patrick.net

Call it Crazy says

Kevin says

but never saw a gun in person other than police officers until I was an adult. As a result, I only associated guns with murder and war.

So, because of YOUR FEARS about guns, everyone else should have THEIRS taken away.......

I'm glad to see that you didn't even read the first sentence. Fucking moron.

You know sentences don't end with commas, right?

Kevin says

I have zero desire to own a gun and even less to shoot somebody with one.

All of the gun owners I know have no desire to shoot somebody either. But if they are forced into a situation (e.g., home invasion, etc.) where they are put at risk, they are not adverse to drilling holes through an intruder.

I rarely go to gun ranges, but when I do, I've noticed there are a lot of well armed middle-aged Vietnamese. My assumption is that experiencing a complete societal breakdown (fall of Saigon) drives home the benefit of being able to protect your family. In the U.S. we had the equivalent with the Rodney King rights where the stores with Korean owners on the roofs with assault rifles didn't get looted.

The movie "Contagion" was, indirectly, really good advertising for gun ownership.

Kevin says

If we could raise a generation to not want to use guns, maybe we could prevent them from killing each other.

Sorry, I had a decent retort to this but I've been laughing too much to remember what it was.

Kevin says

As a result, I only associated guns with murder and war. Maybe we could replicate that experience to kids now and keep them from viewing guns as a tool that was used for solving every day conflict.

how about going after the gangs of thugs who kill everyday over their drug turff..

the people in the community, police and 2nd amendment backers (pro gun)
are behind that..

so .. who isnt interested in going after the gangsters who kill everyday ?

whats their excuse ?

http://wgntv.com/2013/01/09/chicago-shooting-victim-becomes-15th-homicide-of-2013/

Chicago shooting victim becomes 15th homicide of 2013

Read more at http://wgntv.com/2013/01/09/chicago-shooting-victim-becomes-15th-homicide-of-2013/#0z1qCGkgkV5eW7rR.99

Kevin says

The reason is 3d printers. I've now seen two very good proposals for how guns can be printed, and shells to go with it (ammo making still requires manual work to fill the shells)

Ummm. No. The build media is fairly weak plastic. Gun barrels and upper receivers are made of metal to withstand very high pressures. Could you maybe make some nonessential part like lower receiver, grip panels, stock, etc? Sure. Key components, hell no. You'd at best use a ton of plastic to make essentially a zipgun that would be greater danger to YOU in terms of blowing up in your face. I certainly wouldn't hold anything with a plastic barrel and action and fire it, I'd hope anyone who has tested such a thing did so by remote from behind a shield.

There's an article about claims about this, and I want you to note important BULLSHIT language in it:

"....Video posted by the group on YouTube indicates the gun was built with some key parts created on a 3-D printer and fired six times before it broke.

No independent observer verified the test."

http://www.montereyherald.com/local/ci_22249478/plastic-gun-made-3d-printer-and-test-fired

Now mind you a home-built CNC mill and some steel, you could probably build a decent one no problem. But that doesn't appeal the Star Trek vision of saying "Tea, Earl Grey, hot" does it? Too much getting ones hands dirty and BUILDING THINGS.

3d printers work with metal as well. I've seen very convincing tools built already, and a generation or two of technical development will certainly complete the task. Our grandchildren will be able to print guns on demand, no doubt about it. No plastics required.

That's why we should make them not desire to do so. Right now we have millions of people fantasizing about being able to kill a home invader who will most likely just wind up killing some poor bystander in a bar fight.

Let the gun toting nut bags who are afraid of people who they'll never encounter do whatever they want, meanwhile we change the culture so that we no longer believe that manslaughter is a reasonable outcome of a domestic dispute.

Call it Crazy says

Kevin says

You know sentences don't end with commas, right?

It's not a sentence, it's a piece of your quote.

What, now you're the grammar police too???

Like I said, you didn't read the first sentence. I have no interest in taking away your gun. I'm not afraid of firearms, buy I'm also not afraid of people who are a different race.

thomaswong.1986 says

so .. who isnt interested in going after the gangsters who kill everyday ?

Uh, nobody? Gangs are certainly a problem. Gangs exist due to poverty, though, and as a country we aren't interested in doing what is necessary to fight poverty in an effective way.

Jesus, you're completely misaligned (or possibly mis-educated, my bet is on the latter) if you think that guns are the sole reason people kill each other.

It's happened throughout recorded history. We're animals, first and foremost; I've had a cousin killed in a bar fight that included nothing more than a pool cue. The gas chambers at Auschwitz were a pretty quiet, non-violent affair as well.

I do agree on the 3D printing though. They are doing some fabulous things with metals nowadays. You're on the right track as far as that is concerned.

CMY says

Jesus, you're completely misaligned (or possibly mis-educated, my bet is on the latter) if you think that guns are the sole reason people kill each other.

Or perhaps you are drawing a very weird conclusion based on the actual content of the post. I can only assume that you simply have a rabid pro-gun stance and immediately viscerally reject anything you see that you vaguely disagree with using a set of canned contradictions.

No? Ok then. Maybe next time you actually think about what you're assuming.

CMY says

It's happened throughout recorded history. We're animals, first and foremost; I've had a cousin killed in a bar fight that included nothing more than a pool cue. The gas chambers at Auschwitz were a pretty quiet, non-violent affair as well.

Cool story bro. I know a guy who got beat to death with a toilet. WTF does that have to do with trying to change our culture to one that results in fewer people getting murdered?

Kevin says

I was raised around violent movies and video games

Dig Dug is not the same as "Grand theft auto".

I wonder how much better off America would be today had Tipper Gore.

A) Either got her way in those censorship hearings...
or
B) Never opened that can of worms to begin with.

Shit kicked into overdrive after she lit that puppy, and the ruling was in their favor to pollute the minds of our youth. It was because of those hearings, media(Games/Music/Movies) were educated that there are no lines to cross. It's all good, and every 11 year old prepubescent child was fair game to learn of the ways of the Pimps and Ho's and fluid dynamics of blood exiting the body. From every medium from games, music to movies.

Perhaps. But taking away guns or video games won't stop human impulses. They will just find another way. These critters/savage beasts will just find another way, if they didn't have guns. Violence is not uniquely American

http://www.youtube.com/embed/tgAoBaFT7EU

Or this critter/woman in FL who dragged her ex husband with a truck-no guns involved.
http://myfox8.com/2013/01/10/ex-wife-drags-man-behind-truck-in-florida/

I doubt the Afghan Tribes use their Playstations very much; the SS was around before Atari, even.

Video Games actually lower violence by keeping angry young men inside playing WoW, eating doritos and smoking weed, instead of standing near the bus stop harassing people, with knives and 40s in brown bags.

Did any of you people even read the post? I'm not suggesting taking away guns at all. Quite the opposite actually.

If the gun people can guarantee one of their idiotic guns won't shoot me, then they can have their guns.

Until then I say outlaw them. If you don't own a gun, guns are clearly not in your best interest. And if you do own a gun the facts show that your gun puts you in greater danger of becoming a victim.

So the logical conclusion is that guns should be outlawed.

THere is some dispute about whether this guy was in a gang.

thomaswong.1986 says

http://wgntv.com/2013/01/09/chicago-shooting-victim-becomes-15th-homicide-of-2013/

Chicago shooting victim becomes 15th homicide of 2013

Read more at http://wgntv.com/2013/01/09/chicago-shooting-victim-becomes-15th-homicide-of-2013/#0z1qCGkgkV5eW7rR.99

Call it Crazy says

So, because of YOUR FEARS about guns, everyone else should have THEIRS taken away.......

The exact same thing can be said about terrorism. So, because of YOUR FEARS about terrorism, everyone else's rights should be taken away...

I hope the pro-gun crowd realizes that the war on terror is a war on guns. Ordinary citizens like me are forced to go to a government agency and show photo ID so they can run background checks just to get the water in the house we rent/own put in our name. The justification? It's necessary to make sure that terrorists don't open a water utility account. If background checks and registration are done for water utilities, then they will be done for guns as well.

You can't give Big Brother everything he wants in the name of the war on terror without giving he the same damn powers over gun ownership. Just remember that the next time that your Congresman does something in the name of the war on terror.

Call it Crazy says

Are you going to include the police, military, FBI, private guards and secret service in this outlaw too??

I'd vote for that!

Kevin says

The reason is 3d printers.

I suspect that when the masses can get 3D printers capable of printing more than cheap plaster, lobbyists for transnational corporations will get Congress to pass Fabrication Rights Management laws and FRM will be built into every device.

Too bad, because I'd love to print myself out a nice Scorpion. I like it even more than my sniper rifle.

Dan8267 says

Kevin says

The reason is 3d printers.

I suspect that when the masses can get 3D printers capable of printing more than cheap plaster, lobbyists for transnational corporations will get Congress to pass Fabrication Rights Management laws and FRM will be built into every device.

Too bad, because I'd love to print myself out a nice Scorpion. I like it even more than my sniper rifle.

It'll work about as well as DRM.

It will be easier to change a culture than stop a technology. Any engineer worth half a lick will be able to work around any FRM.

Kevin says

It will be easier to change a culture than stop a technology. Any engineer worth half a lick will be able to work around any FRM.

Sure, but the government will enforce FRM like they enforce anti-marijuana laws, and for the exact same reason: corporate profits.

Kevin says

3d printers work with metal as well. I've seen very convincing tools built already, and a generation or two of technical development will certainly complete the task. Our grandchildren will be able to print guns on demand, no doubt about it. No plastics required.

I'm guessing you don't have an engineering background and/or don't understand 3D printer technology.

Current 3D printers could be used to make a form for casting a metal object, but generating components from high strength materials using 3D printing techniques is a loooong way off.

And as others have mentioned, there are already plenty of CNC machining tools around that could be used to manufacture parts to assemble a gun.

But more to the point, I could assemble a zip-gun out of materials purchased for less than $20 at Home Depot. No fancy 3D printers required.

There's a certain level of paranoia in our culture - whether it be a feeling that one needs a gun to deter the would be robbers, fears of getting kidnapped while traveling abroad, fear that realtors flleece you, etc. To a certain extent, it comes from media. Most stories on local news tend to revolve around criminal activities and victims of shootings. 80% of coverage of mexico is about drug violence, beheadings so when someone goes to vacation there the neighbors illogically assume that something is gonna happen to the tourist even though it's obviously not the case. This overall level of paranoia is definitely unhealthy and can lead to one living their life looking over their shoulder due to exagerrated sense of danger that is false statistically wise.

I always hear this argument brought up how banning guns is useless because those that want them will just make them. Why doesn't this logic extend to other weapons? Bombs, missiles, lasers, crossbow? I can walk into Harbor Freight with a coupon and walk out with a 18" machete for $3.99 that will seriously mess someone up or kill them.

So why do people go through the trouble of using more expensive guns? IMHO its because guns are one of the most effective killing machines ever developed. Anyone who says guns weren't meant to kill is delusional.

Here in town we just had 2 guys walking down the street with assault rifles on their backs. 911 was called, but police said they have valid carry permits, so nothing they can do. The 2 guys were from a more rural part of the state, up here in the city 'making a point' about guns.

Not sure what point they are trying to make. "Look we can walk around in public with devices that could kill any one of you from 300 yards away." or maybe it was "Look at me, I have a gun but I'm not killing anyone.. yet."

Anyone who feels the need to do that is mentally unstable. If I saw two strange guys with assault weapons coming towards my yard, I'd ask them to lie down on the ground and wait for police. If they so much as twitched, I'd drop them where they stood and never regret it.

Is that what we want as a society?

Guns are the most lethal self defense tool you can get. Bombs aren't self defense tools. Knives aren't a deterrent for a gun wielding assailant.

Yes I have a background in engineering. There are 3d printers today that can print 'metal' directly. We can't yet print anything suitable for a firearm at reasonable cost, but very high end equipment can produce parts suitable for apace shuttles. Its only a matter of time.

I say we have two generations to change our culture.

Actually it was a good advertisement for the CDC to encourage people to get vaccinated

ducsingle5313 says

The movie "Contagion" was, indirectly, really good advertising for gun ownership.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

But my wife likes laying down a few bursts of automatic weapons fire over the driveway in the morning to help get to my car safely. Why do you hate safety?

Keep him dumb.

We need the cockroach sheep to believe that the police will be there to prevent another mass murder instead of cleaning up the chunks of flesh, pus, blood and the rotting dead.

gbenson says

If I saw two strange guys with assault weapons coming towards my yard, I'd ask them to lie down on the ground and wait for police. If they so much as twitched, I'd drop them where they stood and never regret it.

I think you would regret it every time you were ass-raped in prison after being prosecuted and sentenced for murder or manslaughter (depending on the jurisdiction).

MMR says

Actually it was a good advertisement for the CDC to encourage people to get vaccinated

Vaccinated against a disease for which no vaccination exists?

Gun control seems to work quite well to reduce gun deaths in other countries.

You know, out there, in the world.

Kevin says

The reason is 3d printers.

I would think the high capacity clips would be the first things printed.

"Gun control seems to work quite well to reduce gun deaths in other countries. You know, out there, in the world. "

Yes and then crime rates for other violent crimes go thru the roof.

A woman in Australia is now almost three times more likely to be raped than one in the US.

The fact is that this country is split in two - there are those who look to the State as a religious entity capable of providing all the security and safety they could ever desire, and there are those who believe in personal responsibility.

Unfortunately for those whose faith is placed in the State, that seldom works out so well - over 200 million murdered by their own govts over the last century. When I live in Russia I saw the end result of what happens when your govt murders tens of millions of their own citizens.

And with the NDAA, the Patriot Act, the ongoing murder of children and now American citizens in govt sanctioned drone attacks, a individual citizen would have to be mostly delusional to believe that the govt had any interest in their personal safety.

Kevin, you're sleepwalking on a high wire without a net - you seriously need to wake up man - the world does NOT work the way you think it does. And by the time you figure that out it's going to be far too late.

This thread is a sad commentary on the reading comprehension abilities of pat.net readers.

thunderlips11 says

Video Games actually lower violence by keeping angry young men inside playing WoW, eating doritos and smoking weed, instead of standing near the bus stop harassing people, with knives and 40s in brown bags.

Well I have seen first hand kids graduate from Guitar hero controllers to real guitars and drum sets. I'm sure the same holds true for shoot em up action games.

CaptainShuddup says

Well I have seen first hand kids graduate from Guitar hero controllers to real guitars and drum sets. I'm sure the same holds true for shoot em up action games.

Yes, I remember a time before Guitar hero when kids never picked-up and learned guitars and/or drums; just like before first-person shooters no one did any spree killing.

zzyzzx says

Kevin says

The reason is 3d printers.

I would think the high capacity clips would be the first things printed.

Yep, along with receivers to bypass integral magazines and with modifications to allow full-auto fire.

ducsingle5313 says

I think you would regret it every time you were ass-raped in prison after being prosecuted and sentenced for murder or manslaughter (depending on the jurisdiction).

Actually, no. As a followup I read in the paper that the local police have had special training to deal with this guy. Training that us citizens haven't received. Find me a jury of your peers in the current climate that would convict a guy of defending his family against 2 guys with Bushmasters.

You wouldn't need a jury because the guy would be dead. If two guys with assault rifles show up the best you'll do is kill one of them.

I don't understand these murder fantasies. You have to be a psychopath to spend so much for time thinking up situations where you'll be able to legally kill another person.

Kevin says

I don't understand these murder fantasies. You have to be a psychopath to spend so much for time thinking up situations where you'll be able to legally kill another person.

I don't think that I would classify them all at "murder" fantasies. I think that they are probably a lot more action hero fantasies, with killing as a side dish. That said if someone is going to be carrying a weapon they need to first know how to effectively use it and second understand when using it is OK.

As with any type of training thinking, visualizing and planning what to do beforehand helps to avoid mistakes in a high pressure, no time to think, moment.

I don't think that this makes people who carry a gun all psychopaths.

gbenson says

Find me a jury of your peers in the current climate that would convict a guy of defending his family against 2 guys with Bushmasters.

You should take some time to study the law before you do something really stupid.

According to your original post, the guys with Bushmasters aren't doing anything illegal under your local laws. So your local populace has decided that merely carrying a firearm openly shouldn't be considered threatening. Consequently, by your local standards, you have no reason to perceive their actions as threatening and no right to self defense.

If you pointed a gun at them and ordered them to lie down, that would constitute assault with a deadly weapon: a threat to inflict offensive bodily harm on a person that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact. And those two Bushmaster toting gentlemen would probably be entitled to defend themselves against your assault by dropping you in a fiery hail of bullets in front of your wife and kids.

And per Kevin's post, you would be pretty dumb to confront two guys armed with Bushmasters, unless you have a death wish.