patrick.net

mdovell says

Having said that though we've always had a form of cheap labor in the country going back 500+ years.

There is a reason why that is heavily discouraged now both legally and socially you know. Besides the obvious hit to thier education it also creates another form of a race to the bottom in wages by creating an excess of very cheap labor. If you make the kids work the cost of living will adjust gradually, just like it has over the years to dual income earner family where both parents instead of just one work. What happens is you get a short term boost in the economy from the added labor but long term the costs actually go up, and unless you get your hands on lots more credit or start making the kids take 2nd jobs and such everyone actually ends up poorer.

mdovell says

I'm no feminist but it can easily be illustrated that women were largely used for cheap labor domestically and in todays modern times we have illegal aliens.

Which is all a very bad thing correct? Even ignoring the economic race to the bottom in the labor market it starts for moral reasons alone this sort of stuff should be abhorrent to everyone.

mdovell says

But it was continent on then going to half pay and then going on full pay over the course of 90 days.

We already have the Probationary Period in the work place, there is no need for free labor as a "try before you buy" sort of scenario for the employers. Especially not when they keep paying less for more work.

thunderlips11 says

If labor is free, imagine how cheap the goods and services will be...

How can you afford anything when you have no wage or your wages have been eroded via competition from no pay scabs so that you can barely scrape by?

What you think your employer will pay you more if you work harder? Did you not notice the charts show productivity rising while profits went to the top during a recession and after it that I posted in the OP? You know that has been happing for over 30 years right?

Why the hell do people keep falling for variants of the Just World Fallacy? Especially in favor of employers that keep screwing people over?

bubblesitter says

Despite this some people on this forum think that home prices have already hit the bottom.

Its only the group who is trying desperately to unload their failed housing bets.

TTS it is time for us all to stop asking "What this country will do for us?" and start asking "What will we do for our country?"

I see a lot of desperation in our neighborhood, I can hire someone for an entire day and pay them $20 for it out here. Problems are everywhere, there are too many leeching off the society and not contributing enough.

Wall street avoids paying taxes, poor dont pay since they dont have, but there are plenty "middle class" avoid paying taxes by being cash only. Too many leech, too few contribute, thats our problem.

EMan says

TTS it is time for us all to stop asking "What this country will do for us?" and start asking "What will we do for our country?"

The 2 charts in the OP show we're already doing plenty and not getting anything from it even if you want to ignore the story, which BTW is about private for profit corps using free labor and not non-profit organizations that are trying to help anyone. So you're "Rah Rah Help AMERICA" quip is a total non sequitir. The rich and the private corps only helping themselves here, helping them more won't do a thing other than concentrate more wealth in the hands of fewer people at our expense.

EMan says

there are too many leeching off the society and not contributing enough.

No there isn't, look at the 1st chart in the OP. Then read the damn story. People are litterally doing more work for less and even free and you say they aren't doing enough? Do you have no reading comprehension at all or something? Also the only people leaching off of society are the super rich who are getting richer at your and my expense.

EMan says

poor dont pay since they dont have, but there are plenty "middle class" avoid paying taxes by being cash only. Too many leech, too few contribute, thats our problem.

Bzzzzt wrong. The poor pay sales tax and various state taxes as well even if they get a federal tax refund at the end of the year. Also most middle class people pay their taxes just fine. Most of the tax evasion is at the very top via taxing income from stocks differently then working wages and lots and lots of loopholes that just about only the rich and mega corps can use which is why they effectively end up paying no taxes or "just" less taxes than the middle class.

That's one way to effectively compete with the Chinese!

tts I'm not saying help the corps and slave away for free. I see the problem being with too few contributors in this country and too many takers.

Half the country doesn't pay income taxes at all, some of them are very wealthy dodging taxes using loopholes, many of them are simply dodge taxes by lying on their irs forms and hide their cash profits. Plenty of people take on services which they never paid a dime into. CA became the HMO and public education for the rest of countries on American continent.

We spend more per individual than we get back as a nation, that can't last forever. Something will have to give. Corporate loopholes in tax code, and all the other fraud and theft in the system that will take forever to list.

"The poor pay sales tax and various state taxes as well even if they get a federal tax refund at the end of the year."

And sales taxes can be avoided by shopping online. Amazon.com is now worth about 1/3rd of Walmart and it's existed for only 15 years. Sales taxes online are pretty controversial since many states encourage self reporting of out of state purchases of items but it does not really amount to that much. Anything that is a regressive tax can be argued that poorer people pay more of. So this also applies to tobacco and alcohol taxes, maybe bottle deposits, excise taxes and anything that is a fee from government. Not all states tax the same rates let alone the same items. In CA the sales taxes are high (local, county and "authorities add up)..at JFK in NYC they'll tax water..in FL they tax food but in MA we don't tax food or clothing (unless it cost more than $500).

The poor don't pay income taxes because they don't make enough. The rich don't pay income taxes because their earnings are in stock so it is capital gains tax. The other part is after awhile you simply have enough and don't need to consume as much. Bill Gates doesn't eat $500 worth of groceries a week. After needs are fulfilled then it is just wants. If you want to see extremes examine those that hit the huge powerballs and those that earned it. Some will spend money like water on huge houses, very expensive cars, boats, jewelry etc.

If you really want to see someone that was rich and owned a ton of material items just look at Michael Jackson's estate. Here's a link to browse the auction material
www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2009/michael-jackson/catalog-list.html
There was so much that if you want to buy this in book form it comes in a five volume set and costs $1,000!

The problem with a income tax is if people don't make income they don't have to pay it. The problem with a sales tax is if people don't shop as much they don't have to pay it. It makes more sense to tax property since that's the end game.

The other sad part is we have structured much of social systems assuming that most people do not have a dime in their name. It results in unintended consequences.
3,000 American millionaires filed for unemployment in 2008
http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/110930/millionaires-collecting-unemployment?mod=career-worklife_balance

Unemployment is supposed to help people between jobs..it does not consider what a person actually has!

There are often assumptions that people on social programs do not get their by their own means but sometimes this is true. I know of a man who loves his wife but divorced her and kept finances separate so they could go on the system and spend more time with each other.

It reminds me of how some aid doesn't work. Well if you give people food, water, shelter and clothing then there can be no economy providing those items. Who would pay for something if they can get it free? Aid organizations stay in business as long as there is a base to serve. Therefore there is a vested interest in maintaining a level of poverty to keep their jobs. Some professions exist because of itself.

Interesting article, it's definately a race to the bottom from here.

First it was the get your highschool diploma and you will be set. Next it was get your associates and you will be set and then came the bachelor's and so on.

Now it's work for us for free and you might someday in the future get a good job. I will add that this could be a good idea for a high school grad to learn something and perhaps leverage it into something that pays in the future.

A college debt laden grad? Not a chance, in order to make the college investment pay off one must work right away. Time is money lads! Especially when burdened by high debt!

Armando148 says

First it was the get your highschool diploma and you will be set. Next it was get your associates and you will be set and then came the bachelor's and so on.

Exactly!

Next it's work as a slave and then you will be a respectable and "educated" member of society.

MCMSinger says

Armando148 says

First it was the get your highschool diploma and you will be set. Next it was get your associates and you will be set and then came the bachelor's and so on.

Exactly!
Next it's work as a slave and then you will be a respectable and "educated" member of society.

Make no mistake about it we are headed full steam ahead for corporatocracy type economic system with giant corporations running the country economically.

It's only matter of time before they start handing out vouchers for food that must be purchased at specific stores in leiu of pay, as well as rent vouchers for only certain rental properties they themselves control in leiu of money. This is the only logical conclusion in a system that is intended to run as effeciently as possible and maximize profits without any laws in place.

I hate to say it since my first kid is on the way, but at least I'm aware of whats happening and not in a dark about like some ignorant American complaining about politics instead of opening their eyes.

Competition keeps increasing...it's world wide and probably won't stop. Some might argue that unionization would be the solution but that brings in other politics and other policies. If one votes to go on strike you don't really have a say in it..starting one from the ground up might be hard to run which would bring in national organizations.

Regarding rent vouchers technically Walmart is allowed to bank in Mexico..but only a minority of homes in the country are actually mortgaged (I think less than 5%)

EMan says

tts I'm not saying help the corps and slave away for free. I see the problem being with too few contributors in this country and too many takers.

Then you see wrong and are still ignoring the first chart whcih is cold hard evidence to the contrary of your opinion. Evidence, even bad evidence beats an opinion any day.

EMan says

We spend more per individual than we get back as a nation, that can't last forever. Something will have to give. Corporate loopholes in tax code, and all the other fraud and theft in the system that will take forever to list.

All they have to do is cut military spending and raise taxes for the super rich and maybe the kinda rich and all the budget issues, even for SS/Medicare/etc. go away. The budget issues you're seeing are the result of mismanagement by our leaders on both sides of the aisle and you're falling for their BS.

mdovell says

And sales taxes can be avoided by shopping online.

You think the poor and middle class buy most or even all of their food, gas, and clothes online? You know that only applies if you pay in a online store out of state too right? So shipping ususally means people save little or nothing except on a few very high dollar items, which the poor or middle class by few of. So are some dodging some taxes by buying stuff online out of state? Sure. Is this significant at all or even close to the amount of money we'd get from taxing the super rich more? Nope.

mdovell says

The poor don't pay income taxes because they don't make enough.

Which is good BTW. If you're so poor you don't pay taxes its really fucking bad for you so you shouldn't anyways.

mdovell says

The rich don't pay income taxes because their earnings are in stock so it is capital gains tax.

Which can be fixed by changing the law to tax capital gains higher, which would be easy, cheap, and fast to do the president and congress weren't bought and/or stupid.

mdovell says

The other part is after awhile you simply have enough and don't need to consume as much.

Yup. This is the other reason you need to tax the rich more. They simply aren't putting their money into the real economy. Oh sure they invest it....into Wall St. which is a joke these days.

mdovell says

The other sad part is we have structured much of social systems assuming that most people do not have a dime in their name.

No that is the result of lobbying and politics. You can't give the politicians the benefit of the doubt anymore. Means testing is one of those things that should be done but won't because of politics.

E-man says

Ah, I see. It's always someone else's fault for your own choice.

Nope read what I said and google "Catch-22" if you don't understand the term.

E-man says

Personally, I'm more than happy to work for free if I know I would learn something that would make me a lot of money down the road.

Read the damn article in the OP. These are not legitimate journeyman positions where there is a chance to move up. They're working people 5-6 days a week, sometimes in 16 hour shifts just to keep them from working a 2nd job so that they're stuck working for them until it sinks in that the're being screwed which takes a long time apparently since they play on people's hopes and dreams to get ahead. If you don't read the damn article and look at those 2 damn charts and comprehend it and then come at me all like "AMERICA!" and "BOOTSTRAPS!" yes I'm gonna call you a fool or worse.

mdovell says

Regarding rent vouchers technically Walmart is allowed to bank in Mexico..but only a minority of homes in the country are actually mortgaged (I think less than 5%)

I expect the coporate rent and food vouchers to start to occur here in the U.S in the next decade or so, it's actually a beautiful sysem from the corporate point of view, you can lock in your employees to a product/service you have a direct financial stake in. The voucher will be key because it will give the illusion of choice.

This is just one of the many facets I see coming with the current trend of corporate dogma here in the United States, soon to known as the United Shithole to more prosperous nations. Make no mistake about it we are to blame for this and this can no longer be stopped.......

Armando148 says

I expect the coporate rent and food vouchers to start to occur here in the U.S in the next decade or so, it's actually a beautiful sysem from the corporate point of view, you can lock in your employees to a product/service you have a direct financial stake in. The voucher will be key because it will give the illusion of choice

Lol,,, you mean what Google is doing with its employees.

thomas.wong1986 says

Armando148 says

I expect the coporate rent and food vouchers to start to occur here in the U.S in the next decade or so, it's actually a beautiful sysem from the corporate point of view, you can lock in your employees to a product/service you have a direct financial stake in. The voucher will be key because it will give the illusion of choice

Lol,,, you mean what Google is doing with its employees.

Can you expand on this? I'm unaware of this.

Looks like Truckers are the next group to work for free:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0706/Landmark-US-Mexico-trucking-agreement-resolves-15-year-conflict

thunderlips11 says

Looks like Truckers are the next group to work for free:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0706/Landmark-US-Mexico-trucking-agreement-resolves-15-year-conflict

Yeah, a widespread agreement like this would decimate the U.S trucking industry. This is just a ploy to have a majority of the trucking routes in the U.S based out of northern Mexico. This will greatly reduce trucking costs to U.S businesses as Mexico wages will now be paid as the trucking will be based out of Mexico not to mention it's cheaper to maintain the trucks in Mexico. This would decimate one of the last few middle class jobs available to high school grads.

Once again this is exactly what will continue to happen as long as corporations are running the government and the corporate dogma continues on behalf of the American people.

This country was not founded by corporations for the corporations but it's increasingly so it would seem. I'm not advocating for socialist type solutions but rather for the American people to wake up and realize this country will gradually decline if you allow corporations to run the country unchecked their only purpose is to increase profit by any means.

I should note that it is the Walmart of Mexico which is technically a separate country. Walmart usually does not operate under its name in other countries they just buy out other chains (Asda comes to mind in the UK)

"You think the poor and middle class buy most or even all of their food, gas, and clothes online? You know that only applies if you pay in a online store out of state too right? So shipping ususally means people save little or nothing except on a few very high dollar items, which the poor or middle class by few of. So are some dodging some taxes by buying stuff online out of state? Sure. Is this significant at all or even close to the amount of money we'd get from taxing the super rich more? Nope."

Certainly gas taxes are regressive but that implies that poor people drive cars (they don't). Not all states tax clothing or food. Many online retailers have free shipping if above a given amount (amazon it is $25) there is also a "prime" membership for I think $70 or so that gives free 2 day shipping for a year.

"Which can be fixed by changing the law to tax capital gains higher, which would be easy, cheap, and fast to do the president and congress weren't bought and/or stupid."

I have heard a interesting piece that a 1% tax on all stock transactions would amount to quite a bit. Capital gains would simply cause people to buy and sell more shares at once which might make it more volatile.

"Yup. This is the other reason you need to tax the rich more. They simply aren't putting their money into the real economy. Oh sure they invest it....into Wall St. which is a joke these days."

You are acting as if the country can simply take money and that's not the case. A tax has to be on a good/service. Let's say that Bill Gates simply cashes out...he pays a ton of initial taxes...let's say he has 40 billion and he pays 20 billion in taxes. He doesn't have to work and then has no capital gains since it was all taxed out. Ok..then what..

We don't have a direct tax on wealth we have taxes on the means of which that it is to become wealthy (which I would argue is worse)

The other aspect is that government spending is not dependent on revenue..otherwise a deficit would be impossible. If government is the source of its own funds then it doesn't really need the tax payer. But then you might add that's simply printing money up. We'll we've been doing it since 1933!

The left hasn't specifically said what they would really use money for that would lift things up. National health care will not lower unemployment since it means MORE people will be able to work and thus it might rise unemployment. Public transportation? Trains can help but it can take time for employers to focus on stations where they are. I'm in Mass and we have had trains here for probably 100 years...commuter rails go into suburbs. The governor has planned for an extension to some other cities with high unemployment. But because these are further out it might end up costing $3,000 or so a year just to take the train...and it also implies as if they are all going to find jobs in Boston. By enabling more people to be able to work it doesn't raise wages in aggregate.

When the recovery act was announced I was under the impression it would do things like insulate government buildings, swap out light bulbs, more roads and bridges etc. But it didn't work.

Public works projects like the 30's won't work as we're fully developed. I highly doubt the country would gain by upgrading central air in death valley.

We used to have factory towns 100 or so years ago that did have housing. The same cries heard domestically about a downturn in manufacturing, losing industry to cheaper places, that those now doing that are not as trained...was said 100 years ago up north. Plenty of factories moved down south and there are old mills all across new england. Southern labor was cheaper and regulations were (and some still are) lower. So what did we do up north? We continued the high taxes and regulations...

If taxes are high enough then people and businesses start leaving and business could consolidate to various monopolies (which happens with health care per state).

If taxes go up it isn't something suddenly so therefore people prepare for it. They'll maximize deductions ahead of time or simply donate it away. Just like when companies announce they'll raise prices some buy ahead of time to hedge against inflation.

I hope everyone realizes that trying to make generalizations based on a mainstream media trend article is probably not a good idea, right?

Here's a great article called "How to Write a Trend Piece" that explains why:

http://ihatenyt.com/2011/01/15/how-to-write-a-trend-piece/

There's competition for 16 hr workday unpaid jobs?

....