patrick.net

Kansas City
www.youtube.com/embed/wIan2Zpg4YI

Giants

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3V78o8gW0

Ravens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICqTZeiimpk

Steelers Again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFq_hnJb7yg

Yet More Steelers Fan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULJ4quHQxG4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFXhRZkoORw

Tons more shit like this. I didn't even get into a tiny portion of these.

Goodell must have cranial damage, who did he think the Football watching base was? Postmodernist Critical Literature Professors? Managers of Girls2Code? The Leaders of the Hotep Black Pharaoh Alliance? Kotaku Writers?

www.youtube.com/embed/QFXhRZkoORw

Any NFL fan who stops watching games over Trump's diatribe is a bonafide cuck.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

People are pissed the fuck off.

Idiots are pissed the fuck off. The only people pissed off at the athlete kneeling are those who expect everyone to be a brainwashed slave to the tribe. There is no legitimate reason to be at all upset over people kneeling or even staying away during the national anthem.

Furthermore, regarding the impecile in the video, a country does not stand for anything. Countries aren't symbols. They are legal entities with sovereignty. The degree to which a country is good or evil is determined solely by the actions of those in that country, particularly those in power, and has nothing to do with whether or not you are born into that country or whatever symbols are important to you.

The assholes condemning the athletes are purely engaging in identity politics. This whole situation proves that the conservative right, which is all who are bitching and moaning about the athletes, is every bit into identity politics as the conservative left. All these social justice warriors on the right are triggered by the athletes kneeling. Well guess what SJWs, you are entitled to NOTHING. You are not entitled to your athletes standing during the anthem. You are not entitled to them being silent about injustices in your presence. You are not entitled to be shielded from the harsh realities of injustices in America. You do not get to coward in a safe space.

Kneegate has proved that the social justice warriors on the right are every bit as much special snowflakes as those on the left. They engage in identity politics and virtue signal virtues they don't actually possess using fake outrage. The left and the right are identical.

+1

Those offended are nothing more than SJWs whose cause is fake patriotism.

Dan8267 says

Idiots are pissed the fuck off. The only people pissed off at the athlete kneeling are those who expect everyone to be a brainwashed slave to the tribe. There is no legitimate reason to be at all upset over people kneeling or even staying away during the national anthem.

People are pissed because multimillionaires are claiming victim status. The employers of these Multimillionaires, who are notorious subsidy sponges, will fine employees over 9/11 Remembrance Cleats or dancing too long in the Endzone or Flipping Birds or saying "Damn", but refuse to do anything about the extremely controversial Anthem stance, creating a double standard of when "Free Expression" is allowed by the NFL.

Those are all legit causes.

Another one is that the NFL is trying to say that taking the knee during the anthem is some kind of celebration of Unity, which insults the intelligence of even stupid people for it's sheer dubiousness.

Also, if protesting the anthem is okay, then protesting the protesters of the anthem is okay.

The Flag and Anthem are a symbol of Unity, and protesting them is a sign of divisiveness. The American Anthem is to some, a symbol of unity and a continuing march towards decency with many successes in purging inequalities that have been with humans since he first chipped some stones to make an ax-head.

Finally, it's shocking to think a bunch of Billionaires will insult their largest segment of their current customer base in hopes of a future one that will never materialize (very few Low T Male Millennial Feminists are going to start watching Football) and expect them to take it. Such hubris cries out for punishment.

As for cuckery, I'm off to the Weiner thread.

www.youtube.com/embed/hp88VHFtFc8

The dumb fucks that drink the shit beer and buy the jerseys and swag, have nothing better to do. So they will be right back on Sunday, watching football. Guaranteed

TwoScoopsMcGee says

People are pissed because multimillionaires are claiming victim status.

I don't see that. However, it is irrelevant anyway. The message that society should not tolerate the injustice of courts turning a blind eye when criminal cops murder people is a valid message and an important one. Do you deny the validity of that message?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The Flag and Anthem are a symbol of Unity, and protesting them is a sign of divisiveness.

Not to most people. Certainly not to the descendants of slaves who are still murdered by the state for no legitimate or even legal reason. I don't care how much some Americans want the American flag to be a symbol of freedom. They don't get that because our history has been anything but a bastion of freedom. If you want America to symbolize freedom then our country must first embrace liberty and civil rights for a long time and not commit any atrocities. We're a long way from having that kind of track record. You don't get to have the reputation of a good guy if your actions don't match. America has yet to live up to the ideas it claims to have. Actions first, then we get to claim the moral high ground. If anything, these athletes taking a knee are bringing America closer to being worthy of being considered a symbol of freedom. Seeing them do this makes me more proud of America than the flag ever has.

In any case, murdering people is far more divisive than silently protesting an injustice by kneeling during the national anthem. Hell, even burning the American flag is way the fuck less divisive than blowing the brains out of a nine-year-old girl. You cannot even compare the two.

If you want divisiveness to end, the only way to accomplish that is to prosecute criminal cops to the fullest extent of the law. Do that and all this divisiveness will end. Demonizing the people brave enough to risk their celebrity and wealth on bringing awareness to a great injustice will only increase divisiveness. All those people demonizing these athletes are the ones really causing divisiveness. Those people should unite in solidarity with the athletes oppose criminal cops and the courts condonation of these criminal acts, which are the modern equivalence of lynching.

Dan8267 says

Not to most people

Not to some people, and certainly not most football fans.

Dan8267 says

In any case, murdering people is far more divisive than silently protesting an injustice by kneeling during the national anthem. Hell, even burning the American flag is way the fuck less divisive than blowing the brains out of a nine-year-old girl. You cannot even compare the two.

How about all the wife beating, Drunk Driving (which frequently kills people and entire families), etc.? Many members of the National Felons League doesn't care about that crap. Until recently, you were lucky to be suspended for a game or two for beating your mother, children, wife.

Listening to WFAN right now.

"I dunno what the hell I'm supposed to do, Mike. I got season tickets to the Giants. I didn't pay for this shit. I'm mad" - Fast, High Pitched Whiney NY Jew Accent (think Gilbert Godfreid). Not good.

Dan8267 says

. I don't care how much some Americans want the American flag to be a symbol of freedom. They don't get that because our history has been anything but a bastion of freedom.

It's a steady march to better and better Freedom. Slavery has been around since the dawn of agriculture. Western Civilization was the first to ban it outright, and the US was among the first wave of Slave Banners. We fought a war over it (not the tariff or other Confederate Apologetics nonsense). How many White Americans died over Slavery?

If Black Americans were their own country, they would be in the top 20 wealthiest nations in the world.

Cops are nothing compared to Black on Black Crime. Many of the shootings are Black Cops. We've given in to requests for a long time. "Oh, the problem is there aren't enough Black Cops from nearby." And when there is, you get "Yo Black Cop, you actin' all White and Shit for arresting me and my boys."

Cops kill more Whites than Blacks, and proportionally to crime numbers, shootings of Blacks by cops is not exceptional. The fugitive doesn't always surrender.

Dan8267 says

America has yet to live up to the ideas it claims to have. Actions first, then we get to claim the moral high ground. If anything, these athletes taking a knee are bringing America closer to being worthy of being considered a symbol of freedom. Seeing them do this makes me more proud of America than the flag ever has.

To me, it's all about wealthy billionaires, athletic millionaires, and the NFL enforcing the rules and often going too far to avoid the least controversy by banning Breast Cancer eye black, but kneeling is fine and dandy.

Most of these athletes have had white people covering their asses since day one. How many times has the Coach got the cops to drop the charges against the National Felon League players for stealing laptops and cell phones, assaulting people after bar closings, etc. etc. Not just the black ones.

Louisiana Saints get $150M from the state, plus Rent free use of a stadium, PLUS naming rights, PLUS Tax-free concession, broadcast, etc. profits. Sales Tax Free!

The American way is that the NFL can allow the Players to demonstrate re: Flag and Anthem, while fining them for 9/11 Remembrance Gear.

But the Taxpayers and Customers are certainly free to boycott and eliminate subsidies in return.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Not to some people, and certainly not most football fans.

And therein lies my point. Some people consider the ISIS flag to be the symbol of all that is good and holy. Just because someone has a strong emotional attachment to a symbol, does not mean that symbol is universally accepted as what that person believes it symbolizes. It is perfectly valid for other people to not associate that symbol with good things and even associate it with evil things. The advocate of the symbol is not objectively right, especially if it's the flag of a country that has
- practice slavery
- practice segregation
- murdered its own citizens for political reasons
- committed dozens of genocides
- slaughtered civilians and non-combatants in war
- tortured
- raped civilians in times of war
- has the greatest number of political prisoners, even in per-capita terms, then any other country in history

All of the above applies to America, so my point stands that America does not serve as a symbol of liberty and justice for all. It never has, and until the reforms the NFL players are advocating are passed, it never will be. America could become a true land of liberty and justice, but only if the grievances of black lives matter, take a knee, and other groups are addressed and fixed.

Only when America behaves in an honor way will it merit the pride you and I both want to feel in it. My entire life I've been constantly disappointed and shamed by the actions of our government and countrymen. No honorable person would be proud of American history. I'm hoping I'll be proud of America's future. That's why I support the NFL players. I want America to be what the flag wavers pretend it is, but I will not wallow in delusion because doing so prevents real action that is necessary to make America great for the first time. Trump's logo should have been Make America Great for Once because our past has not been great and lying about that only ensures our future won't be great, and there's nothing patriotic about sabotaging your country's future.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

How about all the wife beating, Drunk Driving (which frequently kills people and entire families), etc.?

What about it? I don't see how the existence of those crimes justify not prosecuting criminal cops who murder especially when all those crimes are prosecuted severely.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Many members of the National Felons League doesn't care about that crap. Until recently, you were lucky to be suspended for a game or two for beating your mother, children, wife.

Were the players taking a knee guilty of those crimes? If so, sure you can call hypocrisy if they are not rehabilitated. But if not, then it's a straw man argument. I suspect that most, if not all, of the NFL players taking a knee never put a hand on their mothers, wives, or children.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

It's a steady march to better and better Freedom.

There's nothing steady about the march. It's a constant struggle. However, America has been becoming better. That is why I'm optimistic about it's future. However, it is a lie to say that America has ever been an example of a free and just society. Other western nations have us beat by far. That's shameful. We should be the freest nation in the world and we're not even close. Sweden and Denmark kick our ass.

In any case, only when we are a bastion of liberty will we be able to honestly say our flag is a symbol of freedom.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Cops are nothing compared to Black on Black Crime.

Again, you are missing the point. The outrage isn't that cops are murdering innocent blacks, although that alone would be legitimate cause for outrage since cops are given the power of the state. A truer analogy would be if there were outrage over whites civilians killing black civilians but not over black civilians killing each other. Then you would have a very valid point, but that is not the case.

No. The true outrage is over the fact that criminal cops are not prosecuted for their crimes and they are allowed to continue to terrorize the community decade after decade, generation after generation. The police have become terrorists in the most literal sense of the word. That is ample justification for outrage. The very people the population depends on for protection are the ones endangering the population.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Cops kill more Whites than Blacks, and proportionally to crime numbers, shootings of Blacks by cops is not exceptional.

How does that in any way justify not prosecuting cops who murder innocent people? What's the connection? Why would that mean people should not be outraged at murderers getting paid vacation instead of criminal charges?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

To me, it's all about wealthy billionaires, athletic millionaires

TwoScoopsMcGee says

How many times has the Coach got the cops to drop the charges against the National Felon League players for stealing laptops and cell phones, assaulting people after bar closings, etc. etc. Not just the black ones.

Again, what does any of that have to do with the validity of bringing to the public's attention the fact that the police are literally getting away with murder and terrorizing one in eight Americans? Even if every NFL star taking a knee was a violent criminal -- and I have no reason to believe any of them are -- how would that invalidate the need for the public to be aware of the atrocities committed by the police and the failure of the court systems to serve justice? It's like saying that because some Jews were rapists, all the Jews deserved the Holocaust. It's a non-Sequitur.

Dan8267 says

And therein lies my point. Some people consider the ISIS flag to be the symbol of all that is good and holy. Just because someone has a strong emotional attachment to a symbol, does not mean that symbol is universally accepted as what that person believes it symbolizes. It is perfectly valid for other people to not associate that symbol with good things and even associate it with evil things. The advocate of the symbol is not objectively right, especially if it's the flag of a country that has

It means what the majority, and particularly the majority of Football Fans who are overwhelmingly White and working and middle class, think it means.

What the minority of radicals think isn't important. The majority can ignore their insistence on focusing only on the negative, their ignorance of history (slavery being the norm for almost all history and the first ban against it by Europeans in the 19th Century)

Any symbol has contesting meanings. To me, the Star Wars trilogy is a symbol of being an over-the-hill doofus who won't delegate authority and can't write dialogue.

Dan8267 says

Only when America behaves in an honor way will it merit the pride you and I both want to feel in it. My entire life I've been constantly disappointed and shamed by the actions of our government and countrymen. No honorable person would be proud of American history. I'm hoping I'll be proud of America's future. That's why I support the NFL players.

In the vast, vast majority of police encounters, Blacks don't die. They do, fact, commit disproportionate crimes. Not surprising because they worship Gangsters and Felons in their Music and Film. But this is ancillary.

Yep, the US has done some bad things, but it's broken ground on new things. On Speech, Education, Slavery, Gay Rights (Gay marriage is still banned in most of the world inc. in Europe, Homosexuality is still on many country's books) America led the way or is leading the way.

I'm not letting a Minority dictate to me what the Flag means. They will have to suck it up until convince enough people to become the majority. And then the country will fall apart due to lack of unity and the Oppression Olympics if they succeed.



Dan8267 says

No. The true outrage is over the fact that criminal cops are not prosecuted for their crimes and they are allowed to continue to terrorize the community decade after decade, generation after generation. The police have become terrorists in the most literal sense of the word. That is ample justification for outrage. The very people the population depends on for protection are the ones endangering the population.

The solution to that is a permanent independent prosecutor whose only responsibility is to charge cops. Can't have it be the AG because he often depends or depended on Cop Support for appointment or election.

Protesting at a football game just says "FUCK AMERICA! ULULULULULULU!" It's not effective communication. Nor is the Media Punditry and the Blue Loyalist Sock Puppets run by Media Matters communicating the message YOU want to send, but rather that it's some kind of popular revolt against Donald Trump by Football Players.

There's also a perception problem, when a cop kills a fleeing White or Hispanic criminal, there's little coverage. When it's black, the media descends upon it. And the cop is always assumed to be White, even when Black. The Radicals say the Black Cops have been transformed by "Whiteness" and participating in a White Society; they have an answer for everything, so long as it blames Whites, because they are racist and seek to break down America and replace it with an Oligarchy of Lesbian Communist Chairpeople

Dan8267 says

Again, what does any of that have to do with the validity of bringing to the public's attention the fact that the police are literally getting away with murder and terrorizing one in eight Americans? Even if every NFL star taking a knee was a violent criminal -- and I have no reason to believe any of them are -- how would that invalidate the need for the public to be aware of the atrocities committed by the police and the failure of the court systems to serve justice? It's like saying that because some Jews were rapists, all the Jews deserved the Holocaust. It's a non-Sequitur.

We're watching multimillionaires discuss oppression.

If you want to talk about getting away with stuff, the crime rate in the National Felons League is sky high. Especially Domestic Violence, operating a multiton deadly weapon while intoxicated (aka DWI), etc. The NFL rehired Michael Vick, a man who tortured animals for profit. Aaron Hernandez killed somebody. Darrell Russel was a rapist. That's just the tip of the iceburg. The Felons League commits very disproportionate crime, so of course they don't like the cops that lock them and their teammates up.





As anybody who is honest will admit, football players often completely dodge any legal system or academic process when they regularly commit crimes and misdeeds that would get any other student suspended or incarcerated with ease. They also get papers written for them and have no attendance classes they pass regularly. The people protesting are some of the most entitled individuals ever, overlaid with substantial brain damage to boot. EVEN THEN, these Thugs don't think they're getting their fair due. And, of course, Thugs don't like Cops.

Football Players often don't like cops because when they get arrested far from their home town or college town, they aren't recognized and not "given the respect" they feel entitled to. They might actually be handcuffed after choking a lady and taking her purse. It's a while before one mayor can call the other mayor, or the Coach offer some tickets and some veiled threats about officials friendly to the "Sports Program".

"I hate Cops, yo!"

"Dey So Brutal, tho'"

www.youtube.com/embed/Dp47DeNAukw

ex-NFL Ray Rice beats his wife in a hotel elevator.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3887608/One-two-bad-decisions-dream-nightmare-Ray-Rice-reveals-knew-life-hit-wife-elevator-Atlantic-City-hotel-insists-not-person-am.html
"We's never did nuttin wrong."
Rare example of College Football Players being charged.
http://www.ocala.com/news/20170925/uf-files-criminal-complaints-against-nine-football-players

Compare the rates of Football Players' criminal acts, to that of Hockey Players, Baseball Players, etc.

It's no wonder they're protesting the cops who try to punish them, when they think, because of all the smoke blown up their ass their entire lives, they're entitled to get away with it.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

We're watching multimillionaires discuss oppression.

Why do some people think you have to be poor to fight against poverty? Or you have to be a minority to fight for minority rights?

How stupid a viewpoint is that??

Why does it matter how much money one makes? The cause is the cause regardless of the income of the one pushing it.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Compare the rates of Football Players' criminal acts, to that of Hockey Players, Baseball Players, etc.

It's no wonder they're protesting the cops who try to punish them, when they think, because of all the smoke blown up their ass their entire lives, they're entitled to get away with it.

And McGee again avoids the actual subject and tries to distract by attacking the character of random football players.

When you fear the message, and cannot refute it with a counter, attack the messenger

Even if every NFL star taking a knee was a violent criminal -- and I have no reason to believe any of them are

@Dan, you are speaking from a position of ignorance

Ray Lewis bent the knee: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/remembering-the-ray-lewis-controversy/
Darren Sharper the serial rapist: https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/04/07/darren-sharper-police-failure-stop-rape-spree
Leonard Littles 2nd DUI where he murders a woman who happened to be the wife of one of his teams photographers, netted him an 8 game suspension: https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/archives/sports/hard-ram-star-latest-dui-victim-family-bewildered-article-1.581397

Rae Carruth was eligible for the death penalty after brutally murdering his pregnant wife:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/sports/football/zone-carruth-consequences-article-1.1576536
Aaron Hernandez?: double murder

These are just a few off the top of my head.

joeyjojojunior says

And McGee again avoids the actual subject and tries to distract by attacking the character of random football players.

Nope. Totally Relevant. I addressed both "it's what the symbol means to the customers and the majority generally" angle AND the "Why do Football Players hate cops."

To summarize:

We shouldn't be surprised that Criminals, and those associated with criminals, hate cops.

National Felon League has far disproportionate felons among their members than the general working population.

Then add all the smoke blown up their ass, all the coverups done on their behalf by authority figures, the Social Justice Indoctrination in college and their advantageous minority status as both Black and Elite Athletes, and the multimillion dollar salaries, and they've got a toxic mix of self-righteousness and contempt.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Chairpeople

I remember when feminism became popular in the early 70's, my aunt who taught school in Austin for many years said "I'll be happy to be a chairman, but don't ask me to be a chairwoman or a chairperson". She also told about the time she took a young black boy by the ear, marched him down to the principal's office and said "Mr. Griffin, you take this SOB out of my classroom, I'm not going to have some black bastard calling me a liar!"

TwoScoopsMcGee says

It means what the majority, and particularly the majority of Football Fans who are overwhelmingly White and working and middle class, think it means.

Not it does not. If popularity determined the meaning of a symbol and all others were forced to accept it, than the ISIS flag would be the symbol of the one true god. There are more devoted Muslims who believe that then there are non-Muslims who would even recognize the ISIS flag.

No person has the right or the power to force the meaning of a symbol onto another person. Nor does any person have the right to force others to respect and admire the symbols he likes.

People should be far more concerned about principles than symbols. There is no principle being opposed by the NFL players kneeling. There are many principles being opposed by condemning those players including the principles of
1. Free speech.
2. Empathy
3. Liberty
4. Freedom of thought
5. Individualism
6. Justice for all
7. Honest court systems
8. Public awareness of serious problems
9. Democracy, which is undermined by ignorance
10. Real patriotism, which is love of countrymen, not love of flag
11. Equality under law
12. The pursuit of happiness
13. The opposition to terrorism
14. Human and civil rights
15. Honorable conduct

I could probably go on and on, but that's sufficient.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

What the minority of radicals think isn't important.

1. The majority of football fans isn't the majority of the population.
2. Majority rule does not make right. The truth isn't a popularity contest.
3. Calling someone a radical doesn't make them one. I could just as easily assert that anyone condemning these players is a radical. After all, they are condemning freedom of speech and that's a damn radical and dangerous idea.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The majority can ignore their insistence on focusing only on the negative

One solves problems. You don't fix things that are working.

Tell me, do you object to people being aware of Islamic terrorism because such awareness "focuses only one the negative" of Islam. That sounds exactly like the conservative left. Every time there is a Islamic terrorist attack, the left condemns anyone who says there is a problem with Islam. Now replace Islam with "police". It's the same damn thing. Every time there is a police terrorist attack, the right condemns anyone who says there is a problem with the police. Terrorism is terrorism, not matter who the perpetrators are.

Your objection to vocalization of the problems with the police is no different than the left's objections to the vocalization of the problems with Islam.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

their ignorance of history (slavery being the norm for almost all history and the first ban against it by Europeans in the 19th Century)

The commonality of a crime does not make the crime any less serious. Are you suggesting that we should not attempt to stop crimes that are common simply because they are common? Are you suggesting we should not condemn criminals if their crimes are common? Terrorism is common in Middle East Islamic culture. Does that mean it is wrong to morally condemn terrorists? Use your principles consistently or abandon them. Inconsistently applied principles are just plain wrong.


TwoScoopsMcGee says

In the vast, vast majority of police encounters, Blacks don't die.

In the vast majority of police encounters, cops don't die. Does that mean we should not condemn cop killers? Again, apply your principles consistently.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

They do, fact, commit disproportionate crimes. Not surprising because they worship Gangsters and Felons in their Music and Film. But this is ancillary.

Not only is it ancillary, it's irrelevant. The vast majority of rapist are men. Men rape far more disproportionately than do blacks disproportionately commit violent crimes. By your logic, the feminazis are right to say men are scum because of this. Once again, apply your principles consistently. You know the feminazis are wrong in their logic. You are wrong in yours as well because it's the exact same logic.

Furthermore, blacks do NOT disproportionately commit more crimes. Over 99.99999% of crimes are committed by whites. Surprising? Perhaps, but most truths are. Blacks disproportionately commit violent crimes like murder, rape, and burglary. However, the typical murderer commits only one murder before being caught and thrown in prison. Almost 100% of crimes by sheer numbers are financial crimes automated with computers. It literally takes less than a nano-second to commit a crime with a computer, and with parallelism billions of crimes can be committed every second with computers. And since they are not prosecuted, they go on unabated.

If you were to actually count crimes and plot them on a pie chart, the entire pie chart would be filled with automated financial crimes. This is a cold hard fact. And those automated crimes are committed by overwhelmingly white, male financial professionals. So your statement "blacks disproportionately commit crimes" is simply wrong, factually wrong. Care must be taken in statements to get them right. There is no margin for error.

Finally, regardless of the problems with crime in black communities and the causes of those problems, it is morally wrong to object to people bringing awareness of the unprosecuted crimes of police including murder, rape, and terrorism. There is absolutely no excuse for our court system not to prosecute those criminals and to protect the innocents unfortunate enough to live in poor neighborhoods. There is no justification for demonizing those who publicly express concern for innocent members of the public, your fellow Americans. Expressing such concern is by far the most patriotic thing you can do.

The real patriot does not whitewash history or lie about the shameful atrocities of his country. The real patriot brings this shame to the public eye so that it can stop and the country can be made great. Real patriotism is love of your countrymen, not your country or flag. Those who wave the flag proudly while attacking their fellow Americans are Unamerican.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

I'm not letting a Minority dictate to me what the Flag means.

What you think the flag or the national anthem means is completely irrelevant to what the NFL player's protest means. The meaning of the flag may vary from person to person, but the meaning of a protest is completely and solely determine by the intent of the protestors! People have intentions. Flags do not. Flags are inanimate objects with no thoughts. People have thoughts, intentions, and will which determine the meaning of their protest.

It is hypocritical of you to complain that other people are imposing a different significance to the flag on you when you are imposing a difference significance of their protest!

Regardless of what you think the flag means, their protest means one and only one thing: protecting Americans from terrorists, rapists, and murderers. You don't get to impose any bad intentions on that.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Protesting at a football game just says "FUCK AMERICA! ULULULULULULU!" It's not effective communication.

Again, you don't get to impose that message on their protest any more than they get to impose that message on your flag waving or standing during the national anthem, and for the exact same reasons.

It seems your entire problem with the NFL players is your wilful misinterpretation of their message. You have not made a single objection to the actual message, only what you wrongfully perceive their message to be. So let me make this absolutely clear. The NFL player's message is "Cops need to stop committing murder, rape, and terrorism, and the courts need to prosecute cops who commit crimes.". This is the one and ONLY message the NFL players are sending. If you hear anything else, that's a problem with you listening to the message, not a problem with what they are saying.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

There's also a perception problem, when a cop kills a fleeing White or Hispanic criminal, there's little coverage. When it's black, the media descends upon it.

That is a problem with the media that does not, in any way, condemn the NFL player's protest or their message.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

If you want to talk about getting away with stuff, the crime rate in the National Felons League is sky high.

This is also irrelevant to the take a knee message. It would be irrelevant even if some of the protesters were guilty of such crimes. Is a murderer says that people should not be allowed to rape with impunity, he's not wrong about that. Discarding a correct message simply because you do not like the messenger is a fallacy. The messenger is irrelevant. Christ, I've must have said that sentence a thousand times on Patnet.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

As anybody who is honest will admit, football players often completely dodge any legal system or academic process when they regularly commit crimes and misdeeds that would get any other student suspended or incarcerated with ease.

All people with money and power do this. It is unethical and immoral, and more importantly, the fault of the system for allowing it. However, it is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Would you stop funding anti-terrorism efforts simply because an NFL player said we should fund anti-terrorism efforts? That would be silly. Sometimes people you don't like say things that you should agree with. You don't have to disagree with someone simply because you hate them. Even broken clocks are sometimes right. Even Fox News occasionally says the right thing. Even Donald Trump, if only by sheer dumb luck, does something right. Hell, even Bush and Cheney did the rare good thing.

It is not valid to reject a correct position simply because someone you hate adopted that position. It does not change the nature of the position itself. Rejecting a position simply because someone else adopts it is entirely irrational.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Football Players often don't like cops because when they get arrested far from their home town or college town, they aren't recognized and not "given the respect" they feel entitled to.

Irrelevant. The cops do NOT deserve respect because they protect criminal cops who assault, rape, murder, and terrorize community. Only when both these crimes stop and all other cops arrest criminal cops instead of preventing the public from stopping such crimes will the police merit respect.

Make no mistake. The police in every other western nation are highly respectable. America is the ONLY exception. America is the only western country where the police are out of control thugs and terrorists. It does not have to be this way, but the message being sent by the NFL players is absolutely critical in changing this.

People who hate the fact that America's history is shameful should use that discomfort to motivate themselves to change America so that it's future is not shameful. You only get to be proud of your country when your country merits pride. Your personal feelings are irrelevant. Make America into the country you want others to perceive it to be. Otherwise, you have nothing to be proud about.

You are not entitled to national pride. It must be earned. Pretending your nation is better than it is ultimately is no different than giving a trophy to anyone who participates. Sure it might make you feel good, but it means nothing. Honor must be earned, not imagined.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

"I hate Cops, yo!"

TwoScoopsMcGee says

ex-NFL Ray Rice beats his wife in a hotel elevator.

Both incidences and anything similar are also irrelevant. This is no different than saying because some men rape, the false accusations and harms flung at innocent men by feminazis are justified. Once more, your reasoning is identical to theirs, and you know they are wrong.

joeyjojojunior says

And McGee again avoids the actual subject and tries to distract by attacking the character of random football players.

Unfortunate, but in this case you are right. Every argument he has made has been a "poisoning the well" argument. Even worse, it's a guilt by association poisoning of the well. I'm hoping he will realize this and recant his objections. I have given very detailed and clear reasons why he should. Hopefully, rationality and reason will prevail.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

We shouldn't be surprised that Criminals, and those associated with criminals, hate cops.

Wow--so you're painting the entire NFL as criminals then? Awesome.

I guess all cops are criminals too then. Look at Drew Peterson. Or this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541473/Police-officer-shoots-dead-wife-children-mother-law-committing-suicide.html
Or many, many others.

joeyjojojunior says

TwoScoopsMcGee says

We shouldn't be surprised that Criminals, and those associated with criminals, hate cops.

Wow--so you're painting the entire NFL as criminals then? Awesome.

I guess all cops are criminals too then. Look at Drew Peterson. Or this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541473/Police-officer-shoots-dead-wife-children-mother-law-committing-suicide.html
Or many, many others.

You're not going to get an honest response about policemen crime stats, especially with the data being so muddled. But yea, there are tons of cops doing heinous things every day, and as a whole, a far greater negative impact to society than the NFL offenders

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

FortWayne says

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

Huh?

America was built by liberals and immigrants. You're just not smart enough to understand what this country is all about. So just sit there and be quiet

Dan8267 says

Finally, regardless of the problems with crime in black communities and the causes of those problems, it is morally wrong to object to people bringing awareness of the unprosecuted crimes of police including murder, rape, and terrorism.

While you said finally, it was not the end. But this line stuck out to me in your novel (I mean that in a good way if you care to believe that). It is morally wrong to bring "awareness" to any issue and to do jack shit about it. And this is what the problem is. Their kneeling, holding hands, singing jambalaya (spell check liked this word so I went with it - Kumbaya or however it's spelled) doesn't make a damn difference. Kaepernik sending $1M of his own money, where likely 80% was siphoned off to salaries of buddies and people that ultimately can give him his money back, is not doing anything. It's disingenuous at best and criminal at worst.

Most of these guys are greedy ass holes. Until there was some "awareness" brought to their attention, they didn't send a dime of their own money to any charity or "cause." And still probably don't send anything with all the attention. Most NFL players HAVE to be greedy because the average shelf life is 3 years and most of that pay is based off a rookie contract. So factor in most these guys weren't going to be generous anyway and then factor in the average shelf life of an NFL player and this whole thing is completely disingenuous. If someone is going to push an agenda with athletes, maybe you can do it with the NBA. But they're all fucking looking out for their own and trying to be the next MJ and save up to be a billionaire team owner.

And I'm sorry, it is morally wrong for most American's to completely ignore the social issues of the black community. Which is kind of what you do by focusing in on a minority of an even smaller group (cops) then blacks and their issues. Blacks are 13% of the population. Cops across this country are ~0.00309% https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2016/07/24/how-many-police-are-there-in-the-united-states/ We can fix the police brutality problem I believe. But we have to, pun intended, start looking at the 800lb gorilla in the room.

WookieMan says

Their kneeling, holding hands, singing jambalaya (spell check liked this word so I went with it - Kumbaya or however it's spelled) doesn't make a damn difference.

I'd say that Martin Luther King might disagree with you.

Cops across this country are ~0.00309%

Your math is brutal

Jambalaya is a stew

errc says

Even if every NFL star taking a knee was a violent criminal -- and I have no reason to believe any of them are

Last count it was 27% who were.

WookieMan says

the social issues of the black community

Which are probably 93.47% self-imposed.

joeyjojojunior says

I'd say that Martin Luther King might disagree with you.

(This is a rerun, but appropriate)

I'd think not. In the most racist era outside of the 19th century, 1900-1960, black families were stable with two parent families the norm, but they still lived under Jim Crow. MLK was a proponent of integration and assimilation into the broader society, "acting white" if you will, and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the result--of course it didn't instantly eradicate racism but it was a start. However, the societal meltdowns of the sexual revolution and drug cultures of the late 60's intervened. Young blacks under the influence of such characters as Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Huey Newton and the Black Panthers, who had Elaine Brown murder Betty Van Patter, who hated MLK and all he stood for, opted instead for the black thug, ghetto culture of drugs, out-of-wedlock births, sloth, victimology and general slovenliness that proved generational and which we see to this day. It's interesting but sad how the violence of exactly 50 years ago mirrors so perfectly that of today and from so many of the same sources. The identity politics, societal divisions and divisiveness we experience today had their beginnings in those riots and disruptions of 50 years ago despite what should have been great progress. Welfare spending exploded between 1970 and 1980, yet to what good effect?

Jim Crow 1956--how often is this seen in the black community today?

http://www.shorpy.com/node/13115?size=_original#caption

errc says

Your math is brutal

Listen, I never claimed to be thorough. Article has 765,246 cops. Just ran with it. The percentage does add up. Is it accurate? I have no fucking clue. Either way cops are not much of a percentage of the population. And yes, they do bad things. If more focus (not necessarily money) was spent on helping blacks, I think our country would overall be in a better place. That's all I'm getting at.
errc says

Jambalaya is a stew

I know. I generally suck at spelling. Firefox gave me the red line underneath and I went with the suggestion, Jambalaya. Was trying for kumbaya. Which Firefox still gives me the red line for. So kumbaya = jambalaya, you really can't argue that.

WookieMan says

jambalaya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHAsFVjrDyg

FortWayne says

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

Your statement has let America down. There's nothing more unpatriotic than not giving a shit about your fellow Americans being raped and murdered or attacking other Americans advocating for those victims.

The shame of police crimes is surpassed only by the shame you bring to America by condoning those crimes and condemning those who voice opposition to those crimes. You steal honor from America and demonstrate exactly why the American flag is not a symbol of liberty or justice.

P N Dr Lo R says

jambalaya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHAsFVjrDyg

Not good with movies to be honest, but that song would fit perfect in a Quentin Tarantino violence scene in a future move.

Dan8267 says

Not it does not. If popularity determined the meaning of a symbol and all others were forced to accept it, than the ISIS flag would be the symbol of the one true god. There are more devoted Muslims who believe that then there are non-Muslims who would even recognize the ISIS flag.

Sheesh Dan, it's a novel - not that that's a bad thing - so I'm going to take it piece by piece.

I think plenty of Shi'a Muslims hate ISIS, as do many Sunni Muslims since ISIS is opposed to a great deal of Islamic Traditions. In any case, I'm referring to what Americans think of the US Flag, and since pretty much only Americans and maybe a few Canadians make up Football spectators, that's what matters. Most American spectators look on the flag as a national symbol of unity, along with the anthem, and to kneel is a sign of disrespect. People who see the flag as an oppressive symbol of unrepentant nothing-but-evil are a minority.

Few outside North America really cares about football. However, I've talked to Center-Left Europeans recently, who can't believe that not standing for an anthem - not just their own - isn't an auto suspension or even a firing offense. Soccer players are required to stand and not make political gestures for any anthem, or they're totally gone, for several games, or even permanently.

The NFL Players don't know what the fuck they're on about because they stood for the British Anthem but sad for the American One. Apparently, Britain was never a colonialist power that engaged in slavery, slaughter, etc. Just the USA?

Dan8267 says

No person has the right or the power to force the meaning of a symbol onto another person. Nor does any person have the right to force others to respect and admire the symbols he likes.

Yes, I agree that the AltLeft will not force me to regard the US Flag and National Anthem as they do.

As for your list of points:
1. They certainly have freedom of speech. However, that is tempered by being on the clock and representing a brand on national television. The NFL also has to think about Speech that is being assigned to them via the players, and be prepared for my speech and others in return. Including the right to criticize and boycott speech we don't like.
2. Empathy. I'm biased against Football Bullies by nature. Too coddled by authority figures most of their lives.
3. Liberty. Nobody stopped the Football Players from expressing themselves, on or off the field. It's also liberty for them to receive feedback from their actions.
4. Freedom of Thought. As much as they can process with their CTE, they have Freedom of Thought.
5. Individualism. They're free to show their individualism, like Kaepernick did when his BLM anti-white fascist 6-figure earning girlfriend pressured him to speak out.
6. Justice for all. Compared to what? Compared to 3/4 of the countries in the world, the US Court System is pretty damn honest.
7. Honest Court Systems. Yep, would be nice. Start with totally free elections of judges, free from BAR control.
8. Public awareness. Many of those cheering on the Players also think Transgender Bathrooms is the most important Human Rights violation in the World today. While happily participating in Child Labor (Coffee, Chocolate Growing) or AltLeft Terrorism. Indeed, Antifa almost certainly backs the players, while attacking Free Speech in the Streets.
9. Democracy is also undermined by wealthy elites pushing their view of things through their extremely unequal control of media and entertainment.
10. Real Patriotism is love of country and people. I doubt these Players give two shits about this.
11. Equality under the law. Lacking more for billionaire crimes than for police, IMHO. Almost everything bad law enforcement does is due to political lobbying of the wealthy. For example, packing private prisons to max capacity. Writing tickets for 65 in a 55 for insurance companies excuse to raise rates.
12. The pursuit of happiness. To entertain yourself for a few hours without extremely controversial bullshit being rubbed in your face.
13. Opposition to Terrorism. Most Terror groups have political wings designed to indoctrinate and propagandize. The NFL Players are the political wing of AltLeft Terrorism.
14. Human and Civil Rights. Too broad to comment upon without specific examples.
15. Honorable. To WW2 and pre-WW2 Japanese, honorable meant never surrendering, but fighting unto death, so this is a relative term.

WookieMan says

While you said finally, it was not the end.

I meant that paragraph stated the final supporting point for that section of my response. The next paragraph was the conclusion for that section. It was not meant to indicate the final paragraph or the final section of my response.

WookieMan says

But this line stuck out to me in your novel (I mean that in a good way if you care to believe that)

Verboseness is not a measure of how long a message is, but rather how needlessly long it is. My responses may be long, but they are far more concise than just about anything you will ever read. The information density is large and I do not repeat myself. My posts are exactly how long they need to be to completely support the argument I am making. Detailed problems required detailed analysis.

It is a shame that most Americans have short attention spans. I think that problem has gotten worse with the rise of social media and online news, but it did not have to be that way. It's not a problem with technology, but rather how we choose to use technology.


WookieMan says

Most of these guys are greedy ass holes.

Even if the motivation of the players is self-serving, the message itself is correct. More importantly, the real reasons behind the opposition to their message has nothing to do with the NFL players, but rather the message itself. People would rather kill the messenger than acknowledge the truth of a message that exposes the shame of the tribe. People are too tribal. It's the human beings in the tribe that matter, not the tribal identity. This isn't the Stone Age. The Stone Age sucked. Let's stop living in it.

WookieMan says

And I'm sorry, it is morally wrong for most American's to completely ignore the social issues of the black community.

Since when are black community members ignoring the social issues of black communities. There are countless examples of community leaders, ministers, low-ranking politicians, charity workers, social workers, etc. vocally advocating for cultural changes, community watches, drug rehabilitation, education, and other means of fixing the various problems in poor black communities.

More importantly, acknowledging the truth that courts need to prosecute cops who murder, rape, and terrorize does not in any way hinder addressing other problems including problems caused by African Americans themselves. Making such an argument is as non-sequitur as stating that a rapist should not admit to his crimes because Congress can't balance the budget. The two are completely unrelated.

If anything, crime in poor black communities would be far less if the population could actually trust the police, which is impossible as long as criminal cops are left unprosecuted.

WookieMan says

Cops across this country are ~0.00309% https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2016/07/24/how-many-police-are-there-in-the-united-states/

0.34% according to the FBI. But in any case, this only goes to serve how pervasive corruption and criminal activity within police departments are. So much damage caused by so few individuals.

@pnldr—

Not sure what point you are trying to make, but whatever it is, it certainly doesn’t refute mine.

Peaceful protests are far from meaningless and worthless.