patrick.net

terriDeaner says

People don't tend to use phrases like "there is a clear divide" and "there are clear differences" and then make hard-and-fast rules like "Saying there isn't ignores history" unless they are trying to MAKE HARD AND FAST RULES!!!
Thanks for playing, please come again!

Come on-you're really going to tell me what "people" do? Are you qualified to speak to what "people" do?

If you construed my post to imply that ALL Dems and ALL Reps vote the same way (as I described), I am very sorry. I thought it was understood that I was talking in generalities because everyone knows that even among Reps and Dems there are differences.

So, now that we have the matter of your disingenuous nitpicking out of the way, the point of my post remains.

Do you agree that there are significant difference between the parties or not?

terriDeaner says

And yes, my EXCEPTIONS violated your absolutist statements, and exposed their flawed construction.
You can think whatever you like, but I know you didn't show me up... you little scamp!

Well, good. My point was never to show anyone up--I wanted to discuss the difference between the two parties and show that they do exist. Sounds like you'd rather argue with me about the true meaning of my statements.

thunderlips11 says

On the latter note, Paul has said many times that he wouldn't destroy the social welfare state overnight, that it would be too disruptive and that it is not his top priority, which is breaking up the banking cartel.

Seems consistent with his No/Absent vote on repealing Glass-Stegal.

A politician who follows through with what they say they'll do... amazing.

terriDeaner says

A politician who follows through with what they say they'll do... amazing.

Yes, imagine that. :)

It's much more refreshing than "More Humble Foreign Policy" and "Withdraw the troops by 2010".

There is a difference between making a concession to get something in return - compromise - and simply giving concessions in return for nothing. When the latter happens too often, it makes you wonder if you've gotten suckered.

Maybe because Americans are so sensitive about being suckered, they ignore it or make excuse for it when it happens.

C'mon now tatupu, I'm just yanking yer chain a bit. Don't make is so easy for me!

tatupu70 says

Sounds like you'd rather argue with me about the true meaning of my statements.

Not really... but it would help if your statements reflected your 'true meaning', and if your 'true meaning' didn't seem to be a moving target.

And no, outside social wedge issues, I don't think that the two main parties are really all that different, particularly in practice. They take money form corporate special interests and legislate according to the desires of their masters.

And don't take my word for it, check out:

http://www.opensecrets.org/

They are all on the take, red or blue.

thunderlips11 says

Maybe because Americans are so sensitive about being suckered, they ignore it or make excuse for it when it happens.

Sounds about right...

The more I think about it, the less I see this as orchestrated "conspiracy".

It's more of a groupthink. Look, everyone who speaks publicly whether "media" or whatever is heavily molded themselves by corporate influence. If they do not work directly for a big corporation themselves like most media people, they are at least influenced by a world that prides itself on being "corporate friendly". Hobnobbing with the moneyed and influential is the their way of getting "access" and is the sea in which they swim. Therefore they just NATURALLY see someone who wants to take an axe to the FIRE cartel as some kind of loon. He is a threat to their established order.

terriDeaner says

And no, outside social wedge issues, I don't think that the two main parties are really all that different, particularly in practice. They take money form corporate special interests and legislate according to the desires of their masters.
And don't take my word for it, check out:
http://www.opensecrets.org/
They are all on the take, red or blue.

Sure. It's very expensive to run a campaign these days. I'm 100% for finance reform to take the money out of politics. I think it's the #1 problem and nothing else is close.

But the simple act of taking a campaign contribution doesn't prove bribery. Further, it doesn't prove the parties are the same.

We haven't really had a truly Democratic (filibuster proof) Washington for so long that I think it's pretty hard to say with a certainty what they would have changed.

Vicente says

The more I think about it, the less I see this as orchestrated "conspiracy".

It's more of a groupthink. Look, everyone who speaks publicly whether "media" or whatever is heavily molded themselves by corporate influence. They don't see it as a bad thing since they are going to lunch regularly with corporate bigwigs. Therefore they just NATURALLY see someone who wants to take an axe to the FIRE cartel as some kind of loon. He is a threat to their established order.

Yeah, it's simply group self-interest (or group laziness).

Reporters today are less funded and lazier (or maybe the former made them into the latter). They get a gov't or corporate press release, call up a source or think tank for commentary, and write up the story. They don't "Dig" and they don't elaborate (which is confused with "impartiality" - ie "Many think 2+2=4; however, S&P and others disagree").

tatupu70 says

But the simple act of taking a campaign contribution doesn't prove bribery. Further, it doesn't prove the parties are the same.

No, but their voting record relative to their campaign contributions does demonstrate their propensity to favor those who gave them their funny money.

terriDeaner says

tatupu70 says

But the simple act of taking a campaign contribution doesn't prove bribery. Further, it doesn't prove the parties are the same.

No, but their voting record relative to their campaign contributions does demonstrate their propensity to favor those who gave them their funny money.

Sure--that's almost certainly true. Money talks--no doubt about it.

But that influence only works so far--it's much easier to buy a vote on a small bill that nobody really follows. So, if you looked at every bill voted on over the last 5 years, I guarantee you'd find some very obvious difference between those with a D after their name and those with an R.

thunderlips11 says

However, third way triangulation democrats become center-right when in office, and those are the ones who tend to win, however hopey-changey their rhetoric is.

But Democrats ARE center-right. See Political Compass. We don't have a true left party here besides maybe the Greens who don't poll well, as I pointed out earlier. I don't think Ron Paul is the right candidate for that, but that's a valid point that I made too.

I also don't see this happening from the top down. What would be better is if a third party started getting Congressional seats in states with open primaries. You are not going to create a viable third way with a presidential election.

thunderlips11 says

Which won't happen because elections are subject to state rules, and 100% of the states are controlled by Republicans and Democrats. A monopolist will never voluntarily give up a monopoly, so they go as far as the Supreme Court will let them in setting up ballot access blocks.

California recently had a ballot proposition to open up primaries, and the top 2 candidates go on to the general. Would you suggest something like this more broadly?

CL says

You can't win if people think that you really would outlaw abortion, can you?

I don't want to dwell on this question because it's a silly wedge issue, but pro-choice and pro-life don't mean what they used to mean any more. There are people who are nominally "pro-choice" who think there should be significant restrictions on abortions, and there are people who are nominally "pro-life" who think abortions should not be outlawed entirely.

People focus on the extremes, but if you read the poll data carefully, people don't always label themselves the way you'd think. It's mostly politicians and lobbyists who live at the extremes, not the general population. The vast majority of people believe that abortions should not be completely outlawed, but the line gets drawn different places by different people.

thunderlips11 says

Reporters today are less funded and lazier (or maybe the former made them into the latter). They get a gov't or corporate press release, call up a source or think tank for commentary, and write up the story. They don't "Dig" and they don't elaborate (which is confused with "impartiality" - ie "Many think 2+2=4; however, S&P and others disagree").

Yes, our current "journalists" do suck. This is a huge problem. Our journalists think impartiality means no analysis, when in reality that just means that journalists are an echo chamber for stupid politicians. That's why Jon Stewart is one of the few true journalists out there despite being a comedian.

The problem is not "liberal media" either. The problem is the *corporate* media, and the fact that true journalism standards don't exist any more. The media is more interested in dividing people than telling the truth because it makes a sexier story.

corntrollio says

But Democrats ARE center-right. See Political Compass. We don't have a true left party here besides maybe the Greens who don't poll well, as I pointed out earlier. I don't think Ron Paul is the right candidate for that, but that's a valid point that I made too.

I also don't see this happening from the top down. What would be better is if a third party started getting Congressional seats in states with open primaries. You are not going to create a viable third way with a presidential election.

I agree, the Democrats are now a center-right party.

I also agree about Congressional seats, but that won't happen for two reasons: First, the antiquated assignment of Representatives to Districts (no longer necessary thanks to the telegraph, much less the telephone and digitalization) makes them prone to co-option by powerful constituencies in their district - and not necessarily their own voters. Feinstein (CA - major intel/defense state), Frank (Upper Class Boston suburbs like Brookline - FIRE back offices), and Dodd (CT, same situation as Frank) are great examples. Second, if just getting one officer on the ballot for president is a manpower and financial hardship for third parties, getting multiple candidates in several districts is even harder - the rules are often just as stringent for House and Senate seats as they are for non-major party Presidential candidates.

corntrollio says

I also don't see this happening from the top down. What would be better is if a third party started getting Congressional seats in states with open primaries. You are not going to create a viable third way with a presidential election.

It sounds good to me. I actually would love the SCOTUS to rule that all ballot access laws should be the same for any candidate, regardless of Party - or lack of party - affiliation.

Given the way the US is structured today, politicians and corporations must re-learn to fear the public, or the public must lose their apathy on a grand scale.