patrick.net

Negative correlation of unions to executive pay. Very tight.

nuke says

Negative correlation of unions to executive pay. Very tight.

Executive pay has gone up in a curve that looks exponential, not a straight line, the way union membership has dropped.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/04/08/business/

marcus says

This union pay and contract ATTRACTS QUALITY TEACHERS !
I don't see how this is "controlling schools."
IF you feel that education is something that we as a country or state can't afford, then just say so. But honest and fact based discussion would be nice.

Is this the best argument you have Marcus? If the teachers are of such high "quality" then why do our public schools have such bad educational outcomes? But of course it it is the students that are defective right?

If a school disctrict has ALL of its trustees elected by the teacher's union financial support then how is that not "controlling" our public schools? This is not some "evil talk radio" comment; it is a fact. I have seen the election of union supported school board members over and over again here in Sacramento. One school board member up for re-election replied to a policy question like this: "I'm not sure; let me check with the teacher's union and I'll get back to you." She won with 60% of the vote.

Paying teachers more is not the answer. Outcomes over time are the answer to evaluating teachers and teacher's unions. I noticed you did not say or argue that teacher's in unions have had excellent educational outcomes in California over the last 30 years and that is why we should pay teachers more and that is the value that teacher's unions bring to our society. If teacher's in unions were doing an excellent job then we would not be having this discussion.

cdw7503 says

If teacher's in unions were doing an excellent job then we would not be having this discussion.

If you are truly interested, and would like some links, and would like to learn more about education and problems in education let me know. I'm just a teacher on the front lines, but it seems to me you have it all figured out.

In a nutshell, "it's all the teachers fault."

So califonia is 47th in spending for education. All my classes will have over 40 students per class this coming year. Some may be over 50.

What was your question again ?

marcus says

Teacher's interests are the public's interests. How many great teachers would be replaced by young teachers (the revolving door) for much lower pay if not for unions ?

That's why Monopolist Schools should be abolished. There should be competing schools and parents should decide where to send their kids. BTW, if you really believe school administrators don't want good teachers but only cheap teachers, even under the current system, they can let go every single teacher after 1-3 years and never give tenure to anyeone

How many people get in to teaching because they want to give back, but without the prospect of decent pay and benefits that is there because of unions, they wouldn't be able to ?

Give back? Sounds to me like a robber taking your wallet, swipe all the cash inside then toss the empty wallet back at you. The teachers who want to "give back" should be allowed to found their own schools and teaching facilities. That's why Monopolist Schools should be abolished, or at least be forced to compete for their funding amongst numerous schools that parents can choose from.

marcus says

So califonia is 47th in spending for education. All my classes will have over 40 students per class this coming year. Some may be over 50.

Cut the teachers' salaries or get rid of the benefits, then use the same amount of money to hire more teachers from among the newly minted wannabe teachers looking for jobs. That solves both the problem of class room size and the problem of unemployment.

Reality says

BTW, if you really believe school administrators don't want good teachers but only cheap teachers

Administrator aren't the ones who decide how much to spend on teachers. It comes from the school board and from higher levels in government.

How much we spend on education is really what this is all about. Some want to argue for competition. I've addressed this before. There would be some advantages, and some disadvantages. It probably can't really be done right without totally destroying public education.

Question, what percentage of public schools do you think are really really good ?

marcus says

Regarding seniority, I'm not that senior, but I'll tell you one of the things that happens under the seniority system, which isn't perfect, but it's how it works. People pay dues in their early years. They teach classes that maybe wouldn't be their choice. They get less honors classes etc.

hmm, what's that fantasy fairy tale about wanting to "give back" again? You mean the senior gansters get to pick over the loot first before the new gang members take their turn at raping the taxpayers?

I'm unaware of ANY human enterprise in which their isn't a hierarchy of job assignments.

The FNG always gets the shit jobs.

Wake me when the general is crawling through the muck alongside the privates, or the senior salesman is cleaning the toilets and delivering memos. Suggest otherwise and you'll be some kind of SOCIALIST demanding everyone work their day in the community fields.

Reality says

hmm, what's that fantasy fairy tale about wanting to "give back"

hmmm, another a.h.... It's just an expression. It could mean someone who feels that the time they spent in school helped them to be who they are.

But it could also be someone who is fortunate in any number of ways independent of school, and knows it, and has learned that "giving" and "helping others" etc. can be a more rewarding (even from an enlightened selfish standpoint ), more meaningful way to spend the 50,000 plus hours of their work life, than just grinding away at making money.

I'm sure that many that go in to health care, science, social work, even law (sometimes), or criminal justice, setting up a website like this one, vetrinary science, or even politics (sometimes) and many other fields are at least partly motivated by such thinking.

marcus says

In a nutshell, "it's all the teachers fault."
So califonia is 47th in spending for education. All my classes will have over 40 students per class this coming year. Some may be over 50.
What was your question again ?

You for got UNION when you stated it's all the teacher's fault. Most teachers are good teachers. But the union will not let bad teachers get fired. This is obvious if you look at union run public schools. And ask any principal if he can avoid the "lemon dance" with these bad teachers?

If the teacher's union would have allowed all teachers to take across the board pay and benefit cuts then we would not have 40+ students per class coming up this year.

The question always has been this marcus: What value does public sector unions bring to our State and local communities if any? How does raising taxes all the time to meet the demands of public sector unions benefit society?

There is always a point where taxes become too much of a burden to our society. California voters have said now is that time. Make due with what you have to spend. The unions say ok lets see how bad we can make our public schools to teach Californians a lesson of who really controls our schools. In the end, its the students in CA that lose with 40:1 because of selfish union demands. And students have been on the losing end of education for the last 30 years at least. How does that benefit our society? It doesn't; why is that so hard to see marcus?

cdw7503 says

But the union will not let bad teachers get fired.

That's not true. The big thing these days is "evaluation." You don't think that unions change and can respond to criticism (even from within) over their shortcomings ?

Nothing is written in stone, one teachers union is different from the next, and they are all adapting to pressures, from within and from society in general.

cdw7503 says

If the teacher's union would have allowed all teachers to take across the board pay and benefit cuts then we would not have 40+ students per class coming up this year.

That's more made up bs. We are in our third year of furlough days.

cdw7503 says

The unions say ok lets see how bad we can make our public schools to teach Californians a lesson of who really controls our schools.

You're obviously still learning (NOT !!)

cdw7503 says

And students have been on the losing end of education for the last 30 years at least. How does that benefit our society?

From a Dianne Ravitch critique of "waiting for Superman:"

There was a time—which now seems distant—when most people assumed that students’ performance in school was largely determined by their own efforts and by the circumstances and support of their family, not by their teachers. There were good teachers and mediocre teachers, even bad teachers, but in the end, most public schools offered ample opportunity for education to those willing to pursue it. The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/

(edit: had to edit some messed up quotes in this - confusing to anyone who read it right after I posted it)

I do not like the term public school. I prefer "Failure Factory". I support higher taxes on the underclass so we can expand the success of the Failure Factories. For example LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in California while producing students who achieve the lowest test scores. This is a wonderful success in producing underling failures. My hat is off to you LAUSD.

After all, my boots aren't going to lick themselves.

Reality, and CDW, you are obviously alter egos of trolls I already have on ignore. So I will add you to the list now, and you can now make any ridiculously stupid, dishonest and factually deficient comment you would like, without a response from me.

As the kids say, "haters gonna hate."

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

For example LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in California

A lie.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/26/995141/see-how-well-your-school-district.html

marcus says

Administrator aren't the ones who decide how much to spend on teachers. It comes from the school board and from higher levels in government.

The administrators decide who gets tenure who doesn't. That's the issue I was addressing when you said that without union the more experienced teachers would be let go and substituted by new teachers.

How much we spend on education is really what this is all about.

In other words, failures should be rewarded with more funding. That's exactly the problem with Monopolist Schools.

Some want to argue for competition. I've addressed this before. There would be some advantages, and some disadvantages. It probably can't really be done right without totally destroying public education.

The Monopolist Schools have done a fine job of destroying the Monopolist Education system already.

Question, what percentage of public schools do you think are really really good ?

People ask silly questions like that should not have the right to teach my kids. What the heck is "really really good"? Different parents have different standards on what is "really really good": some want special attention to their gifted kids, some want every kid treated the same so their retard can feel a sense of belonging. The two goals are not compatible, yet both are eminently understandable coming from any parent who is blessed with a kid that is unusual. That's why Monopolist School scheme would never work.

marcus says

But it could also be someone who is fortunate in any number of ways independent of school, and knows it, and has learned that "giving" and "helping others" etc. can be a more rewarding (even from an enlightened selfish standpoint ), more meaningful way to spend the 50,000 plus hours of their work life, than just grinding away at making money.

I'm sure that many that go in to health care, science, social work, even law (sometimes), or criminal justice, setting up a website like this one, vetrinary science, or even politics (sometimes) and many other fields are at least partly motivated by such thinking.

Then you are not talking about "giving back" at all, but about extorting the taxpayer into paying you for something that you want to do! Should all wannabe bands be paid by the government extorting money from taxpayers because making music is what the band members enjoy doing for the 50,000hrs of their working lives? Actually, shouldn't the typical private sector employee work on average 88,000 over 40 years? 2200hrs per year. Being able to retire after only 50,000hrs when the rest of the society has to work 75% more hours is just one of the parameters showing just how grossly overpriced Monopoly School teachers have become. Little wonder people want to be in that privileged position feeding at the trough if they can get it.

A person deserves to be paid as a teacher only if the parents of kids say so with their own money. Just like, a chef deserves to be paid only if the patrons are willing to pay for the food he/she cooks up. Food is after all far more fundamental to human survival than even education. Should we use tax money to subsidize good-for-nothing chefs who waste raw food? and give them more funding when they turn good ingredients into unappetizing cooked food? It's all about how much we spend on the Monopolist restaurant, right?

marcus says

Reality, and CDW, you are obviously alter egos of trolls I already have on ignore. So I will add you to the list now, and you can now make any ridiculously stupid, dishonest and factually deficient comment you would like, without a response from me.

As the kids say, "haters gonna hate."

I read your posts for the first time this afternoon. You are supplying another piece evidence for your low intelligence and analytical skills, narrow-mindedness, and overall disqualification to be the teacher of any promising mind. A mind is terrible thing to waste. I feel sorry for your students.

marcus says

That's not true. The big thing these days is "evaluation." You don't think that unions change and can respond to criticism (even from within) over their shortcomings ?
Nothing is written in stone, one teachers union is different from the next, and they are all adapting to pressures, from within and from society in general

Maybe some of the really obvious bad teachers get fired. But as one teacher at my daughter's school said to me last year: "You have to pretty much show up drunk to get fired here."

My other daughter's algebra teacher gave her a B in her Algebra class last year and begged me to allow her to go on to Geometry next year in high school. She took the Algebra Final at a private high school and got a 54% on it. My daughter got a 86% on the public school final... That Alegbra teacher obviously not very good and my daughter now gets to repeat Algebra this coming year with the exact same text book she used last year.

Your theory, marcus, does not match the facts on the ground in public schools my daughters attend.

marcus says

If the teacher's union would have allowed all teachers to take across the board pay and benefit cuts then we would not have 40+ students per class coming up this year.
That's more made up bs. We are in our third year of furlough days.

Go to any school board meeting and you will see that school board members elected by teacher's unions have proposed increasing class size to off-set major cuts to all unions members serving in the school district. And shocker these same school board members voted to increase class sizes. Yes there have been some furloughs that have been accepted, but how does teaching our students less days in the school year benefit the students?? Teachers already have the entire summer off.

cdw7503 says

Teachers already have the entire summer off.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the "entire summer" is now 6-8 weeks in most areas. During which you don't get paid. Or you can choose to stretch your paycheck over 12 months for convenience. Either way it's not a "paid vacation" for teachers.

The point of furloughs is saving money during budget cuts and nothing more. It has to do with MATH, a difficult subject for many. Last year we gave you X, now we are giving you X-2 so cut on supplies or teach more students with fewer teachers so the budget balances.

As has been said elsewhere:

If teaching is such a road to the fatcat life, why aren't YOU in the applicant line.

This thread is chock full of lamebrain statements.

marcus says

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

For example LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in California

A lie.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/26/995141/see-how-well-your-school-district.html

Good sir, the Chartist muckrakers at the SacBee manipulated the numbers and do not factor in benefits. I quote: "Notes: Average teacher salaries are often a reflection of three things: An area's cost of living, how much the district is willing to pay and the number of experienced teachers the district employs."

Indeed LAUSD teachers are among the highest paid in the nation.

http://m.vvdailypress.com/opinion/teachers-11599-teacher-lausd.html

marcus says

The unions say ok lets see how bad we can make our public schools to teach Californians a lesson of who really controls our schools.
You're obviously still learning (NOT !!)

This is a classic union tactic. Squeeze the tax payer as much as possible so they will give in to tax increases. If they don't give in then squeeze them some more until it really hurts.

I'm so glad we have public sector unions who would rather hurt the children in our society rather than take pay and benefits cuts for the good of our community. Our children have to learn that when adults act selfishly enough they get their way even if it hurts our children and their education. Thanks for making the public sector union selfishness argument marcus it really makes sense now.

cdw7503 says

but how does teaching our students less days in the school year benefit the students??

Okay, you got me. I'll respond. Some of the furlough days occur during holidays.

And yes, it's true that unions try to preserve hard won pay gains (that were achieved prior to 2008.) We're now paid less than 2008 because of the furlough days, but the salary schedule is still the same, so that in the event the economy comes back a little we won't have to fight up to those 2008 levels again. (They will just stop the furloughs)

It's a crime that those selfish teachers are hoping that maybe in 2012 or 2014 they might be able to receive their full 2008 pay again. Fucking selfish greedy teachers.

Sorry everyone, I'll try not to unignore again.

Vicente says

I'm unaware of ANY human enterprise in which their isn't a hierarchy of job assignments.

The FNG always gets the shit jobs.

Wake me when the general is crawling through the muck alongside the privates, or the senior salesman is cleaning the toilets and delivering memos. Suggest otherwise and you'll be some kind of SOCIALIST demanding everyone work their day in the community fields.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

We are not talking about separate assignments for accomplishing the same project here. The examples you gave are bureaucracies; the military being especially odd in this context. I suppose the union is somewhat better than the de jure slavery system that is the military.

The example Marcus gave, all teachers preferring to teach 6th grade instead of 2nd, presumably because the 6th grade is easier and more enjoyable whereas the 2nd grade is a pain in the rear end. So exactly does Marcus' earlier point about the value of experience jive with this? After a teacher gains 5 years of teaching experience teaching the more difficult 2nd grade, she gets to teach the easier 6th grade?! How the heck does "experience" work in the Monopolist School system anyway? It's like saying a doctor has to start with the unglamorous and difficult brain surgery first, then after a few years, he gets to be plastic surgeon touching up people's noses for big bucks. It's not specialization or experience we are talking about when it comes to Monopoly Schools, but mafia spoils division.

marcus says

Reality, and CDW, you are obviously alter egos of trolls I already have on ignore. So I will add you to the list now, and you can now make any ridiculously stupid, dishonest and factually deficient comment you would like, without a response from me.
As the kids say, "haters gonna hate."

This is marcus's way of saying: "I can not counter your facts with facts of my own so I am going to call you a "hater" and hope no one notices that my arguments don't hold up when challenged."

Thank you marcus for trying. Maybe you will win the day when others who do not know any better will agree with you and the class warfare "hatred" you speak.

Why should I bother? Whatever I say, it'll go in one ear and right out the other.

You aren't here to actually LISTEN to ANYONE.

Me, I've learned a few things on this forum. I've even admitted I'm wrong sometimes. Your type? Never.

Vicente says

I don't know if you've noticed, but the "entire summer" is now 6-8 weeks in most areas. During which you don't get paid. Or you can choose to stretch your paycheck over 12 months for convenience. Either way it's not a "paid vacation" for teachers.
The point of furloughs is saving money during budget cuts and nothing more. It has to do with MATH, a difficult subject for many. Last year we gave you X, now we are giving you X-2 so cut on supplies or teach more students with fewer teachers so the budget balances.
As has been said elsewhere:
If teaching is such a road to the fatcat life, why aren't YOU in the applicant line.
This thread is chock full of lamebrain statements.

My sister makes over $80K a year with full benefits 12 months a year as a teacher here in Sac. Somehow she makes it stretch for 12 months and is free to get a part time job in the summer if she wants. She also gets paid vacation/holidays on top of that. Her total compensation package is $125K a year. And she gets the summer off. Maybe teachers are not going to get rich off that but the package is better than 90% of the private sector packages offered in CA.

Vicente says

Why should I bother? Whatever I say, it'll go in one ear and right out the other.
You aren't here to actually LISTEN to ANYONE.
Me, I've learned a few things on this forum. I've even admitted I'm wrong sometimes. Your type? Never.

Because maybe I am right. If I am not then prove me wrong.

marcus says

Okay, you got me. I'll respond. Some of the furlough days occur during holidays.
And yes, it's true that unions try to preserve hard won pay gains (that were achieved prior to 2008.) We're now paid less than 2008 because of the furlough days, but the salary schedule is still the same, so that in the event the economy comes back a little we won't have to fight up to those 2008 levels again. (They will just stop the furloughs)
It's a crime that those selfish teachers are hoping that maybe in 2012 or 2014 they might be able to receive their full 2008 pay again. Fucking selfish greedy teachers.
Sorry everyone, I'll try not to unignore again.

You did not answer the question. How does teachers agreeing to teach less days benefit the students who need teachers to learn in the classroom? I'm sorry that I don't sympathize with unions who are unwilling to ask members to make sacrafices. The teachers can always go teach some where else if they feel they are being mistreated by the public they have choosen to serve, can't they?

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

marcus says

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

Calling someone a "troll" doesn't make your agruments any stronger marcus. If you can not support your agruments with facts then maybe you should leave marcus. I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Vicente says

Why should I bother? Whatever I say, it'll go in one ear and right out the other.

You aren't here to actually LISTEN to ANYONE.

Me, I've learned a few things on this forum. I've even admitted I'm wrong sometimes. Your type? Never.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Please stick to the topic instead of content-free personal attack. Even if you put in a few barbs in the middle of pointing out where you think my analysis is wrong, I'd be okay with that.

marcus says

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

Content-free name-calling is essentially admitting that you are running out of argument. If you have any thing substantive to say about my analysis, I'm all ears.

From Wikipedia

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

What I usually mean by "troll" is specifically this part: "with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] "

About 80% of the posts, and 50% of the comments from our king of the Patrick.net Trolls (Shrek) fit this description. On the topic of unions, we now seem to have a few trolls. Although it may be just one or two under various identities.

Vicente is right. These guys know nothing about education, except what they have been told on right wing talk radio. And they certainly aren't going to learn anything from me.

If readers of this forum choose to believe their lies, and stupidity, that is their choice. I can't worry about it.

Vicente says

I don't know if you've noticed, but the "entire summer" is now 6-8 weeks in most areas. During which you don't get paid. Or you can choose to stretch your paycheck over 12 months for convenience. Either way it's not a "paid vacation" for teachers.

Of course it is paid vacation. The annual pay is calculated to be comparable to a worker holding a job all those 12 months. In calculating retirement benefits, each school year is counted as a year of service, not a 3/4 year of service.

If teaching is such a road to the fatcat life, why aren't YOU in the applicant line.

For the same reason that I did not become a realtwhore in the bubble years, and I'm not becoming a banker now. I did actually volunteer teaching after-school at middle school and at community college . . . and I didn't have kids at either place. I wasn't paid in anything except for the kids' appreciations. So I know a thing or two about "giving back." It most emphatically does not involve unions.

This thread is chock full of lamebrain statements.

That's a good comment on some of what you and Marcus have written.

marcus says

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

If you can't even engage in intelligent debate and exchange of ideas, how can you be a competent teacher? as opposed to a brain-washer?

cdw7503 says

Because maybe I am right. If I am not then prove me wrong.

Easy you call summer a "vacation" for teachers. It is not, it is unpaid time off, as certain as any furlough, or part-time worker. Most teachers are not fatcatting around Barbados during the summer, they are working as lifeguards or just looking after their own kids. Summer is only a "vacation" for students who are compelled to be at school the rest of the year.

So you could say you were wrong about that.

marcus says

What I usually mean by "troll" is specifically this part: "with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] "

What exactly was the intention of your posting the ridiculously cooked / renormalized graphs? To show your own lack of basic math skills comparing any two linear fucntions?

These guys know nothing about education, except what they have been told on right wing talk radio.

Except my wife was a full time teacher, and I taught on voluntary basis myself for years. On top of that, I do not listen to any right wing talk radio at all. I always leave my radio on NPR when I'm driving, and that's the only time I listen to radio. Yes, I laugh at some of their silly analyses.

Vicente says

cdw7503 says

Because maybe I am right. If I am not then prove me wrong.

Easy you call summer a "vacation" for teachers. It is not, it is unpaid time off, as certain as any furlough, or part-time worker. Most teachers are not fatcatting around Barbados during the summer, they are working as lifeguards or just looking after their own kids. Summer is only a "vacation" for students who are compelled to be at school the rest of the year.

Is this how low the standards are nowadays? They stay home look after their own kids therefore they deserve to be paid by taxpayers at $6k+ per month? What is this? A welfare program? So long as you don't go to Barbados (where I have never been either in my whole life), you can have 3 months a year vacation, getting off at 3pm the other 9 months, and retire after 50,000 hrs of life time work instead of 88,000 like most other people. No wonder there are zillions of certified teacher wannabes looking for jobs.

Here's the easy solution: let's slash the salary in half, let two new teachers in, and the existing teachers drawing double the wage had better prove themselves to be twice as good in teaching; otherwise there is a ready solution to reducing both teacher-student ratio and unemployment rate.