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Unions are not the problem in the economy, public unions are!!!!
invite response
2012 Jul 2, 8:19pm 31,929 views 63 comments
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MoneySheep
2012 Jul 4, 11:49pm
Public union workers are overpaid for the work they do. Obviously previous politicians gave in for the wages they demanded.
But this is also happening to private union workers, like GM. When I was in high school, there was this guy in most of my classes, he said to me, "Company should always pay its employees first, no matter what." I was puzzled. I thought, are you kidding me? Employees can be fired and replaced, but if I, the owner, is gone, the company dies. Later I found out that his father was a GM plant manager in Detroit!
We can all complain about the union living off all citizens. The next important question is:
*** How to fix the Union pay so we all dont have to support and subsidize their luxurious retirement?
taxee
2012 Jul 5, 12:02am
1) Tax rates on the wealthy are way down IN THE PRESENT. Political contributions from these wealthy are way up. 2) At the same time promised FUTURE BENEFITS to the workers are up ( a diabolical exchange for the lower tax rates) 3) The returns promised to pension funds are not reliably available any longer (Do you think investing in bogus loans or in slave colonies overseas is a good bet?) 4) The 'guarantees' are there to maintain faith in the financial sector so they can remain in charge. 5) The promises can only be paid by an entity that has the legal right to print money. And print it they will 6) The promised money will buy less.
FortWayne
2012 Jul 5, 1:16am
Remember when the Teachers, Fire fighters, Policemen etc. crashed the economy in 2007? Me neither...
They are crashing themselves.
And hey I don't remember the last time CA schools had actual standards, as George Carlin put it "All you need to graduate is a pencil." Can thank unions for lowering standards, lobbying to get illegals into our schools, and killing our education system.
As soon as you say taxes are "stolen", you've jumped out of reality. Taxes are what we pay for government, to protect ourselves from living in a "might makes right" anarchy. Are taxes too high, too low, applied to the wrong things, spent on the wrong things? That's all up for debate, and for the election of officials who can make choices. (There's no way we could do it without representatives - direct voting on every detail is tough enough in a room full of people, so imagine how hard it would be in a country.)
Employees can be fired and replaced, but if I, the owner, is gone, the company dies. Later I found out that his father was a GM plant manager in Detroit!
Who is the "owner" of GM. I thought it was a public company?
bruce.toms
2012 Jul 5, 4:21am
It's so true. Public employee unions exist only for the purpose of squeezing more dollars out of John Q. Taxpayer.
marcus
2012 Jul 5, 4:33am
And hey I don't remember the last time CA schools had actual standards,
He went on, "In fact I don't know anything, but here's something else I'm pulling out of my ass."
Private companies have switched over to 401(k)s, so why can't governments?
Private companies, especially the top dividends payers ones are known for having a 401K plan and a pension. That's similar to govt sector where you have access to a 457 (and they don't get a match) and a pension.
freak80
2012 Jul 5, 4:57am
The reason we can't meet our obilagations is because the banksters sold toxic assets that they knew were going to implode to these pension funds, so now the value of these funds isn't enough to pay out the money owed. Local governments are already strapped and are unwilling dip into the general fund to make up the difference or raise taxes to do so. This was not an issue of overspending but of massive financial fraud.
God Bless America.
freak80
2012 Jul 5, 4:58am
Taxes are what we pay for government, to protect ourselves from living in a "might makes right" anarchy.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa...
We're not living in a "might makes right" anarchy??
freak80
2012 Jul 5, 5:01am
Who is the "owner" of GM.
The top 0.1%. They own every other public company too, via stock.
Who is the "owner" of GM.
The top 0.1%. They own every other public company too, via stock.
Actually not true. 
My point was that GM wouldn't "die" if the "owner" walked away.
I have to agree with the basis of EconPete's thread. Essentially, Public Employees, via their Union Contracts, are taking an increasing amount of the tax basis for retirement, at a time when the standard of living for our children and grandchildren is deteriorating. We are headed for the mother of all class wars-the "Old against the Young", because my children and grandchildren will not subsidize my 30 years of playing golf and living in a large single-family dwelling, while they remain in mired in a 700 sq. ft. apartment, paying higher taxes, and resting easily at night because "mom and dad; grandma and grandpa" are still living the dream! At the end of the day, THE NUMBERS DO NOT ADD UP under most long-term investment scenarios. Of course, if you assume the very best returns of the 90s and early 2000s, continuing every year, ad-infinitum, then maybe, just maybe, the math works. The fact that Politicians make promises that can only be believed if you are under the use of hallucinagenic drugs, is beside the point.
freak80
2012 Jul 5, 5:40pm
At the end of the day, THE NUMBERS DO NOT ADD UP under most long-term investment scenarios. Of course, if you assume the very best returns of the 90s and early 2000s, continuing every year, ad-infinitum, then maybe, just maybe, the math works.
True. And then there's resource depletion and climate change to make it even more fun. And 7 billion humans.
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A union shop in a private company is still under many of the same capitalistic constraints as the company was prior to the formation of the union. If the company is not relevant in society or does not continually innovate and grow to keep up with the relentless, exaggerated wage increases, then the company will be forced to downsize or go out of business.
In the private sector, nobody is guaranteed customers (unless there is government intervention somehow). Each customer can at any time go with a competitor if the terms of their transactions no longer fulfill their needs. This democratic response mechanism creates efficiency in our economy and determines what gets produced, by who, and in what volumes. This is the U.S.’s best form of democracy. Each individual pursues their own happiness, and as an externality to their transactions, companies are chosen as winners and losers based on the number of dollars being spent.
If anyone ever hears about a baseball star making a $100,000,000 contract, it is only because stupid people are willing to spend massive amounts of money at games and on logo t-shirts to support these high wages. Again everyone in society has voted with their dollars and said; these workers are worthy of those wages. If someone disagrees with the high wages of superstars, then they should stop supporting them by spending $200 at games!
Public unions on the other hand are not responsive to individual’s desires to decrease a sectors influence in the economy, and subsequently their workers wages. The money/wages are stolen from people in the form of taxes without giving them any say in the process. Also, there is no possible way for a consumer to stop consuming the publicly provided service. This means that there is no mechanism in place to limit government influence in the economy.
The only people who care are the self-interested, and they always lobby to increase their importance in the economy. In the short-run, this creates minimal losses to 90% of society but huge gains to the 10%. As a result, the full 10% get out and promote their public sector’s growth while the 90% have little incentive to be bothered by the issue. In the long-run, the public sector gets more money from higher taxes than is otherwise warranted. High taxes further reduce the 90%’s available money left to be spent in the private sector. Those companies, who are losing business because their customers have decreased real wages, must also increase prices to cover their own increased tax liability and therefore attract even fewer customers.
Since money is stolen from tax payers and there is no capitalistic mechanism to decrease the governments influence in the economy, the public unions continue to grow. They distort the economy because they are not forced to increase the quality of output or lower prices since there is no competition and no threat of losing customers in the future. In the case with a private union failing to keep product quality up with their ever increasing wage demands, they will be stopped in their tracks and put out of business. This does not happen in the public sector. The public union only continues to grow requiring more and more taxes that eventually lower overall economic output and actually puts other companies out of business!
This is the main difference. Private unions are kept in check, while public unions are not. Public unions eat at the economy like an invisible tumor sucking all the viable funds that could be used to actually produce things of reasonable value for the economy!
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