patrick.net

shrekgrinch says

Troy says

Pelosi is a centrist

That's gotta be the funniest thing you've ever said, Troy.
'centrist' my ass.

Not a centrist by a long shot...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California%27s_8th_congressional_district

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/43190/majorities-of-americans-and-britons-believe-the-war-in-iraq-was-a-mistake/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101902451.html

um yeah. I could do this all day.

klarek says

That's why when a smug ideologue like Troy tries to redefine the center, the left, or even the right (without the courtesy of providing a framework to his loony world), it is cheapening the discussion.

The problem is that Troy isn't redefining anything. Most people don't understand the political spectrum has two axes. If you look at the Political Compass link that mdovell sent, you will see that the mainstream Democratic party is right of center in the U.S. and the mainstream Republican party is farther right of center in the U.S. Moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans aren't actually "centrist." Our overall spectrum in the U.S. is quite narrow here in both directions.

We don't have a serious "left" party here as other countries do -- look at the typical "Green" party in some of listed countries. What we also don't really have is the top-left and bottom-right quadrants -- examples of these can be seen on the UK link. Mike Gravel was the only bottom-right candidate in the U.S. (http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008) -- technically he is right of most of the Republicans economically, but far more libertarian (and believes in things like universal healthcare and carbon taxes, but also a national sales tax to eliminate the IRS).

What's also funny is that Ron Paul actually doesn't fall bottom of center into libertarianism.

mdovell says

The odd thing is that much of the debt comes from the wars.

This well-known, although the Bush tax cuts created more of it:

http://www.offthechartsblog.org/what%E2%80%99s-driving-projected-debt/

We were on quite a good trajectory after the Clinton years, but it everything was screwed up quite royally afterward with the obsession over tax cuts even though our taxes are quite low overall.

@Troy

Thanks for the links... I am amazed at how much anger has been directed away from the Iraq "campaign" and into more trivial things.

Darn the NPR for putting the US in so much debt.

American in Japan says

@Troy
Thanks for the links... I am amazed at how much anger has been directed away from the Iraq "campaign" and into more trivial things.
Darn the NPR for putting the US in so much debt.

Iraq war is going to haunt us financially for decades to come and for what? No proof of WMD and no proof of danger to us from that regime. What a waste of money and American lives - much more then OBL did to us.

What $2-3 trillion could have bought for this country -- it's sickening really.

And the same Republicans who gave us this are back in power now, calling the shots.

We are a nation of idiots.

shrekgrinch says

Troy says

um yeah. I could do this all day.

What? Produce bogus polls that don't reflect actual reality?

lol--I think I understand now. Reality = whatever Shrek believes. It must be nice to live in that world.

shrekgrinch says

tatupu70 says

lol--I think I understand now. Reality = whatever Shrek believes. It must be nice to live in that world.

Ah, I see that just spouting denial-driven crap qualifies as an adequate response to the actual FACTUAL political realities I provided an example to?
For ObamaCrats, I guess so.

If you ever posted any FACTUAL information then you might have a point. Please show me the example you provided.

klarek says

(without the courtesy of providing a framework to his loony world), it is cheapening the discussion.

Left wants radical change
Centrism is open to change
Right fights any change, wants to undo what has been changed.

This is my loony world, yes. Ooga booga.

How about my dollars drive change and your dollars drive change and the market decides what ideas win and what ideas lose?

We're terrified of the unknown that we sacrifice our souls for parties because they're the most reflective of what we believe.

wtfcapinv says

How about my dollars drive change and your dollars drive change and the market decides what ideas win and what ideas lose

LOL. Faith in the "market". So f-ing inane.

wtfcapinv says

We're terrified of the unknown that we sacrifice our souls for parties because they're the most reflective of what we believe.

No, I see the quality of life of Canada, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Denmark and think we can learn a lot from them.

"Socialism" as practiced there isn't some unknown. What also isn't an unknown is how utterly f-ed up free-market systems become. They are entirely centrifugal in nature, making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

wtfcapinv says

the market decides what ideas win and what ideas lose?

What about when, gasp, market failure happens? Think banksters, among other things.

It's also hard to argue that it's government's fault when government's missteps are what "the market" wants.