patrick.net

Kevin says

A big part of the problem there are all the chinese and indian immigrants who are culturally pressured to buy an expensive home. They have few to no kids. They're probably making terrible decisions, but they think that's what they're supposed to do. So they go out and spend two thirds of their income on a house and never take vacations.

actually it's whites who have the least amount of kids. i guess you haven't read the papers during the past few decades.

Asians are the second fastest growing group in the US behind Latinos.

i don't see a lot of Indians and Chinese being underwater and having to run away from their foreclosed homes, it's mostly blacks, Hispanics and whites.

how about they bought houses there because they worked there and could afford to buy?

Asians make the most in this country on average so why wouldn't top Asian earners be able to buy more expensive houses than the average Americans?

Kevin says

The nice aspect of living in SV is that there are dozens of companies that will hire you. You move elsewhere and demand is much lower (which means you get paid less).

yes.. this was true at one time.. but becoming more and more non-existent.

And frankly you might be locked out from going to the competition. Such practice has been very common over the decades.. especially in the Semi, PC/Workstation, software industries. Another reason many moved out to get distance from each other.

Feds sue eBay over secret anti-poaching deal with Intuit
Posted: 11/16/2012

Document: Department of Justice civil antitrust lawsuit against eBay

The U.S. Justice Department on Friday accused eBay and former CEO Meg Whitman of conspiring with Intuit executives to not poach each others' employees, adding to the list of Silicon Valley companies linked to similar antitrust allegations.

In a lawsuit filed in San Jose federal court, the federal government alleges that eBay and Intuit entered into an "illegal agreement" between 2006 and 2009 that prevented the rivals from raiding their respective workforces and damaging opportunities for employees at the two companies. Federal regulators say the deal specifically barred eBay from recruiting Intuit workers to the point that eBay executives were instructed to throw out the résumés of Intuit candidates.

according to these numbers, the rate of homeowner ship for whites in the SV and SF bay are still higher than that of Asians so if there is a group that's responsible for the ridiculous prices in those areas it's white people. lets not be racist.

http://diversitydata-archive.org/Data/Rankings/Show.aspx?ind=210

Mark D says

actually it's whites who have the least amount of kids. i guess you haven't read the papers during the past few decades.

That's entirely irrelevant.

I never claimed these good folks were under water either. House prices are holding up so why shouldn't they be? But I also see lots of people paying 50% of their pre-tax income for housing. That's why the prices remain so ridiculous.

When you have people with a shit ton of money who are willing to spend most of it on housing, housing becomes unaffordable to anyone not willing to go to such lengths.

It's not *just* immigrants; far from it. They just seem to be much more affected by the 'spend half of your income' mentality. There are some good reasons for this, like being able to establish permanent residency and having a safe guard if you have H1B issues, but it's still a problem.

thomaswong.1986 says

And frankly you might be locked out from going to the competition. Such practice has been very common over the decades.. especially in the Semi, PC/Workstation, software industries. Another reason many moved out to get distance from each other.

Not legal in california.

I have not seen anywhere outside of silicon valley that is able to offer so many options for tech people. In most big cities there are maybe two or three viable employers, if you're lucky. More likely than not you'll just be running the website for some bank or retailer for a third of what an entry level engineer at a bay area company makes.

Mark D says

according to these numbers, the rate of homeowner ship for whites in the SV and SF bay are still higher than that of Asians so if there is a group that's responsible for the ridiculous prices in those areas it's white people. lets not be racist.

There is a tendency to refer to "Asians" as a single demographic group. However, there are huge cultural differences between different Asian groups in the Bay Area. Fourth generation Chinese-Americans don't have much in common with more recent FOB arrivals.

That being said, there is a natural tendency for people to cluster by ethnicity. That's one of the biggest reasons why different Asian groups are drawn here.

My prediction is that medium to long term there will be somewhat of a "white flight" out of the Bay Area as white Baby Boomers sell their houses and move to other parts of the U.S. where their kids have settled (because their kids can't afford to live in SV) to raise families.

Kevin says

It's not *just* immigrants; far from it. They just seem to be much more affected by the 'spend half of your income' mentality. There are some good reasons for this, like being able to establish permanent residency and having a safe guard if you have H1B issues, but it's still a problem.

that has not been my experience.

i think it's the opposite actually. it's usually Asians and Middle Eastern Immigrants that tend to spend money on both luxury cars and housing while whites buy a $5000 car and put the rest into housing because they don't want to pay taxes and support blacks and Latinos.

not to mention Asians are the ones who are willing to live 5-10 people in one house. every single white person wants a 2-3 bedroom house to themselves, even when single, just so they can say "I have made it."

lets not be racist.

Kevin says

Not legal in california.

Its been around now for 30+ years.. so pretty much everyone knows about this.. its no secret.. the Gentleman's Agreement between archrivals Intel and AMD.. not to hire each others employees until a 2 year separation. Seagate and Connors..Apple and Sun Micro...similar arrangements.

Kevin says

I have not seen anywhere outside of silicon valley that is able to offer so many options for tech people. In most big cities there are maybe two or three viable employers, if you're lucky.

It make no difference to the Employer anymore... be Intel sets up shop in the NorthEast, SouthWest or Where ever.. Its no longer locations. Im sure there will be plenty of Engineers coming from University of Arizona that would be too glad to be working in their native Phoenix. The planning department makes those choices.. not employees. After all can you point to one spot on the map and call it GE or IBM capital. Its all divisions seeking lower of cost advantage.

ducsingle5313 says

My prediction is that medium to long term there will be somewhat of a "white flight" out of the Bay Area as white Baby Boomers sell their houses and move to other parts of the U.S. where their kids have settled (because their kids can't afford to live in SV) to raise families.

The "White Flight" already happened in the South Bay.. moved up north, southwest and Florida early since the late 80s . And its not the poor.. they are really really well off doing well in Florida.. smug!

The bubble prices more recently moved many many more.. the greater fool theory is no theory!

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.UKsd0kiUx0w

SFace says

I have to respectfully disagree. Just look at mobile.

Apple, Samsung USA, (mobile software development), HTC, Nokia, Motorola Mobile, Amazon (Kindle Fire), Dell, HPQ. Research in Motion, Microsoft and Google. All the top players are here in hardward design and/or mobile development. The cluster effect as you will.

Microprocessors very small and very fast... something that has been around for a very very long time.. not to mention...Telecom equipment, mass storage... nothing you mention of the toys i mean was possible from all the work from decades past from people you will never meet..

and to think many here were still in their pampers...

The H.P. Touch Computer (1983)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-THdG5gVTw

thomaswong.1986 says

The "White Flight" already happened in the South Bay.. moved up north, southwest and Florida early since the late 80s . And its not the poor.. they are really really well off doing well in Florida.. smug!

this is good. when white flight is completed, prices will go back to normal in the Bay area.

a typical Asian immigrant family consists of husband, wife, the guy's parents and unmarried kids.

in a typical white family, mom and dad are divorced, grandparents are divorced even at age 75. everyone MUST get their own house or life is not worth living. no wonder houses are so expensive and won't go down.

if white people would learn to live together in the same house prices would become A LOT more affordable.

SFace says

You sound like a grandpa dude.

I might well be.. at least I do understand the toys you point to are really all from semiconductors, software (UNIX) , mass storage, global telecom infrastructure which was designed and evolved long long before you. Most dont talk about the real work what was created decades ago...

so im not that impressed by the toys the cool and hip wack off with today...

I guess the white folks had it right for decades past.. perhaps the immigrants have a lot to learn. You Think ?

thomaswong.1986 says

I guess the white folks had it right for decades past.. perhaps the immigrants have a lot to learn. You Think ?

not when the country is going bankrupted. it's not just America (where there are minorities to be blamed), look at Europe

the immigrants you spoke of are the ones that will be here paying tons of taxes that finance all the entitlement programs. the US government has never paid a dime to raise and educate them and now they are getting a nice steady stream of tax revenue. looks like Americans are getting a good deal.

white people should be thanking them for migrating here and bailing them out.

Mark D says

this is good. when white flight is completed, prices will go back to normal in the Bay area.

a typical Asian immigrant family consists of husband, wife, the guy's parents and unmarried kids.

in a typical white family, mom and dad are divorced, grandparents are divorced even at age 75. everyone MUST get their own house or life is not worth living. no wonder houses are so expensive and won't go down.

if white people would learn to live together in the same house prices would become A LOT more affordable.

LOL

My wife, who moved here from Hong Kong in 1997, thought exactly the same thing back before she really knew very many white people. You are either making things up or only know white people on TV. Don't try to make it sound like white people are the only ones with marital problems lol. They certainly do have them, but they are not alone. If you have been to Asia at all, you know that any guy with a business and money over there has women on the side, and often unwanted children running around. Going to KTV and fucking prostitutes is pretty standard too. Well, than again, I bet that about as many of them do that as normal middle class folks here are serial-divorcees. Generalizing is fun!

Housing in major Asian metros is vastly more unaffordable for normal working class people, even with them piling 3+ generations into a 400 square foot condo. Your argument that people living multi-generationally will lower house prices is ludicrous at best. If everyone was willing to live 6+ people to a house, with two working couples and some cash from the grandparents, housing would cost a hell of a lot more since people could afford to pay a hell of a lot more.

Anyway, this thread is getting off onto an odd tangent. I don't think that anyone here is single-handedly blaming any one ethnic group for anything. The demographics of the SFBA are changing, and part of the new demographic that is phasing in places more value on housing than others. It sucks for resident natives, but for those coming from tougher places in the world it's great. Dummies over-paying for housing is not race-specific anyway. It just gets noted in here because the SFBA is seeing an influx of Asians and Indians and they will probably establish themselves as a major component of the upper-middle class in the coming decade. White folks had better get used to it.

The idiocy surrounding the cost of living here is just plain old human stupidity. The SFBA is a psychotic salt lick for people with money to burn (or that think they have it). As user BACAH notes, it all runs on the Greater Fool principle, and the SFBA has self-selected itself into a region of fools. There are still waaaaaay worse places to be, but it is just annoying as hell for those of us that grew up here and want to stay close to their family and friends without having to engage in the big frenzied rat-race being pushed by people from other parts of the US and world. That's life though.

SFace says

What you think of fool is just economic reality.

I can agree with that.

My beef is more with the quality of life aspect, which is indeed subjective. Spending countless hours in an office and in traffic to fund a house isn't "living" in my book. But, it is "living" to many people and I do have to compete with them around here. Maybe I am just a simple guy living in a place where simple folks don't belong. I know I should just shut up and either put up with it or move. But bitching on the interwebs is more fun.

thomaswong.1986 says

t make no difference to the Employer anymore... be Intel sets up shop in the NorthEast, SouthWest or Where ever.. Its no longer locations. Im sure there will be plenty of Engineers coming from University of Arizona that would be too glad to be working in their native Phoenix. The planning department makes those choices.. not employees. After all can you point to one spot on the map and call it GE or IBM capital. Its all divisions seeking lower of cost advantage.

You have obviously never worked in a real tech company. Location absolutely matters. The myth that people can work anywhere was dead a decade ago.

bmwman91 says

Going to KTV and fucking prostitutes is pretty standard too. Well, than again, I bet that about as many of them do that as normal middle class folks here are serial-divorcees. Generalizing is fun!

What goes on in Soap Land..stays in Soap Land... LOL!

Kevin says

You have obviously never worked in a real tech company. Location absolutely matters. The myth that people can work anywhere was dead a decade ago.

Yes, I worked in tech for 30+ years.. worked on and seen plenty of local operations (SV) moved to other states.

There are no myths.. since any SV company you point to have 90% of their operations elsewhere and not in SV.. Look at Intel, HP, Symantec, or any others.. HP certainly doesnt have ALL 350K employees in NorCal.. why would they need to?
HP is all to happy to have R&D in Colorado where its cheaper. And the natives in CO and state Govt are all to happy to have jobs in their state.

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/displayfilinginfo.aspx?FilingID=8290834-140891-145328&type=sect&dcn=0001047469-11-010094

HP R&D...

Cupertino, Roseville, San Diego, and Woodland, California

Houston, Texas
Corvallis, Oregon
Aguadilla, Puerto Rico
Indianapolis, Indiana
Andover, Massachusetts
Boise, Idaho
LaVergne, Tennessee
Vancouver, Washington
Ft Collins, Colorado
Sandston, Virginia

Certainly R&D isnt a function need to be local..but long term projects unrelated to day to day revenue generating tasks. They have no importance to running operations each month, have no customer interaction, and certainly unimportant in regarding financial and tax compliance/disclosure.

But dont take word for it.. talk to your CEO/CFO and planning department...

SFace says

The cluster effect

Yeah, the region has become a cluster something, you bet.

thomaswong.1986 says

Kevin says

You have obviously never worked in a real tech company. Location absolutely matters. The myth that people can work anywhere was dead a decade ago.

Yes, I worked in tech for 30+ years.. worked on and seen plenty of local operations (SV) moved to other states.

There are no myths.. since any SV company you point to have 90% of their operations elsewhere and not in SV.. Look at Intel, HP, Symantec, or any others.. HP certainly doesnt have ALL 350K employees in NorCal.. why would they need to?
HP is all to happy to have R&D in Colorado where its cheaper. And the natives in CO and state Govt are all to happy to have jobs in their state.

Come'on Thomas, don't you know by now, The Big Lie becoming the Real Truth? Say it often enough, and it is so. I think that was Goebbels' method (except in today's Cool and Hip "tech" parlance, "methodology", - it's so much hipper and cooler and smarter-sounding than "method").

"Tech" is companies like FB or google, or any other organization that involves only a cubicle and a workstation and internet hookup. Ya' know, "TECH". What you are talking about has icky poo stuff like chemistry, physics, materials, real stuff not "TECH". That's not tech, it's icky poo. You don't think so? Just ask any young hipster.

Remember, we have become a region of Greater Fools.

SFAce is right. You're just an old fart. Kevin is right. You haven't worked in "real" tech.

bmwman91 says

SFace says

What you think of fool is just economic reality.

I can agree with that.

Yes it is. The Reality that our region, by self-selection, is dominated by fools making their housing choices, - their economic choices, with the need for the Ever Greater Fool to come along. The Fool Reality. No wonder HP had a problem today.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Come'on Thomas, don't you know by now, The Big Lie becoming the Real Truth? Say it often enough, and it is so. I think that was Goebbels' method (except in today's Cool and Hip "tech" parlance, "methodology", - it's so much hipper and cooler and smarter than "method").

yes.. i understand. its all ichy poo..

I would add, that pop finance media is Our New Age Goebbels, naming stuff like Social Media as "TECH". Our good True Believer worker bees here in the region can't help it; they really don't know any better than did some of my Hitler Youth relative from Austria back in the day.

Yes, companies have offices in other locations. Welcome to 20 posts ago.

You completely miss the point. There is NO OTHER PLACE ON THIS PLANET where so many different companies cluster.

Companies can't just "go anywhere". It doesn't work. Offices spring up in places where they have a critical mass, but it doesn't correspond to anything particular about that area.

Companies that have distributed offices and are actually successful (HP no longer counts; they're incompetently managed and anything they do should be ignored) aren't doing cross-site collaboration. An office in boston might be doing one project while an office in tel aviv does another one.

Once again, outside of SV (and maybe NYC) you'll be lucky to find two or three good quality employers in any given city.

Kevin says

You completely miss the point. There is NO OTHER PLACE ON THIS PLANET where so many different companies cluster.

It no longer matters.. it was only true some 30+ years ago.. its no longer true.
We had 3x more employers and 3x more employed while salaries were more balaned as were the workers.. which included mfg, sales, eng, mrtk and g&a..

Besides, you have no say in the matter.. that is left for those in power... the Financial Analysis and Planning Group and Management who map out long term strategies..

What are you going to do.. maybe unionize and go on strike... because you feel

entitled to a big pay, big house, big lifestyle in SFBA...... good luck on that...

As BACAH has already put it so rightly .. welcome in the greater fools.

Hey Kevin, my jobs were "gone anywhere" lotsa times. Georgia (I think), East Fishkill, San Antonio, Njimegen, Portland, Taiwan, Japan, etc. Yes you are right, the "companies" maintained a facade here for the hipsters and office workers etc., though you might be surprised how many of the back office functions for professions like accountants and lawyers have also "gone anywhere" when the company still kept a shingle in the Bay region.

Just how long have you lived in this region and how many years of "tech" experience are you speaking from?

Kevin says

There is NO OTHER PLACE ON THIS PLANET where so many different companies cluster.

I dunno, there sure are a lot in Hsinchu Science Park. Oh yeah, I forgot. They only build icky poo manufacturing of "stuff" there; they don't do "tech".

Kevin says

outside of SV (and maybe NYC) you'll be lucky to find two or three good quality employers in any given city.

Really? What is your definition of a "good quality employer?"

B.A.C.A.H. says

They only build icky poo manufacturing of "stuff" there; they don't do "tech".

LOL! give me more icky poo anyday.. just love icky poo... you learn alot from icky poo..

So there is a really nice corporate housing complex near where I am living now. Mega nice hot tub and pool, and no locks on the gates. I am a regular visitor to those facilities haha. Anyway, when I was there tonight I was talking to a guy that is here visiting from CT. EE-turned-programmer. Since I was born and raised here, he asked me, "so I am sort of curious, why do they call it the silicon valley? All I really see here is software." So I explained the history of the place and how there is still some hardware here, but it really is just a software hub for the most part. There is still a semi-tech presence, but it is just a shell of what it used to be. Except for the insane industrial ground pollution that runs from San Jose to Menlo Park, that is still ever-present to remind us of the SV's "roots". I guess that this was his first visit here, and since it is "winter" here right now, he wants to move out here. Can't blame him, especially since he just went through Sandy.

I think that the "tech" industry in general has matured and is not really innovating at all like it used to. It all mostly looks like gimmicky new applications of existing/miniaturized technology with fancy software front-ends to get consumers to open their wallets. Granted, that stuff keeps my paychecks rolling, but I really cringe when I see the word "innovate" used in the media. Wake me up when we have a viable replacement for silicon computing and a readily available material with 10x the thermal conductivity of copper. That's not to say that there are not a lot of smart, talented people in the SFBA, but it is funny to see how many are under the illusion that they are revolutionizing the world or something. Bro, it's a phone that lets you snoop on your friends' lives 24/7, not a stable wormhole that instantly transports you anywhere you want while simultaneously curing cancer.

bmwman91 says

I really cringe when I see the word "innovate" used in the media.

because
B.A.C.A.H. says

pop finance media is Our New Age Goebbels

Godwin's Law looks like it might soon be in effect here lol.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Just how long have you lived in this region and how many years of "tech" experience are you speaking from?

15 years in the industry, 7 years in SV before I decided it wasn't worth trying to raise a family there.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Really? What is your definition of a "good quality employer?"

[Referring to tech companies] -- One that:

- Has a real future so you won't be getting laid off in a year anyway.
- Pays well
- Respects their employees

There are at least two dozen companies I can think of off the top of my head that are headquartered in SV that meet these qualifications. Other big cities have vassel offices of some subset of these companies, maybe.

If you're involved in just about any type of science and engineering (and are good at it), you can go to SV and have your pick of employers. Go to any other city and you'll be lucky to even be able to get interviews at more than two or three.

I see. A resident expert since 2005, Seven Years of Feast. thomas, bmwman and myself are lifers here. Local podunk kids. We have seen these cycles come and go. Through the years all those Who Rush In supporting local services by paying market rate property taxes directly ("homeowners") or indirectly (market rents), thank you very much. Good luck and enjoy.

Kevin says

[Referring to tech companies] -- One that:

- Has a real future so you won't be getting laid off in a year anyway.
- Pays well
- Respects their employees

A year is not much of a "real" future, - you think? Pays well is relative to the cost of living. Respects their employees, hmm. By that I suppose you mean, has domestic partner benefits. I grant you that, but I don't think the Bay Area is the only region outside of NYC with that kind of respecting of employees.

bmwman91 says

Godwin's Law looks like it might soon be in effect here lol.

I didn't know about Godwin's Law till I looked it up. Which part will be in effect?

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

While falling foul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility,

or

fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.

?

BACAH, this part.

"Godwin's law is an argument made by Mike Godwin in 1990 that has become an Internet adage. It states: 'As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.'"

I forgot that it can be plain-old Nazi references, not just ones to Hitler. Godwin's Law is in fact in effect! There's a politics section on a large BMW forum that I sometimes visit (now THERE'S a cesspool!)...Godwin seems to rule that place lol. It's fairly rare that I see Nazi references on Pnet, excluding A-Fuck's posts anyway. Neo-Nazi cannibal serial killers lol.

Anyway, I am not saying that the references are inaccurate. We ARE dealing with RE and the central bank, so as far as I am concerned those references are totally appropriate!

B.A.C.A.H. says

A year is not much of a "real" future, - you think?

o_O. I can't tell if you're just being obtuse or ...

Pays well is relative to the cost of living.

That's part of it.

There good tech companies in the valley pay 50% more than others. They're the ones where the competent people go (well, the ones who don't start their own business).

Respects their employees, hmm. By that I suppose you mean, has domestic partner benefits. I grant you that, but I don't think the Bay Area is the only region outside of NYC with that kind of respecting of employees.

No, I mean they:

- Let people work the hours that they want
- Treat people like adults when it comes to using building facilities
- Let people take vacations when they want
- Speaks openly and honestly about what's going on inside the company (products, finances, etc.)
- Has a transparent system for promotions / raises / bonus / equity
- Provides a top tier benefits package, even if it costs a bit more.

The vast majority of companies don't do most of these things.

In SV, a good engineer can choose from a dozen companies that fall into this group. In other big cities like ny, chicago, or seattle you might have two or three. In smaller cities you'll be lucky if there's a vassel office of one of the big ones.

Kevin,

You weren't here during the tech crash (or maybe you were, when did you leave?). If you think that there is job security in the number of tech companies, you are a little off. I was working a summer job at a Home Depot tool rental department at that time. 3 of the other 5 guys I worked with were VLSI designers from IBM. Another summer job was spent working in a warehouse for the county office of education. A couple of those guys were from a division of Lucent Tech that got shut down. The economy around here was D-E-A-D, empty storefronts and everything.

I am seeing and hearing all sorts of stuff now with Web 2.0 or whatever that is eerily familiar. Dozens of companies with no real business model and "the world's best talent" creating IPOs. It's the new NEW paradigm, man. In 1999 it was, "It's not about profits man, it's about finding investors!" In 2012 it is, "Well, it's about LOOKING profitable man, then using that to find investors! And changing the internet forever!!1"

The major players that make up the backbone of this place like Intel, (maybe) AMD, Cisco, NASA, Agilent, HP, Apple and (maybe) Google will probably still be here after the next correction, but you are crazy if you think that they mean guaranteed job security. You need to be damn good at your job as well as knowing how to play politics to make the right friends in management. It's very rare to be able to play politics while actually being good at your job, too. Maybe it WON'T crash again and web companies are humanity's future, I don't know. I doubt it, though. They are all 100% dependent on ad revenue, and ad revenue only exists when people have disposable time and money. Given the economic condition of our nation, I don't see disposable income increasing the way it needs to to sustain most of these companies.

bmwman, he's only been here since 2005, only seen his Seven Years of Feast. Maybe he's a Homeowner in a recent wave of Greater Fools who came in to take the place of former residents from former behemoths like IBM or Sun or Lockheed or pre-Second-Coming-of-Jobs Apple or whatever.

I worked in some of the places he probably would call inferior employers and some he'd probably call gilded. Much of what he attributes to being great companies is the culture of the region, as I have experienced most of what he wrote at what he would call the crappy employers, except maybe the gilded benefits part. Gotta be a Civil Servant for that. Thank goodness folks (Greater Fools) keep churning in here to keep the house prices and assessments high to make ever-higher property taxes to support or Civil Servants.