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errc says

Grains and carbs make people sick.

Your quote not mine.There is no ambiguity there. Millet is a grain, rice is a grain. Asians don't get all that sick. So my assumptions logical question still stands.

errc says

Just make sure they are zero'ing out their carbs

errc says

thats why people that understand how the body works look for NET carbs in foods.

Your quotes not mine.You just posted 2 pages that said carbs are all bad and must never be eaten. So now some carbs are ok as long as they "NET"? That's not zeroing out. Some consistency please.

My assertion stands, Eat variety, eat colors, avoid processed anything, eat fresh seasonal, exercise moderately, don't listen to the fanatics on either side.

carbs that come from vegetables packed with soluble fiber get you net carbs

5 g of carb
4 g of fiber
1 g net carbs

apologize if i am doing a poor job explaining. my entire life, i would have agreed with what you are saying and figured this information to be both wrong and crazy. i am not a doctor or nutritionist, but i do believe those that agree with the carbs-cause insulin resistance=most all the disease of affluence that plagues western diet consumers

the earlier link from the surgeon,,,,,,,,,,

We physicians with all our training, knowledge and authority often acquire a rather large ego that tends to make it difficult to admit we are wrong. So, here it is. I freely admit to being wrong.. As a heart surgeon with 25 years experience, having performed over 5,000 open-heart surgeries,today is my day to right the wrong with medical and scientific fact.

I trained for many years with other prominent physicians labelled “opinion makers.” Bombarded with scientific literature, continually attending education seminars, we opinion makers insisted heart disease resulted from the simple fact of elevated blood cholesterol.

The only accepted therapy was prescribing medications to lower cholesterol and a diet that severely restricted fat intake. The latter of course we insisted would lower cholesterol and heart disease. Deviations from these recommendations were considered heresy and could quite possibly result in malpractice.

These recommendations are no longer scientifically or morally defensible. The discovery a few years ago that inflammation in the artery wall is the real cause of heart disease is slowly leading to a paradigm shift in how heart disease and other chronic ailments will be treated.

The long-established dietary recommendations have created epidemics of obesity and diabetes, the consequences of which dwarf any historical plague in terms of mortality, human suffering and dire economic consequences.

Despite the fact that 25% of the population takes expensive statin medications and despite the fact we have reduced the fat content of our diets, more Americans will die this year of heart disease than ever before.

Statistics from the American Heart Association show that 75 million Americans currently suffer from heart disease, 20 million have diabetes and 57 million have pre-diabetes. These disorders are affecting younger and younger people in greater numbers every year.

Simply stated, without inflammation being present in the body, there is no way that cholesterol would accumulate in the wall of the blood vessel and cause heart disease and strokes. Without inflammation, cholesterol would move freely throughout the body as nature intended. It is inflammation that causes cholesterol to become trapped.

Inflammation is not complicated -- it is quite simply your body's natural defence to a foreign invader such as a bacteria, toxin or virus. The cycle of inflammation is perfect in how it protects your body from these bacterial and viral invaders. However, if we chronically expose the body to injury by toxins or foods the human body was never designed to process,a condition occurs called chronic inflammation. Chronic inflammation is just as harmful as acute inflammation is beneficial.

What thoughtful person would willfully expose himself repeatedly to foods or other substances that are known to cause injury to the body? Well,smokers perhaps, but at least they made that choice willfully.

The rest of us have simply followed the recommended mainstream dietthat is low in fat and high in polyunsaturated fats and carbohydrates, not knowing we were causing repeated injury to our blood vessels. Thisrepeated injury creates chronic inflammation leading to heart disease, stroke, diabetes and obesity.

Let me repeat that: The injury and inflammation in our blood vessels is caused by the low fat diet recommended for years by mainstream medicine.

What are the biggest culprits of chronic inflammation? Quite simply, they are the overload of simple, highly processed carbohydrates (sugar, flour and all the products made from them) and the excess consumption of omega-6 vegetable oils like soybean, corn and sunflower that are found in many processed foods.

Take a moment to visualize rubbing a stiff brush repeatedly over soft skin until it becomes quite red and nearly bleeding. you kept this up several times a day, every day for five years. If you could tolerate this painful brushing, you would have a bleeding, swollen infected area that became worse with each repeated injury. This is a good way to visualize the inflammatory process that could be going on in your body right now.

Regardless of where the inflammatory process occurs, externally or internally, it is the same. I have peered inside thousands upon thousands of arteries. A diseased artery looks as if someone took a brush and scrubbed repeatedly against its wall. Several times a day, every day, the foods we eat create small injuries compounding into more injuries, causing the body to respond continuously and appropriately with inflammation.

While we savor the tantalizing taste of a sweet roll, our bodies respond alarmingly as if a foreign invader arrived declaring war. Foods loaded with sugars and simple carbohydrates, or processed withomega-6 oils for long shelf life have been the mainstay of the American diet for six decades. These foods have been slowly poisoning everyone.

How does eating a simple sweet roll create a cascade of inflammation to make you sick?

Imagine spilling syrup on your keyboard and you have a visual of what occurs inside the cell. When we consume simple carbohydrates such as sugar, blood sugar rises rapidly. In response, your pancreas secretes insulin whose primary purpose is to drive sugar into each cell where it is stored for energy. If the cell is full and does not need glucose, it is rejected to avoid extra sugar gumming up the works.

When your full cells reject the extra glucose, blood sugar rises producing more insulin and the glucose converts to stored fat.

What does all this have to do with inflammation? Blood sugar is controlled in a very narrow range. Extra sugar molecules attach to a variety of proteins that in turn injure the blood vessel wall. This repeated injury to the blood vessel wall sets off inflammation. When you spike your blood sugar level several times a day, every day, it is exactly like taking sandpaper to the inside of your delicate blood vessels.

While you may not be able to see it, rest assured it is there. I saw it in over 5,000 surgical patients spanning 25 years who all shared one common denominator -- inflammation in their arteries.

Let’s get back to the sweet roll. That innocent looking goody not only contains sugars, it is baked in one of many omega-6 oils such as soybean. Chips and fries are soaked in soybean oil; processed foods are manufactured with omega-6 oils for longer shelf life. While omega-6’s are essential -they are part of every cell membrane controlling what goes in and out of the cell -- they must be in the correct balance with omega-3’s.

If the balance shifts by consuming excessive omega-6, the cell membrane produces chemicals called cytokines that directly cause inflammation.

Today’s mainstream American diet has produced an extreme imbalance of these two fats. The ratio of imbalance ranges from 15:1 to as high as 30:1 in favor of omega-6. That’s a tremendous amount of cytokines causing inflammation. In today’s food environment, a 3:1 ratio would be optimal and healthy.

To make matters worse, the excess weight you are carrying from eating these foods creates overloaded fat cells that pour out large quantities of pro-inflammatory chemicals that add to the injury caused by having high blood sugar. The process that began with a sweet roll turns into a vicious cycle over time that creates heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes and finally, Alzheimer’s disease, as the inflammatory process continues unabated.

There is no escaping the fact that the more we consume prepared and processed foods, the more we trip the inflammation switch little by little each day. The human body cannot process, nor was it designed to consume, foods packed with sugars and soaked in omega-6 oils.

There is but one answer to quieting inflammation, and that is returning to foods closer to their natural state. To build muscle, eat more protein. Choose carbohydrates that are very complex such as colorful fruits and vegetables. Cut down on or eliminate inflammation- causing omega-6 fats like corn and soybean oil and the processed foods that are made from them.

errc I do appreciate this conversation and it is making me take a look at what I have been eating (I *ahem* admittedly have been doing some backsliding into junk food as of late).

errc says

First, millet has been more a staple to the asian diet than rice over the course of modern history. Millet glycemic index is 25 while rice is 65. However, rice is still much less unhealthy then wheat for the sake of comparing the asian diet to the western diet. western diet is based on wheat which brings in gluten, which white rice doesn't have. Asians also eat plenty of seafood, vegetables, and fatty oils. Not to mention, asians are inherently more insulin sensitive because they move around more then western dieters, even if it's just walking

This is still not a convincing argument that the conclusion is:

errc says

carbs make you sick

And that a carb eliminating Ketogenic is the healthiest solution.

The following quote (emphasis mine) does not indicate to me that whole grain carbs need to be cut.
errc says

What are the biggest culprits of chronic inflammation? Quite simply, they are the overload of simple, highly processed carbohydrates (sugar, flour and all the products made from them) and the excess consumption of omega-6 vegetable oils like soybean, corn and sunflower that are found in many processed foods.

This coupled with bob's observations that other cultures eat plenty of carbs without the sickness indicates to me that the real problem is all the processed food, not carbs per-say.

30g of crab or less per day will supposedly induce ketosis. I'm not advocating that everyone participate. What I will say is that I believe that it is the cure for diabetes/obesity and the littany of problems that some in modern science are now growing in numbers to agree is the cause of. I agree, the quality of your carbs is a factor. Eating 100g of carb per day from fruits and veggies is much better then eating a bowl of cereal with low fat milk.

Like I said, my 2010 self would call my 2012 self nuts. However after losing 25% of my body weight without exercise and only thru limiting my fuel intake has me a believer. Not to mention now, when I do stray, it shows so much when exercising or any physical activity for that matter. By limiting fuel intake, I mean I was eating many MORE calories, and much less carbohydrates. Like I said, 1/2lb of bacon with 3-4 eggs, a large salad loaded up with chicken and bc dressing at lunch and a XL fatty cut of meat with veggies for supper

You would never know the difference without trying for yourself, id suggest first reading taubes book why we get fat and what to do bout it (because its such an easy read and hammers home the point using data, and then trying a 30 day elimination diet. You'll likely find it very hard to go back to poisoning yourself with toxic foods. That doesn't mean you won't still crave pizza with root beer or ice cream at times, but if your like me and many others that have tried, you'll possible ditch bread altogether

How much carbs do asians actually eat? Are they actually free of diabetes and obesity? Where do their carbs come from?

errc says

How much carbs do asians actually eat? Are they actually free of diabetes and obesity? Where do their carbs come from?

I have not double checked this, but this was apparently done in 1995 after a study of the "asian diet"

http://oldwayspt.org/resources/heritage-pyramids/asian-diet-pyramid/overview

I have seen that before. A little confusing to me, but like I said, millet>rice>wheat, imo

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-asian-paradox-how-can-asians-eat-so-much-rice-and-not-gain-weight/

Here is a link to someone else that agrees with the anti carb theory, and their musings as to how or why asians seem to not suffer ills from rice. Is it not at least somewhat suspect that in the modern day, knowing all that we now know, that the "science" behind human nutrition is so muddled?

errc says

I have seen that before. A little confusing to me, but like I said, millet>rice>wheat, imo

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-asian-paradox-how-can-asians-eat-so-much-rice-and-not-gain-weight/

Here is a link to someone else that agrees with the anti carb theory, and their musings as to how or why asians seem to not suffer ills from rice. Is it not at least somewhat suspect that in the modern day, knowing all that we now know, that the "science" behind human nutrition is so muddled?

You are correct. The article is a total muddle, dancing around to defend their pet theory in the face of contradictory evidence. Just from this article we learn that now there are Toxic carbs and non toxic carbs. Excercise makes you eat more unless you are Asian, then excercise makes you carb tolerant. There are carbs that can be part of in a no carb diet. Carbs are fine if eaten with unprocessed food. muddle, muddle, muddle. BUT, BUT, BUT wait, carbs cause inflammations, which leads to an epidemic heart disease and stroke, but somehow asians aren't dropping dead in large numbers. WTF.

Now your own postings have gone from "it's the carbs" to "its the type of carbs". Bullshit, it's the type of food, processed vs natural. Eat lots highly processed anything you will get fat.

Yet every single one of these thing you've posted seems to always come back to obliquely blaming processed foods with out ever standing up and saying it's the processed foods stupid.

If you are eating more calories than before and losing weight then god bless you. Bon Appétit. Whatever makes you happy. But just because walking around all the time in ketosis helps you lose weight does not mean it's a healthy state. It's healthier than being obese, but that's not the same thing as being healthy. It could be, but no one really knows. Feel free to be part of this grand experiment to find out. I'll pass thank you.

There is at least one control group that people that consume basically a no carb diet all the time, the Inuit of northern Canada. They actually have decent numbers for heart disease, diabetes, etc. EXCEPT you can't compare then to anyone else. The problem is their lifespan is so short. Only something like 3% make it over 65, where chronic lifestyle type problems really start showing up. Something to think about.

It could be, but noone really knows

Why so angry, robert? Little bit of a sugar crash after your shredded wheat biscuits and low fat milk?

I'm not trying to tell you what you ought to be eating. Feel free to wash down your snickers with a diet coke. I enjoy sharing the information, do with I what you will. Hell, go ahead and scientifically blow it apart. Ill ask again, no curiosity as to why nutrition is such a muddled science? Cui bono?

errc says

It could be, but noone really knows

Why so angry, robert? Little bit of a sugar crash after your shredded wheat biscuits and low fat milk?

I'm not trying to tell you what you ought to be eating. Feel free to wash down your snickers with a diet coke. I enjoy sharing the information, do with I what you will. Hell, go ahead and scientifically blow it apart. Ill ask again, no curiosity as to why nutrition is such a muddled science? Cui bono?

I don't see it as angry at all, just amazed that people could make so many contradictory statements in pursuit of their particular zeal.

I have a lot of curiosity, which is why I read up a quite a bit on the low carb fad as well as others that have come and gone. I haven't found where the low carb zealots have made a valid case yet. It seems with each fad that comes along the people involved are so passionate that reason goes out the window. Like statements saying "carbs make you sick" while you are obviously eating carbs yourself. It's like being pregnant, either you are or you aren't. Old joke:

Man: would you sleep with me for a million dollars.
Woman: A million dollars, ok.
Man: would you sleep with me for 10 dollars.
Woman: Of course not what kind of woman do you think I am.
Man: We established that already, we are just arguing price now.

Anything in excess will make you sick, too much water can kill you.

For the record I don't drink anything but water, despise low fat milk, don't eat any sugar (other than what naturally occurs in food), and eat almost no processed foods. I want my food fresh, local, and prepared from scratch as much as possible. My own food passion is avoiding processed food, but I can't find any contraindications for that one so I have to believe it's a valid position.

My question to you, why so defensive when people (not just me) point out the gaping inconsistencies in your passionate positions?