patrick.net

I'm a computer consultant and one one the biggest problems I've had is corporations bringing in H1-B's from India. They work very cheap and their technical skills are marginal. Some of these guys are luckly to be able to use the source code editor. I get to "train" them.

State of the Union was a waste of time, it always is. Obama doesn't care about unemployment. Like most Democrats, he likes high unemployment because it create a higher % of the population dependant of government handouts.

jvolstad says

and their technical skills are marginal.

I thought it was just me, that thought that. I'm amazed how non technical people in organizations, put so much technical stock in anyone that is from India.
I'm not saying anything about them as a whole as being any less or any more capable than anyone else. But I will say that many light weight Indian IT workers have gotten a lot of unwarranted mileage out of just being from India.

I once had one Indian tell me to stop using "Buzz Words", I was using common vernacular for the methodology for what we were doing. I was discussing my data object built using .net Generics collections. I modeling an Nteir system, this guy does all data connection and code inline for what ever function or routine he was using for a process.

Tenouncetrout says

jvolstad says

and their technical skills are marginal.

I thought it was just me, that thought that. I’m amazed how non technical people in organizations, put so much technical stock in anyone that is from India.
I’m not saying anything about them as a whole as being any less or any more capable than anyone else. But I will say that many light weight Indian IT workers have gotten a lot of unwarranted mileage out of just being from India.
I once had one Indian tell me to stop using “Buzz Words”, I was using common vernacular for the methodology for what we were doing. I was discussing my data object built using .net Generics collections. I modeling an Nteir system, this guy does all data connection and code inline for what ever function or routine he was using for a process.

When they don't even know what a PATHWAY is (HP Nonstop messaging), then I know things are not going to work out well. BTW, the off shore consulting companies put these guys in one bedroom apartments. When I say guys, usually around 5+ bodies. I'm guessing they must be sleeping on the floor.

The idea that "everything that engineers and scientists do" can be done "more cheaply" is fucking idiotic. It's the kind of thing I often hear from people who are neither engineers nor scientists and know fuck all about how these occupations actually work and what actual industry trends are.

Fun fact: There are more engineers employed in the united states -- in terms of both percentage of the population and absolute numbers -- than at any point in history. Our salaries are more than double the national average. There is a massive shortage of quality engineering talent, particularly in electrical, software, mechanical, and nuclear engineering. Anyone who interviews people for these jobs knows this already.

Yes, "training" (i.e. educating and encouraging) more engineers and scientists will help America, period. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

Kevin, anything you can do.... 10 engineers can do a lot better in India and for a lot less pay. Thats just how it is. Living wages there are $300/month.

I've learned that the hard way when one of the places I worked at simply outsourced it's programming staff. The CTO slipped once saying that he can hire 10 "monkeys" overseas for the same salary he pays one person here.

And thats the kind of mentality we all deal with. Someone who sees other humans as a means of profit and nothing more. If he calls Indian developers monkeys, I can just imagine what he called us in private conversation.

ChrisLA says

And thats the kind of mentality we all deal with. Someone who sees other humans as a means of profit and nothing more. If he calls Indian developers monkeys, I can just imagine what he called us in private conversation.

"Warm Bodies". That's the term an old manager at Mercury Interactive used to reference the people under him. To our face. What a tard. Shit blew up in his face in the end. HP bought 'em, what a bunch of idiots.

Tenouncetrout says

I was using common vernacular for the methodology for what we were doing.

It is hard to imagine anyone ever having a hard understanding what you are trying to say.

ChrisLA says

Kevin, anything you can do…. 10 engineers can do a lot better in India and for a lot less pay. Thats just how it is. Living wages there are $300/month.

Real, competent Indian (or Chinese) engineers make far, far more than $300 a month. My former manager moved back to bangalore and makes only slightly less than I do now.

I can guarantee that I can do better than 10, 20, or even 100 low quality hacks -- regardless of their nationality. Anyone who has ever actually worked at a software company knows that good people are worth many many times what bad people are worth to the organization.

Yes, an Indian will make, on average, less than an American living in Silicon Valley. An American living in Dallas or Charleston will also make less than an American living in Silicon Valley.

If tech companies primary goal was to minimize labor costs, they wouldn't operate out of manhattan and san francisco.

I’ve learned that the hard way when one of the places I worked at simply outsourced it’s programming staff. The CTO slipped once saying that he can hire 10 “monkeys” overseas for the same salary he pays one person here.
And thats the kind of mentality we all deal with. Someone who sees other humans as a means of profit and nothing more. If he calls Indian developers monkeys, I can just imagine what he called us in private conversation.

If you're a "programmer" and you work for a company that is not in the business of making software, your job will be outsourced, absolutely. The most likely place it will be outsourced to is IBM.

Companies that are in the business of producing software do not survive if they make cheap labor their top priority. That is why you will not find any real software companies (Microsoft, Oracle, Google, Apple, etc.) doing this. These companies hire the best people that they can find, wherever they can find them. That is why they have offices in major cities from Bangalore to Paris, from Beijing to NYC.

Nomograph says

I’m still waiting for China or India to produce a Google, or a Sun, a Microsoft, an Amgen, an Apple, a Genentech, a Gilead, a Cybersource, a Yahoo, or a Qualcomm. I won’t be holding my breath.

There are plenty of interesting and innovative Indian companies. These companies also hire quality employees, and compete for labor globally.

Any engineer who is having trouble finding work is probably not very good. If you are good and are having trouble finding work, please send me your resume, I could always use the referral bonus.

Yes Kevin, but the bottom line is that companies are cutting down costs. It is true that the largest once have not outsourced all their jobs yet overseas (only partially for now).

And like I said if one person is capable of being a good programmer so is any other person. There are plenty of good programmers out in India, they make more than $300/month, but they don't make Silicon Valley salaries.

I see a lot of companies however outsource. And it is not just programming, it's basically any job out there that does not require immediate presence. Typical scenario is someone gets a nice contract with the government or another company, calls up people in India and gets the work done really cheap while simply being a middle man. It's a growing trend to outsource all labor overseas.

Accounting, many companies outsource that to India. Radiology readings... someone in India is reading the xRays for large hospital networks. And the list goes on and on...

If you are the worlds best programmer or surgeon or whatever than yes you will find a work for a corporation that will squeeze it all out of you. But there are only a handful of world best. Everyone else is replaceable and thats how the trend is going.

If you are a small business, you simply can't compete with cheap labor from overseas.

ChrisLA says

If you are a small business, you simply can’t compete with cheap labor from overseas.

If you are a small business owner, you shouldn't be competing with cheap labor from over seas.
That would be a moot point. You should be offering goods and services that doesn't port well to over seas cheap labor.
Gibson and Fender guitars are a perfect example of the reality of domestic production vs over seas production.
Their quality guitars sell for higher end hundreds to several thousands of dollars, and some custom models tens of thousands. Where there foreign guitars sell for 99-600, two different buyers for two different products.

As for competing with Asian countries for alternative energy sources and products.
Well we're sucking hind Tit on it right now because of the Political Ass grabbing in this country for the last 10 years. Where we've politicized and made propaganda films to chastise the American people for not using alternative products that don't exist, while reprimanding them for using Oil. Even going as far as stifling growth by making Oil more expensive by 50 to 70 percent more than it should naturally be. Cap and trade, Fed policy, lack of Regulation, politicizing Oil production in this country making it more cost prohibitive, ect the list goes on, for what is at fault for high energy prices in this country. In the meantime our innovators have stood in queue with their hand out, waiting for incentives, grants and mandates for technologies that is not fully realized(in this country anyway). Those Asian countries and many European countries have had years of their business comunity invested and developed real products and solutions.

If we're sucking hind tit now, it's Washington's fault, and the Green movement stepping on its own feet trying to shove a big bag of nothing down our throat. Rather than just doing.

Tenouncetrout says

As for competing with Asian countries for alternative energy sources and products...

So oil has been 'made more expensive" purely to encourage people to use non-existent alternative sources?...

What would you have the "Green movement" doing?...

The point of H1Bs is supposed to be to bring in people who can do what Americans can't. There's supposed to be a vetting process where the companies bringing in people on H1B need to prove that there's no one local who can do what the imports can. If its not the case then I'd lay an anonymous complaint and sit back and see where it goes...

We're sucking 'hind tit' now because our education system has been churning out too many poorly educated people and because its a priority in the business community to export jobs & manufacturing overseas for the cheap labor. You can blame Washington for supporting this but you can't blame it for stifling innovation by offering too many handouts... Honestly, is there anything you don't blame Washington for?

kentm says

The point of H1Bs is supposed to be to bring in people who can do what Americans can’t.

Americans can't rent a 1 bedroom apartment and have 10 people live in it. Does that count?

kentm says

What would you have the “Green movement” doing?…

Get out of the Damn way, and set their tired Ass down.
If Oil wasn't so damn expensive in most part due to the politicizing of our energy policy to push agendas that are more self serving than practical. Then there would have been more money and resources, and more importantly initiative to invest in those alternative energies that investors in other countries already are on their accord. We stuck in gridlock, nothing happens in this country as long as the Idiots on the Hill debating something. Those than can, better not, and shouldn't are all on hold waiting to see how they'll fit to take advantage of the incentives. Meanwhile nothing gets passed and nothing gets done, before we know it, we've gridlocked our asses into being behind the times.

EightBall says

kentm says

The point of H1Bs is supposed to be to bring in people who can do what Americans can’t.

Americans can’t rent a 1 bedroom apartment and have 10 people live in it. Does that count?

This reminds me of college days very much, it wasn't that different.

Nomograph says

Kevin says

The idea that “everything that engineers and scientists do” can be done “more cheaply” is fucking idiotic.

100% true. The best companies spend large amounts of time, effort, and money recruiting top talent from top-tier universities. They do *not* recruit cheap labor from India and China except for low-level stuff that ITT Tech graduates with two-year degrees used to do.
I’m still waiting for China or India to produce a Google, or a Sun, a Microsoft, an Amgen, an Apple, a Genentech, a Gilead, a Cybersource, a Yahoo, or a Qualcomm. I won’t be holding my breath.
People like ChrisLA have been forecasting the downfall of America for as long as I remember. They are best ignored.

I work in the Internet business. If I want some cheap shit done by a human robot, I'll get someone from China or India to do it. If I want something where I need to rely on the person/need something high quality/need something well-written, then you go with an American.

I also think part of Godaddy's success as a registrar is they use US-only customer service.

Kevin says

The idea that “everything that engineers and scientists do” can be done “more cheaply” is fucking idiotic.

Kevin that is called denial.

ChrisLA says

Yes Kevin, but the bottom line is that companies are cutting down costs.

Some companies aren't. Many more are hiring.

It is true that the largest once have not outsourced all their jobs yet overseas (only partially for now).

It's not just "the largest". Plenty of small businesses (we tend to call them 'start ups' in this industry) too.

And like I said if one person is capable of being a good programmer so is any other person.

If one person is capable of being a doctor, so is any other person.
If one person is capable of being a professional athlete, so is any other person.
If one person is capable of being POTUS, so is any other person.

No, you are wrong. There is a massive, wide gulf between good "programmers" (as you call them) and bad ones.

Right now, the US produces many more good engineers per year than any other country, due to the quality of our engineering schools and our overall youth culture that encourages it (at least for boys, but that's a separate issue). India and China barely produce enough good engineers to satisfy their own local demand, nevermind all of the american companies trying to hire them as well.

Again, there is a massive shortage of quality engineering talent. If you haven't seen that, you're not a quality engineer.

There are plenty of good programmers out in India, they make more than $300/month, but they don’t make Silicon Valley salaries.

Many of them do, in fact, make silicon valley salaries. It is true that they will generally make less than an engineer in silicon valley, but it's not because the companies in question are cheap.

I see a lot of companies however outsource. And it is not just programming, it’s basically any job out there that does not require immediate presence. Typical scenario is someone gets a nice contract with the government or another company, calls up people in India and gets the work done really cheap while simply being a middle man. It’s a growing trend to outsource all labor overseas.

Outsourcing is not new. EVERY BUSINESS, since the invention of the concept, has outsourced non-core job functions. This is why companies like IBM Global Services, Convergys, or any other number of outsourcers exist.

A company that attempts to outsource a core job function will fail. There are zero examples of companies that have outsourced core job functions that are successful.

If you are the worlds best programmer or surgeon or whatever than yes you will find a work for a corporation that will squeeze it all out of you. But there are only a handful of world best. Everyone else is replaceable and thats how the trend is going.

Yes, if you're an incompetent hack you won't find work. Companies want to hire the best people they can find.

If you are a small business, you simply can’t compete with cheap labor from overseas.

There is ample proof that this is not the case. There are hundreds of thousands of small software companies that are doing just fine.

I have successfully started two different small businesses that were later sold. We had no trouble competing with "cheap foreign labor".