

When cheap money was everywhere, if you were positioned close to the spigot known as the Wall Street, you didn't need to be that smart to make 7 or 8 figures a year. I know a few real-life examples like that. One of them is particularly "smart" to have bought a $4.xM house in 06 thinking that his 7-figure bonus could grow and last forever. I will check back with him to see if he still holds on to his depreciating asset in 12 months.

To be honest, I really enjoy watching how they will crawl out of their highly leveraged lifestyle as the great de-leveraging unfolds.

The weak snobs who never had the true courage, insight and smarts to make their fortune last will get wiped out in this financial tsunami, bring it on, let's have some redistribution of wealth from the paper-pushers to people who create real values.

115   Refuse to buy overpriced   2008 Jun 3, 6:50am  

Thanks OO, you made my day.

116   Richmond   2008 Jun 3, 8:15am  

How is everyone? It's been a while. I hope you all are well.

117   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 9:07am  

If Hilary concedes now, I would be very disappointed. :(

118   Richmond   2008 Jun 3, 9:16am  

I heard that she would be open to a vice-pres. nomination to "keep the party together". This is gonna be fun to watch.

119   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 9:19am  

I heard that she would be open to a vice-pres. nomination to “keep the party together”. This is gonna be fun to watch.

Fun indeed. I thought it will drag all the way to August. :roll:

I like Obama as a person but somehow I am still afraid of him.

120   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 9:50am  

Peter,

Is it because you, like many West Virginians think he is Muslim?

121   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 9:53am  

Or is it that he supports high speed rail like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw4zn-qw1oM

122   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 10:08am  

Is it because you, like many West Virginians think he is Muslim?

No. I am more worried about tax and welfare. But I guess he is much better than Clinton in these areas.

123   Peter P   2008 Jun 3, 10:10am  

High speed rail is NOT for America. Fancy trains cannot change who we are.

Do we really want to become France?

124   thenuttyneutron   2008 Jun 3, 11:25am  

Peter P,

Maybe we should not have made any rail roads and stuck to horses until we could invent the airplane.

High speed rail is not just an economic issue. It is a National Security issue. People can deny the peak oil theory and it will not change the fact that oil is getting more expensive to dig out of the ground. It will not change the fact that big oil fields all over are suffering from declining production. National security is one of the major reasons for making the interstate system. If you had had your way throughout history, we would have NOTHING.

125   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:08pm  

"High speed rail is NOT for America."

WOW!!!

126   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:11pm  

FYI - The ACELA is sold out on the east coast and it really isn't even high speed.

Good luck in CA if you don't vote for it this fall. Your grid lock is just starting!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD1QGNsRg74

127   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:16pm  

Invest 10 minutes in this video

128   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:34pm  

"High speed rail is NOT for America."

Also not for America - Banking regulations that are reasonable and ask that borrowers be able to pay the mortgage!

129   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:35pm  

“High speed rail is NOT for America.”

Also not for America - Wall street bankers that do not lend money to people with jobs or assets!

130   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:36pm  

meant - "NO" jobs or assets

131   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 12:39pm  

A bit off topic but funny-

My wife called me at work on Monday and said she came across a bike traffic jam a few blocks from home the likes of which she had never seen. Clearly there are more people using mass transit and riding bikes these days!

If it makes me a bad person or un Amerikan for saying so TOUGH!

132   Richmond   2008 Jun 3, 12:56pm  

High speed rail isn't for California. That is for sure. You would have gridlock trying to get to the train station and land prices prevent reasonable cost. The government subsidies would have to be so huge the net gain would be negative. Not to mention that they have to run hub to hub and every town would want a hub. Given the likelyhood that it wouldn't be able to stretch its legs, efficiency based on speed would be lost. I think that what is left is called BART. I love BART. BART kicks ass.

133   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 1:04pm  

Funny Richmand,

When I arrived at the LA train station last fall, I was struck with how little was going on in the area in terms of traffic and property development!

134   Paul189   2008 Jun 3, 1:07pm  

I think in the end the debate will not matter as the reality will take over just like we are seeing in the mortgage market market!

135   Richmond   2008 Jun 3, 1:28pm  

Paul,

True enough. Things will happen when they have to happen. I just keep thinking about the 6 billion + bucks for half darn bridge over here and I can't imagine what hundreds of miles of track would cost. Heck, for six billion dollars I could drain the Bay and build a friggin road. Oh well. Time will tell.

136   Eliza   2008 Jun 3, 3:24pm  

Eh, so the trains have to run hub to hub. This is not a problem. It would be possible to have a handful of major hubs--those hubs could then serve the surrounding area via high speed or other public transit.

Yes, people would prefer to have the train come to their doors. But trains can't be everywhere. And a good network of public transit is quite possibly inevitable. Already, the buses around here are getting full. And just last year there were tumbleweeds rolling down the aisles.

137   EBGuy   2008 Jun 3, 4:41pm  

The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill

138   EBGuy   2008 Jun 3, 4:42pm  

... cribbed from a guy on greencarcongress.com commenting on GM shuttering SUV/truck plants and vowing to build more small cars.

139   DennisN   2008 Jun 3, 11:05pm  

BART was supposed to go to San Jose in the mid 1960's. I was a child then. I'm now old and retired and still no BART to San Jose, even though it's now the largest city in the Bay Area. I doubt BART will really make it to San Jose in the next 100 years. By that I mean REAL BART, not some cockamamie link to light rail/bus services. And it will have to come down the Peninsula, NOT the East Bay, to make it worth people's time.

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