patrick.net

I support universal healthcare, and I am someone who wants to privatize sidewalks.

curious2 says

In Holland, babies are born at home, with a midwife followed by a visiting nurse. Costs and infant mortality are both lower than here.

That's not true, home birth in netherlands is about 30% and that's after very careful screening for potential problems. It's not a valid comparison. It's a very small country and even if something goes badly wrong a hospital is very close at hand. Costs are lower than the us for all the oecd countries for all medical care. Infant mortality is also lower for all the other oecd countries. Netherlands is mid pack, so home delivery isn't really a factor.

Home birth can be a good option for carefully screened women, but until there are major reforms in malpractice insurance, home births in the US are going to struggle to get to the 1% mark.

curious2 says

Making people die more slowly and profitably isn't a miracle, it's a business model. Most people fear a slow painful death more than anything, but it's what they get.

I don't want to be kept alive at all costs -- literally. And I agree, the medical system is designed to do everything possible to keep us alive, even when it's time to go. It's up to my (only) kid to pull the plug, and I'm confident that she'll make the right decision when the time comes. My end of life wishes are in writing...

[...]

[...]

Buster says

Have to laugh at this one. No, Dr's are not the work horses of Medicine, Nurses are. You had better figure this one out and in the future your very life may depend on it.

Do you work in the hospital? I do. Trust me nurses are not the work horses. You are lead to believe that by the nurses and nursing unions, who you probably see on TV protesting about patient care, yet at the bargaining table only seem to care about their pay raises and benefit improvements. You would be surprised to see some of the crap that goes on in the hospitals. Im not saying they dont have their role however. Doctors may seem like they dont care but usually because they only have 15 mins to spend with you until they move onto one of the next 30 patients they need to see. Nurses have all day to spend with the 2-4 patients they take care of. So as a patient, the friendly faces you often see are the nurses, but the trust me they are not the work horses. They have nurses aids who clean the poop and blood and change bed sheets and get crap for them (basically the nurses slaves), they have environmental workers who clean the rooms and toilets, they have transporters who wheel patients to and from tests, etc, etc. You think they do all the work, but TRUST me they dont. This is not to take away from their role, but please do not exaggerate what you dont know. I live it every day at work.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

A doctor would just as soon stubb out a cigarette on your face as look at you.

But a nurse would actually have to dress the burn wound.

You should just go to a nurse the next time you are sick... Ill stick with my doctors.

Buster says

The Doctor's bill is actually a small part of where your healthcare dollars actually go. What is amazing is that the Insurance Administrative costs suck up about 25% of every healthcare dollar spent.

Totally agree with you here. I think i stated the same facts earlier.

jhall says

I don't want to be kept alive at all costs -- literally. And I agree, the medical system is designed to do everything possible to keep us alive, even when it's time to go.

Its not the medical system, but the laws passed by our legislators.

curious2 says

Making people die more slowly and profitably isn't a miracle, it's a business model. Most people fear a slow painful death more than anything, but it's what they get.

Honestly, you guys are crazy if you think that people do this to make a profit. In fact, end of life care make up the majority of health care costs and if this could be eliminated, would curb health care costs greatly.

Even if this practice did take place, the solution would be very simple. STOP going to the hospital and die at home. Physicians CAN NOT touch you without consent. Also you can always check yourself out of the hospital even against medical advice.

Meccos says

Doctors may seem like they dont care but usually because they only have 15 mins to spend with you until they move onto one of the next 30 patients they need to see.

Doctors will be paid $50 to $100 for each patient they see. They work 3 days in a row. Yes, they are responsible for their patients, but they are paid handsomely for their work. They rely on the nurses, cnas & med techs to follow the orders that they write.

Meccos says

Nurses have all day to spend with the 2-4 patients they take care of.

ICU patients have this amount. Medical Floor nurses have more, and run their asses off. Please don't diminish what nurses do. They spend all day with patients, follow MD orders, deal with families, and have to deal with endless bullshit from the hospital administration.

But also be aware that nurses aids do the actual patient care, and are the lowest paid. One complaint and they're fired.

I think it's fair to say that most hospital staff members work hard and are underpaid. Not the docs - they do work hard, but have time off if they wish to take it, and make a shitload of money.

Meccos says

Even if this practice did take place, the solution would be very simple. STOP going to the hospital and die at home. Physicians CAN NOT touch you without consent. Also you can always check yourself out of the hospital even against medical advice.

Correct - and if the patient is truly dying, they can choose hospice or comfort care if their doc will cooperate.

Problem is, they can also choose hospice if they're not. Hospice is big business and there are patients who are a full code, don't accept the hospice philosophy and yet still qualify for hospice. hospices pay their marketers HUGE commissions, so their incentive is to sign on every patient regardless of their physical condition. you don't have to have any type of license to be a hospice marketer - and yet you are giving patients advice about their physical condition. lots of abuse, there.

I retrieved my sweetheart from the trauma center in Walnut Creek after she was hit head on by a junkie who crossed a double yellow line while staring at his GPS. The bill for the ambulance ride and a two hour stay with diagnostics in the ER was $30,000. We're raising our car insurance liability to one million. Yet another way to go bankrupt.

errc says

obesity surpasses smoking in terms of ill health effects

errc says

A staggering two-thirds of Americans are overweight

OMG 2/3rds of us don't look like fashion models, I'm fucking shocked, somebody call Richard Simmons!

Hmm it would seem to me 2/3rds of us are dying from one form of cancer or another. What does the propaganda machine say about that?
Because to honest, I don't know where you Clowns live, but here where I am, 2/3rds of the people are NOT fat. What kind of shake down is this, Michelle Obama's Wholefoods stock doing bad or something?
But What is alarming, cancer seems to have touched at least 2/3rds of every family I know, in the last two years.

jhall says

Obesity is a huge problem (heh, heh)

Obligatory:

OK yeah good point, 2 fat kids, one fatter than the other, what are there must have been at least 50 other patrons in that McDonalds, what they weren't fat enough to make a point for the photog? Where's the 6 fat fucks standing next to 3 skinny guys? It's just propaganda folks, when the libs control what you consume, they will control what you consume.

curious2 says

From what I have read, the major barrier to home births remain legislative restrictions driven by hospitals and AMA. This was litigated in Missouri, for example, with midwives having to go to the state's Supreme Court.

There are no restrictions at the federal level on home births. At the state level the only restrictions I've ever heard of are certified nurse midwife vs certified professional midwife. CNM have medical as well as midwifery training. CNM's can deliver at home in all 50 states. CPM are direct entry, with no medical training. They are trained only in midwifery. CPM's can deliver at home in 27 states.

What legislative restrictions driven by hospitals and the AMA are you talking about? CPM vs CNM seems to be mostly a bureaucratic cya thing from what I've read although I'm sure protecting turf enters into it.

As someone who has several family members who are ob's some of the tales I've heard are very hair raising. When things go bad in childbirth they can go really bad, really fast. As in dead mother and child. Home birth is a good option for someone who is very low risk, but even then things can still go very bad out of the blue.

Insurance for home births is a bigger problem. Malpractice insurance for ob's doesn't cover home births. Get caught doing one you will lose your insurance and no other carrier will pick you up. For CNM's it depends, but if they are part of a dr's practice home birth is not insured. Most CPM's don't have insurance. I can understand why, ob insurance can run 100k plus a year. A CPM doing home births would be pretty expensive insurance also without nearly the billing of an ob to cover it. But if the CPM drops the ball then the patient is out of luck in terms of getting an insurance settlement to pay for damages. It's not something CPM's advertise.

curious2 says

I have an AHCD as well, naming a friend to pull the plug. In case of any hesitation on his part, I've also given him contact information for someone who really hates me and would show up with a bat to finish me off ASAP.

I hadn't thought of that. Great idea!

elliemae says

Hospice is big business and there are patients who are a full code, don't accept the hospice philosophy and yet still qualify for hospice. hospices pay their marketers HUGE commissions, so their incentive is to sign on every patient regardless of their physical condition. you don't have to have any type of license to be a hospice marketer - and yet you are giving patients advice about their physical condition. lots of abuse, there.

Good information here. I had no idea.

Old news but reality none the less
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_109143.html

And many of them had insurance, we'reallfucked.org

elliemae says

Doctors will be paid $50 to $100 for each patient they see. They work 3 days in a row.

WTF? where do you get these numbers? First of all, doctors get paid differently depending on specialty. On top of that, they do not get paid per patient, but on what is done per patient and why it is done. Clearly there is some lack of knowledge with this original poster. Secondly, most doctors work minimum 5 days a week, with many often working 6 days or even 7 days a week.

elliemae says

Yes, they are responsible for their patients, but they are paid handsomely for their work.

They were paid handsomely. Doctors get paid less now than they did 10 years ago. There are MANY nurses in the hospital that I work at that get paid more than most doctors...

elliemae says

They rely on the nurses, cnas & med techs to follow the orders that they write.

Yes, true.

elliemae says

Meccos says

Nurses have all day to spend with the 2-4 patients they take care of.

ICU patients have this amount. Medical Floor nurses have more, and run their asses off. Please don't diminish what nurses do. They spend all day with patients, follow MD orders, deal with families, and have to deal with endless bullshit from the hospital administration.

Yes, nurses do deal with bullshit everyday. Unfortunately everyone in the hospitals deal with bullshit everyday. Sorry I am not trying to diminish nursing work. BUT the fact is the nursing:patient ratio in ICU is 2 to 1, and on the floors its usually 4-5 to 1. Physicians to patient ratio is usually 20-30:1.elliemae says

But also be aware that nurses aids do the actual patient care, and are the lowest paid. One complaint and they're fired.

Yes nurse do actual patient care. BUT i have to disagree that they are the lowest paid. Nurses in general are usually the next highest paid after the doctors. I cant say what happens outside of California, but in California, there are plenty and plenty and plenty of nurses who are easily making 6 figures. Some, as I mentioned, make more than most family medicine docs, internal medicine docs and pediatricians.

elliemae says

I think it's fair to say that most hospital staff members work hard and are underpaid. Not the docs - they do work hard, but have time off if they wish to take it, and make a shitload of money.

This is laughable on all parts. MOst ppl in hospitals are overpaid (ill admit, even some docs), Docs cannot take time off as they wish, and certainly it is not a shitload of money...
If you wanna talk about people who get paid loads of money for what they do, then look into these nurses... yes they are nurses

http://www.anesthesiazone.com/crna-salaries.aspx

Meccos says

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

A doctor would just as soon stubb out a cigarette on your face as look at you.

But a nurse would actually have to dress the burn wound.

You should just go to a nurse the next time you are sick... Ill stick with my doctors.

Personally, after the experiences I've had with doctors and nurses both, I would choose a nurse over a doctor, a veterinarian over either one, and if I have a broken bone? A mechanic: someone who is good at actually fixing something, rather than burned out from paperwork.

Meccos says

Yes nurse do actual patient care. BUT i have to disagree that they are the lowest paid. Nurses in general are usually the next highest paid after the doctors.

Please re-read the quote; nurses' aids (CNA's) do the actual work and are paid the least.

Nurses make less than many OT's, PT's, respiratory therapists, pharmacists and many other professionals. So, no, they aren't paid second to docs. And that doesn't count the fat in hospital adminstration.

The docs I was talking about are the consultants, who see patients for five minutes, make a note in the chart, order labs and bill the patients for their time. Consultants are usually called in for every condition that the patient has.

Many docs such as ER or other specialties work 3 day shifts. Those who work five usually work eight hour days. New docs, residents or workaholics work seven days a week.

The nurses with whom I've worked mostly bust their asses, and aren't overpaid. Sorry that you have a different experience.

Just as nobody who travels ever says, "My, what a beautiful airport.", nobody discussing health care seems to want to discuss the E.O.B. .
"Explanation Of Benefits".
This one item, if collectively analyzed demographically, will tell you more about the costs of health care than all of the 'experts' combined.
The E.O.B. will show how hospitals bill for stuff they didn't do, how they pad the expenses with 200 dollar aspirin, and how insurance companies act as a union negotiator, so that you pay premiums like you're getting gold plated bed sheets, but the insurance company stongarms the hospital until it pays for dirty paper, while insisting that hospitals charge too much. Who insures the hospitals against bankrupt patients? Who insists that every insurance plan needs a new form to fill out?
Why are hospitals being built as far from poor people as possible? What are the parameters used by Medicare to set "usual and customary" rates? What relationships are going on between legislators, campaign contributions, and the health of citizens?
People don't need insurance. They need good health.
This is the first place to start asking about how to be decent to each other. The price won't matter if people are actually healthy, because they won't need to go to the doctor in the first place. We may have to rethink the whole concept of using medical practices at all (let some people die of disease and at birth so the rest are overall healthier). I'm not saying that is what we SHOULD do, but that we have to actually DECIDE what to do, not shift around a lot of words and money and then mindlessly pick the cheapest or easiest thing from a spreadsheet.
If that was the case, I would say that all medical personnel should be drafted in the military and put an end to all of this private ripoff horseshit. If we are to be a military-fascist Empire, conquering and spreading the White is Right power around the world like Teddy Roosevelt wanted, then let's just BE the most efficient killers we can be. It might cut down on health care costs. If socialized medicine is good enough for the troops, then make everyone a troop.
In the sane world, however, we need to evaluate the root causes of all the sick people, not the costs of the marketing and buildings and landscaping and campaign contributions. The first area to address is Cheap Food and its cousins, Consumerism and Wealth Extraction. Our biggest problem with health is really food, but the Agriculture department wants nothing to do with health, and the Health department wants nothing to do with food. The ignorance is a problem of the education system that focuses on getting people into good jobs so they can afford the expensive insurance, rather than ensuring they are able to care for themselves and choose proper food. We allow market forces to push people apart based on the color of their skin or clothes, rather than work to cooperate as communities for a better living space. Just about everything about our human "success" is a failure, but we are too wound up by language and hatred (and working 3 jobs to pay for a car to drive to 3 jobs) to stop and think that if we cooperated as a neighborhood, half wouldn't even need cars or jobs. The health care issue is a side effect, like the boom and bust economy, of our frantic cognitive burnout in a senseless society of shiny, noisy crap and the people who push it like drug dealers. Every spectacle, every argument, every idiotic rampage sets the advertising meter spinning.
If you want Change, keep it in your pocket. Smash the TV. Come up with a plan to eventually sell the car and find a doctor to live in your building. We don't need Them..They just sold themselves to us. We used to do it all ourselves and we died for the right to do so. It's not that 'you didn't build that', but that They made it illegal for you to do so without a corporation or a lawyer or a doctor or a permit.

elliemae says

Consultants are usually called in for every condition that the patient has.

I WISH!! The doctors I get to see won't call in a specialist unless you are catatonic or spazzing out on the floor. It might cost money or time in the HMO world, where people are treated like cars at the drive-thru, and they'll do everything they can to ruin your chance to slow down the process. Mostly, they just nod and smile and say, "you don't have anything to worry about", you're fine: here's some expensive free pills. The 'experts' say stupid shit like "get a second opinion" or "see a different doctor". Yeah, THAT's gonna get you somewhere useful in a world where only a missing organ will get admittance through the insurance gauntlet. The 'specialists' are always somewhere on one of the coasts, and would require a week off (if you can get to see them sometime in the next frackin' DECADE).
"My GOD, MAN!! Drilling holes in his brain isn't the answer!!" -Dr. McCoy

elliemae says

The nurses with whom I've worked mostly bust their asses, and aren't overpaid. Sorry that you have a different experience.

My mom was an aide, then went to school to be an LPN (tuition benefit of the hospital). When she only had a couple of credits to take to get her RN, she said, "what the heck" and continued her education. The nursing union chased her out because she was overqualified (they wouldn't let her keep her LPN job). So she left hospital nursing and started doing nursing home care, then in-home care (basically calling the morgue for terminal patients who were sent home). The job would be maybe 2 hours of patient care, 4 hours of driving (it's a very rural area), and 5 hours of paperwork. She made more money on the mileage wearing out her car than on salary. Why did she do it? Because my dad was a farmer and they needed to get health insurance.
This leads to a 'P.S.' for those who don't know: Farm Bureau is an INSURANCE COMPANY, not a union of farmers (but they exploit farmers to be on local 'boards' and convince them to lobby for the company platform), so when you hear something like "The Farm Bureau likes the new farm bill in Congress", it means something totally different than what they are implying.

errc says

The real reason health care is so unaffordable

errc says

obesity surpasses smoking in terms of ill health effects

Hospitals charge by the pound.

Auntiegrav says

Meccos says

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

A doctor would just as soon stubb out a cigarette on your face as look at you.

But a nurse would actually have to dress the burn wound.

You should just go to a nurse the next time you are sick... Ill stick with my doctors.

Personally, after the experiences I've had with doctors and nurses both, I would choose a nurse over a doctor, a veterinarian over either one, and if I have a broken bone? A mechanic: someone who is good at actually fixing something, rather than burned out from paperwork.

Great... Go to a nurse the next time you or your family member is sick. Oh can you please post the results of how everything turned out? Id love to hear about it.

elliemae says

The docs I was talking about are the consultants, who see patients for five minutes, make a note in the chart, order labs and bill the patients for their time. Consultants are usually called in for every condition that the patient has.

Many docs such as ER or other specialties work 3 day shifts. Those who work five usually work eight hour days. New docs, residents or workaholics work seven days a week.

The nurses with whom I've worked mostly bust their asses, and aren't overpaid. Sorry that you have a different experience.

Again you are so off base it is funny. You make these assumptions about consultants based on the minutia you know about them. Clearly if you work in a hospital you know little about how things run.

ER docs work 3-4 days a week, however their shifts are usually 12 hours. Most of the other doctors who you claim work 5 days a week work more than 8 hours a day. I do not know of any doctor who actually work 40 hours a week, unless they are part time. Just a FYI, most doctors are not paid by the hour unlike the rest of the hospital staff. They go home when they are done with their work and the work is almost never limited to 40 hours a week.

OH and if you want to talk about interns and residents, they work 80 hours a week, only because law prohibits them from working longer than that. And in the times when they work longer than 80 hours, they just dont log it.

Auntiegrav says

The nursing union chased her out because she was overqualified (they wouldn't let her keep her LPN job).

knowing what i know about nursing unions, im not surprised..

elliemae says

Please re-read the quote; nurses' aids (CNA's) do the actual work and are paid the least.

I stand corrected. Yes they are paid little,... but to be fair, their level of education is very limited and this is a job almost anyone with minimal training can do.

Lots needs to change. Sometime I wonder if Americans wouldn't be better off overall going back 20 years (even if it meant losing 20 years of technology/ proceedure developments/ beneficial drugs, etc.) to get back to more affordable healthcare. Hmmm...

Meccos says

Great... Go to a nurse the next time you or your family member is sick. Oh can you please post the results of how everything turned out? Id love to hear about it.

Been doing it for years. The nurse tells me when to see a doctor. Most of the time....NOT to. So, yes...it's worked out well and we've saved a lot of money.
Also, too: you can just call "Ask a Nurse".

Auntiegrav says

Been doing it for years. The nurse tells me when to see a doctor. Most of the time....NOT to. So, yes...it's worked out well and we've saved a lot of money.
Also, too: you can just call "Ask a Nurse".

Most of the time, people come to see a doctor for no good reason, so understandably it wouldnt make sense to see a doctor. But the stats will tell you that most people will need to see a doctor for a serious illness sooner or later. Why take a chance with a nurse (who by the way is not qualified to make any diagnosis) to save a few bucks?

You will get what you pay for...

Just cuz you have been lucky till now, doesnt mean you will continue to be lucky. Good luck.. I really mean that.

Meccos says

MOst ppl in hospitals are overpaid

Meccos says

Trust me nurses are not the work horses.

Meccos says

Again you are so off base it is funny. You make these assumptions about consultants based on the minutia you know about them. Clearly if you work in a hospital you know little about how things run.

Example is for a private hospital: You're admitted to the hospital with a broken hip. You have diabetes, copd, hypertension and mild kidney failure. Every day that you are there, you are seen by an endocrinologist, a pulmomogist, a cardiologist and a nephrologist. Also the orthopod, who performed your surgery. He might act as your primary, or you might also have a hospitalist assigned to you.

Obviously you are an expert in the field of medical billing, healthcare, insurance, nursing and all things medicine. I disagree with your statements about nursing - and find it interesting that you make a statement about the lack of education about CNA's (fair), but disregard the education and experience that nurses have:
Meccos says

to be fair, their level of education is very limited and this is a job almost anyone with minimal training can do.

Physicians write the orders, nurses carry them out. They are with the patients 24/7. Doctors stop in and see them, check labs and read the nurse's notes in the charts. They respond to the nurse's notes and calls - not their own personal observation.
It's a team effort.

There are many types of nursing, and not all of them have a couple of patients to watch.

The hospice nurses with whom I work are paid well - but they work long hours, do a fair amount of paperwork at home (at least a couple of hours each night), spend time with patients, physicians, and the entire hospice team. They are responsible for the healthcare of their patients and work closely with the physicians to ensure that patients receive the best care possible.

For this they are yelled at if they cancel appointments or are late (often because they are attending a death), must drop everything and run to a patient's house to attend to them when they call, be the bearer of bad news - all to help people at the end of their lives.

My experience has been that hospital nurses are good, home health nurses are good, mental health (good), nursing home (adequate to good, depending upon the facility), but hospice nurses are great.

Meccos says

But the stats will tell you that most people will need to see a doctor for a serious illness sooner or later.

Sure, doctors diagnose. Nurses treat. As I said before, it's a team effort. The medical field couldn't run without nurses or doctors, and they aren't the reason that the system is broken. Neither is more important - and when a doctor gets an attitude and the nurses set him/her in his/her place, doctors learn this lesson.

Some doctors have treated me and my profession with disdain as well (social work), but when they wrote an order to send their patient to a specific facility and attempted to arrange it on their own, they quickly found out that they need social workers. Everyone works together, and anyone who doesn't recognize that has no understanding of how hospitals work.

I'm done with this thread, because you have stated over & over that nurses aren't worthwhile. You've made your point.

Meccos says

Good luck.. I really mean that.

No, you don't.

elliemae says

Obviously you are an expert in the field of medical billing, healthcare, insurance, nursing and all things medicine. I disagree with your statements about nursing - and find it interesting that you make a statement about the lack of education about CNA's (fair), but disregard the education and experience that nurses have:
Meccos says

to be fair, their level of education is very limited and this is a job almost anyone with minimal training can do.

Are you serious? You quoted me talking about CNAs but you mis-represented it as me talking about nurses. Thats really tricky.

elliemae says

Doctors stop in and see them, check labs and read the nurse's notes in the charts. They respond to the nurse's notes and calls - not their own personal observation.

I dont know many doctors that rely on nurses notes. If you think they do, then you are really wrong. They may ask nurses how the patient is doing, just to get a general idea of what has been going on. I have yet seen a doctor rely on nurses notes to make a medical decision without their own personal observation as you suggest. The problem with you is that you make these crazy statements that try to elevate the importance of the support staff. Its not to say that nurses are not important, but you clearly try to elevate their importance.

elliemae says

Sure, doctors diagnose. Nurses treat.

Here you go again.

elliemae says

and when a doctor gets an attitude and the nurses set him/her in his/her place, doctors learn this lesson.

funny. I suppose the nurses are the bosses right? I see doctors get an attitude usually because the nurses fail to do their jobs properly.

Although it may not sound like it, by no means am I saying doctors are the only ones doing anything. I know the hospitals need everyone to contribute. With that said, the hospital does revolve around the doctors. People to go hospitals to see doctors, not really anyone else. My issue is when i see posts who try to up-play the roles of the support staff while minimizing the roles of physicians. I just find it hilarious.

Its kinda like seeing a punter say is as important to a football team as the quarterback...

elliemae says

Meccos says

Good luck.. I really mean that.

No, you don't.

No, I really do. Because if you think you can go to a nurse to get treatment when you are seriously ill, then you will need all the luck in the world....and then some.

Meccos says

I dont know many doctors that rely on nurses notes.

All doctors rely on nurses notes. The nurses chart all the information about the patient. Medications taken, all observed data, events, patients complaints, events, etc., etc., etc. are all written in the charts by nurses.

Its pretty typical for nearly all the notes in a patient's file to be written by a nurse or tech. The doctor usually reviews them and maybe scribbles in a few things or dictates some stuff and that is it.

Dr's today don't have the time to write comprehensive notes. They usually spend 10-15 min. tops per patient in order to see as many as possible in a day. They do not have time to screw with paper work at all hardly anymore really or for that matter the business side of things, which is why many are selling their private practices and becoming employees of some hospital group.

elliemae says

Physicians write the orders, nurses carry them out. They are with the patients 24/7. Doctors stop in and see them, check labs and read the nurse's notes in the charts. They respond to the nurse's notes and calls - not their own personal observation.
It's a team effort...................Sure, doctors diagnose. Nurses treat. As I said before, it's a team effort.

This is bang on too.

Unless the fecal matter has sprayed all over the fan doctors won't do much of the treatment in a hospital setting. Nurses or techs do nearly all of it. The doc does his spot checks 1 or twice a day per patient and that is about it.elliemae says

There are many types of nursing, and not all of them have a couple of patients to watch.

Yuuuup.

Depending shift and dept. a nurse can end up watching 7 patients or more. Granted, they usually have at least a few "helpers" in the form of PCT's or whatever you call them around too.

Nurses working in dept. with a 1-1 patient ratio though are usually doing the hairy/labor intensive stuff. NICU, ICU, OR, etc.elliemae says

My experience has been that hospital nurses are good, home health nurses are good, mental health (good), nursing home (adequate to good, depending upon the facility), but hospice nurses are great.

Hospice is tough work, the nurses who can do it for years on end are usually saint like.

In the other dept. and settings nurse quality can vary dramatically though. Most of the burnt out/snippy nurses can be found in ER, usually they don't last more than 2 yr there before leaving the dept. or going to another hospital. The "battle ax/seen-some-shit" nurses tend to hang out in the ICU/NICU. In terms of knowledge and quality of care always the best but you don't dare sass them, no sir. Even the docs usually respect them, though they usually won't tell them that to their face.

In other dept. you can get all kinds and types. OR nurses and Circulator/Scrubs tended to be far and away the most stuck up consistently though.

Meccos says

My issue is when i see posts who try to up-play the roles of the support staff while minimizing the roles of physicians. I just find it hilarious.

Good for you. If you're sick, go to a doctor who has no support staff. Let him draw the blood, perform xrays, complete the preauth paperwork, take care of forms for benefits and referrals to community programs that can help patients, change your ass, dispense your meds, and do all the other things that support staff does. Good luck finding that doctor -he died in the 1930's.

Meccos says

Are you serious? You quoted me talking about CNAs but you mis-represented it as me talking about nurses. Thats really tricky.

Might have been tricky had you actually read & considered my post. You said that cna's have little education, yet you've been slamming nurses who do have education. You can't have it both ways - if CNA's are so low paid because of their lack of education then it only stands to reason that nurses would be well-paid due to their education. I can't be more clear than that.

We can beat this dead horse all you want, but it won't change your mind. The message I (and everyone else, from what I can see) receive from your posts is that you intensely dislike nurses and believe that doctors are gods. And that you think that whatever experience you have is better than mine.

Having an argument on the interwebs with anonymous misinformed people who believe that nurses have little value isn't productive for me. I didn't say that Docs have no value, I've stated repeatedly that it's a team effort. If the hospital where you live it every day doesn't operate in this matter, it's an exception... and hopefully a short-lived one.

Elliemae, over & out.

This is ridiculous, nurses ? Doctors? The real subject is why the hell are people so misinformed and completely overlook taking care of their bodies. Doctors and nurses have their place in health but neither is first. The point of the thread is being replace by a fight over which costly service is better?