patrick.net

theoakman says

feeder school where 30% of the kids go to Princeton. These kids pick up a $150 restaurant tab with their allowance. After listening to their conversations for about 2 minutes, I know my asian students would bury them intellectually and academically. But these privileged kids will be the ones graduating from an Ivy

The reason for that has a lot to do with their dads being Lloyd Blankfein or John Kerry types. The feeder school is merely the gathering grounds of those offsprings. And thus, they get their CVs polished, looking good, so that the admissions ppl at the Ivies admit them, w/o too much debate. And then, those same Ivies will admit the perfect Asian applicant with the best possible numbers, so that when averaged in with John Kerry Jr, Gore the III, Bush the IV, or Rockefeller the V, that the elite school average comes out looking good.

thunderlips11 says

Jesus, I know SUNY is/was a great STEM School. Another sign of incredible inequity in our society.

IMHO, in the northeast corridor, no eastern state school is considered prestigious by the management consulting and/or investment banking types.

At best, Univ of Virginia (mostly due to law/business) and Georgia Tech (though mainly due to Silicon Valley [and not Wall St]) are the only two prestigious east coast public schools. The others are considered consolation prizes for those who didn't either gain admissions or get the good scholarship packages to the private schools. BTW, no one cares about the Univ of North Carolina/Chapel Hill outside of pure academia and those who live in the south.

Man, I can't wait for the revolution and tax those fuckers 20% and 2% like the commission it is.

You're alright Rin, we'll come up with a loophole for ya.

thunderlips11 says

Man, I can't wait for the revolution and tax those fuckers 20% and 2% like the commission it is.

Thunderlips, I'm getting a sense that you've fully acknowledged all my arguments. Wow, the world has changed since my childhood. Much of the above would have been considered impolite, if I'd said it back in those years.

thunderlips11 says

You're alright Rin, we'll come up with a loophole for ya.

I'm going to retire to Australia, with legal brothels, using my eggsnest, so I'll be out of the system.

thunderlips11 says

What's the deal with SUNY Stony Brook? I know there's a lot of Foreign Profs there that don't speak English.

academically it has a good reputation and to improve the prestige factor, they have actually stopped calling themselves a SUNY school, although technically they are still part of the SUNY system. This is what I gathered from talking to several students who went to Stony Brook. The same people also told me how tough the school is academically in the sciences. It is a top-notch research university but still not really considered a 'public ivy' although that appears to be a goal of the university moving forward

Rin says

The reason for that has a lot to do with their dads being Lloyd Blankfein or John Kerry types. The feeder school is merely the gathering grounds of those offsprings. And thus, they get their CVs polished, looking good, so that the admissions ppl at the Ivies admit them, w/o too much debate. And then, those same Ivies will admit the perfect Asian applicant with the best possible numbers, so that when averaged in with John Kerry Jr, Gore the III, Bush the IV, or Rockefeller the V, that the elite school average comes out looking good.

I switched districts, but the past few years, my classes were 60% asian. I probably had the best non-magnet student body in the state. I would always send 2 to Princeton. Usually, they had to be the top student in the state on some level along with being a world class violinist or clarinetist. Ironically, I had another girl who was white and ranked #2 in the class behind an asian prodigy who had a legitimate claim to top student in the nation. He was in the top 20 in the country for high school students in bio, physics, and math by age 14. Both of her parents went to Princeton and she was rejected.

theoakman says

I do agree. I live 2 blocks from a feeder school where 30% of the kids go to Princeton

The private schools might be Princeton Day School, Lawrenceville school, Hun School .....Public schools might be West Windsor/Plainsboro or Montgomery Twp HS....Out of those schools, West Windsor/Plainsboro (North and South) are the Asian Joe bloggs school. I have relatives there (Plainsboro) and their kids went there with the daughter who graduated from Cooper Union with a STEM major (civil) and volunteered for a STEM non-profit to get underserved minorities into
STEM by feeding them BS.

http://iridescentlearning.org/

theoakman says

I know my asian students would bury them intellectually and academically.

Academically yes, Intellectually, that's debatable. Lot of those guys have no exposure to the world outside of their bubble. That's why their college applications consist of essays about similar cookie cutter topics:

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-21/princeton-review-tells-asians-to-act-less-asian-and-black-students-to-attach-photos

From article: outlining ways candidates such as these can play down their Asianness, including advising against application essays that discuss how their culture affects their lives. “These are Asian Joe Bloggs topics, and they are incredibly popular.”

MMR says

academically it has a good reputation and to improve the prestige factor, they have actually stopped calling themselves a SUNY school, although technically they are still part of the SUNY system. This is what I gathered from talking to several students who went to Stony Brook. The same people also told me how tough the school is academically in the sciences. It is a top-notch research university but still not really considered a 'public ivy' although that appears to be a goal of the university moving forward

There are a number of tough, state university science and engineering programs out there. But yet, most state unis are not in the prestige game. The reason for that is that the age of STEM prestige is over, the exceptions being Carnegie-Mellon, CalTech, MIT, and Stanford. The last state unis to win at that card match was Virginia, with law/business, and Georgia Tech, with high SV placements. Even the vaunted Univ of Illinois/UC, is slowly becoming a forgotten wheat field oasis, despite being the next best hard core engineering school to MIT, because it's never been able to sell its law/business offerings and build a non-middle-of-nowhere culture to the outside world.

What Stony Brook needs to do is to merge degrees with NYU and become their suburban campus but then, work out a deal with the state to maintain the in-state tuition for NY residents. With that, the rich idiots will stay in the Greenwich Village/NYC campus, while the smarter ones (see Stuy, Bronx Science, etc), will be on the Stony Brook campus, doing good work, while earning a degree which says, New York University: Long Island Institute of Tech. And then, you won't have this issue because the resume will read

B.S. Accounting and Applied Math
New York University, LIIT scholars

The above looks a lot better than posting the name of one's high school. Plus, over time, LIIT scholars will clearly start to make waves in the business world, including accounting, finance, consulting, etc. A lot of that will have to do with the other smart NYers, not just the Stuy/Joe Asian bloggs, attending that place and building credentials on academic merit, versus attending Fordham, Manhattan College, etc, on full scholarships.

Rin says

no eastern state school is considered prestigious by the management consulting and/or investment banking types.

I always thought it was Harvard, Yale, MIT, Columbia, UPenn, UChicago, Northwestern and Stanford. Are any public schools seen as prestigious to management consulting/ banking types?

MMR says

Rin says

no eastern state school is considered prestigious by the management consulting and/or investment banking types.

I always thought it was Harvard, Yale, MIT, Columbia, UPenn, UChicago, Northwestern and Stanford. Are any public schools seen as prestigious to management consulting/ banking types?

It's still 'ok' to attend Virginia, Michigan, UC/Berkeley, and I think some oddball places like William & Mary.

theoakman says

Usually, they had to be the top student in the state on some level along with being a world class violinist or clarinetist. Ironically, I had another girl who was white and ranked #2 in the class behind an asian prodigy who had a legitimate claim to top student in the nation.

I'm still trying to understand why these particular kids went to HS at all?

I know that if they lived within commuting distance of Cambridge MA, both of 'em could have attended the Extension program at Harvard and gotten a bachelor's degree by the age of 17/18, graduating with a high undergrad GPA, and then, started upon a graduate program at Harvard, MIT, Yale, Oxbridge, or any other school.

Rin says

both of 'em could have attended the Extension program at Harvard

And honestly, I don't see why every Asian upstart wants to attend the daytime Harvard College. Remember, Al Gore had attended and he's an idiot, though a son of a senator.

Rin says

On the other hand, an American can get Precalculus, Calculus I to III, Statistics, Micro and Macroeconomics, all done, by the age of 16, using free online courses plus community or local state colleges to verify the credentials. Basically, you first learn the material online but then, take the community college course to get the 'A' and the academic credit.

In this scenario, the student would essentially get a GED, then do these free online courses to learn the material then get the easy 'A' by taking the same courses at a local community college? Is that correct?

MMR says

Rin says

On the other hand, an American can get Precalculus, Calculus I to III, Statistics, Micro and Macroeconomics, all done, by the age of 16, using free online courses plus community or local state colleges to verify the credentials. Basically, you first learn the material online but then, take the community college course to get the 'A' and the academic credit.

In this scenario, the student would essentially get a GED, then do these free online courses to learn the material then get the easy 'A' by taking the same courses at a local community college? Is that correct?

That's the essential idea.

Basically, the notion is to get the equivalent of an associates degree, with straight A's, prior to applying to London's second year, since London expects its entrants to be 17 years of age. Also, if you want to do their Economics/Math combination, I'd also recommend studying econometrics, discrete math, and some game theory, prior to attending.

Also, this is an effective premed strategy as well, because the guys who make up the stateside AMCAS, don't average in the foreign grades in the final composite overall undergraduate or science GPAs. So the way this works is that one's UGPA will be a 3.9-4.0. But then, from London, the grade spread may be 8 courses, 5 first class and then, the next, 3 second class, making the student an honours first graduate because of the 5 > 3. AMCAS will not factor in the fact that this is a 3.6 composite GPA.

Since I'd taken the MCAT myself, I'd done a 34 back in the year. I'm pretty sure that if I dedicated my entire life to it, I could have scored over a 35, perhaps even a lofty 38.

So what happens is this ... my hypothetical application to the US medical schools would look like this, 3.95 UGPA, 37 MCAT, London Honours graduate. Provided that I did the right activities ... mentoring kids, writing for some publication, coaching basketball, etc, I'd have a very solid application to every single US medical school because one, I wouldn't have the "engineering nerd" label (kiss of death), two, my school would be London and that would make me among the ~5 of so American nationals, applying from that place, over let's say 10,000 from the various state unis across America.

And then, when let's say Washington Univ or Johns Hopkins gets to publish their student roster, they get to show London as one of their schools, so that they have that international elite spread but of course, not revealing that one of the kids is an American and the other, Tony Blair's cousin who'd managed the NHS registry process, since US medical schools are restricted in selecting foreign students. The other 4 Americans, if they were applying from London, would most likely not have the 3.9 *masked* community college GPA and 35+ MCAT and thus, wouldn't be in my category. Most likely, many of them would be from a postbacc US program with MCATs between 29 and 33 and ordinary GPAs. I would be the ex-pat Ivy Leaguer.

MMR says

The private schools might be Princeton Day School, Lawrenceville school, Hun School .....Public schools might be West Windsor/Plainsboro or Montgomery Twp HS....Out of those schools, West Windsor/Plainsboro (North and South) are the Asian Joe bloggs school. I have relatives there (Plainsboro) and their kids went there with the daughter who graduated from Cooper Union with a STEM major (civil) and volunteered for a STEM non-profit to get underserved minorities into

STEM by feeding them BS.

http://iridescentlearning.org/

I live near Lawrenceville school. I used to live in West Windsor and am very familiar with the district but that's not the district I taught at. I don't teach near my home as the salaries are a lot larger as you go North. But the point taken, West Windsor's demographics and performance were a lot like the district I taught in on many levels.

MMR says

Academically yes, Intellectually, that's debatable. Lot of those guys have no exposure to the world outside of their bubble. That's why their college applications consist of essays about similar cookie cutter topics:

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-21/princeton-review-tells-asians-to-act-less-asian-and-black-students-to-attach-photos

From article: outlining ways candidates such as these can play down their Asianness, including advising against application essays that discuss how their culture affects their lives. “These are Asian Joe Bloggs topics, and they are incredibly popular.”

Nope, not true. Intellectually same deal. I taught in a town where nearly all the kid's parents are CEOs and VPs in the major NJ companies. The asians in that town were very well to do and often were traveling the world and volunteering in various countries.

Rin says

I'm still trying to understand why these particular kids went to HS at all?

I know that if they lived within commuting distance of Cambridge MA, both of 'em could have attended the Extension program at Harvard and gotten a bachelor's degree by the age of 17/18, graduating with a high undergrad GPA, and then, started upon a graduate program at Harvard, MIT, Yale, Oxbridge, or any other school.

The kid was taking AP Mechanics C and Calc 2 by 8th grade. He could have been in college. He chose to stay around his friends a live a normal life. He's now at Harvard.

theoakman says

The kid was taking AP Mechanics C and Calc 2 by 8th grade. He could have been in college. He chose to stay around his friends a live a normal life. He's now at Harvard.

You're missing the point. The fact that the kid won the coin toss, and got to study with a future Al Gore (basically, a stupid son of a senator), doesn't justify the situation. It's also very likely that the kid could have been dinged, as admissions there is very dicey and not clear cut, as in my London University example.

I knew another gal, who was fluent in 5 languages, and got rejected by Harvard. She'd attended Wharton undergrad and later went onto management consulting. I'm guessing that she'd went to Harvard business school, to seal the deal later on. For the entire time she was in HS, she was under constant, yes, read, constant stress.

In my scenario, a person like myself, would have a ton of free time to pursue my own private interests, during the years 12 to 17, instead of playing the admissions game. And then, by 19, I'd have a full college degree, ready to do whatever I wanted.

theoakman says

But the point taken, West Windsor's demographics and performance were a lot like the district I taught in on many levels.

Most of those guys aren't what I'd call intellectual. Also, as Rin noted, those guys all apply to the same schools at the same time with cookie-cutter applications. Intellectuals, to some extent should be able to think for themselves.

If asians as a group were intellectually curious, why would princeton review be telling asian applicants to 'act less asian'
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-11-21/princeton-review-tells-asians-to-act-less-asian-and-black-students-to-attach-photos

That phenomenon is also described here, specifically a bunch of cookie cutter asians are getting coached on overcoming racial bias (pretty ridiculous idea):

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html

: says

The asians in that town were very well to do and often were traveling the world and volunteering in various countries.

What percentage of your town is Asians (East and South)? Also, why do people need to travel to foreign countries to do public service when there are plenty of opportunities to volunteer in 3rd world parts of the United States?

This guy talks about that phenomenon in the following article in the context of Ivy League Admissions.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

theoakman says

Both of her parents went to Princeton and she was rejected.

What do her parents do for a living? How connected are they to Princeton in terms of Alumni Giving. The legacy applicants is about 45% more likely to get in than a non-legacy applicant, but far from a slam dunk. Also it would be interesting to see what her personal statement was about.

I have a two first cousins once removed, both from two doctor households who are at Brown in the BA/MD program. One was a legacy and the other wasnt. The legacy has parents who are pretty high up at NIH but they have maintained their contacts although I doubt they can offer much in terms of alumni giving, coupled with the kid in question being a top student in Montgomery County, MD.

http://www.businessinsider.com/legacy-kids-have-an-admissions-advantage-2013-6

theoakman says

I don't teach near my home as the salaries are a lot larger as you go North.

Bergen County has 10 communities with over 25% Asians but most are Korean and I doubt most of them are Execs. Livingston maybe.

The only place north of there with demographics comparable to West Windsor/Plainsboro might be Parsippany, which is 29% Asian and 17% Indian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsippany-Troy_Hills,_New_Jersey

I doubt there are many places with as high an Asian concentration (particularly Indians) as Plainsboro, which is 46.22% Asian and 29% Indian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plainsboro_Township,_New_Jersey#Demographicstheoakman says

I taught in a town where nearly all the kid's parents are CEOs and VPs in the major NJ companies

Most of the people in Plainsboro are professionals, usually IT but some (a small few) are CEO or VPs. I have a cousin from South Brunswick who is a director at a major Healthcare firm in NJ, but he is one of the few with such a title in his professionally dominated neighborhood. Upper middle class, middle management types are the norm here with some doctors. But mostly rank and file IT workers. The private schools maybe different though.

Having said that, most of the kids are overscheduled with garbage to look good on a college application. After all these years, a high percentage are still oblivious to the fact that Ivy League wants people who are really good at school, standardized exams and world class for age in one or two things, as opposed to the 'well rounded' applicant. The chinese children of tiger moms seem to like piano or violin for this purpose, but when a high percentage of classmates from the same school are doing it, it actually takes away from the candidates uniqueness.

Not true, most of the Asian kids in your school could probably do it because they have parents on their ass to make sure the work gets done. About 40% of students who go into medicine the conventional way know that they want to be doctors by the age of 13; Ironically by mid-career about 50% of doctors wish they did something else. The asians wont do it because it would require them to trust their kids at home alone while both parents are at work, and it would invalidate the decision of spending big money on a home just to live in a top-notch school district.

Finally, most of these geeks grew up having playdates. How can anyone be intellectually stimulated by doing things in a robotic manner.

http://georgedpcarlin.blogspot.com/2012/07/george-carlin-on-children.htmltheoakman says

The kid was taking AP Mechanics C and Calc 2 by 8th grade. He could have been in college. He chose to stay around his friends a live a normal life. He's now at Harvard.

How much do you think his teachers are helping him in learning the material, even in a top-notch school district? Is this a kid who doesn't know what he wants? Pretty sure it is the kid and the parents who deserve most of the credit here. I would say that applies to 100% of the Asians who manage to make it to top 25 schools. In my lifetime, not a single Indian or Asian kid I ever spoke to in my life attributed their success to guidance received from a teacher or guidance counselor. Rather, they attribute it to themselves and their family, not necessarily in that order.

Maybe the only exception I could possibly think of is those kids who enter the Intel talent search or Westinghouse. But even those kids often have a lot of parental supervision. But not a teacher of any AP class. The asian kids enrolled in such classes would get a 4 or 5 with or without the teacher.

The latter is good preparation for sciences in college, where there is virtually no teaching and a lot of DIY. This, in turn, is good preparation for standardized tests such as the MCAT and medical school, as well as the USMLE exams.

But any kid from your school who goes on to be a doctor, could pretty much do it on their own without the structure of a school(because they have at least from 9th grade on). I would say that most people in medical school believe that to be true about themselves, and I'm no exception.

I would further venture to say that for the Asians pursuing cookie cutter activities, the Jeremy Lin model might be a better strategy for an asian to get an Ivy League admission than playing violin (since so many asians appear to do this).

But the Rin model is one of the best things for other students because it provides flexibility to learn and pursue other activities to boost one's chances at a top institution. The thing that sucks most about school learning in a classroom is the fact that it consumes so much of the day and makes it difficult to achieve the repetition necessary to kill standardized exams, especially for anyone with ADD or ADHD, without medication.

Mainly, for self-starters, it is a gigantic waste of time. Even for working parents of these high achievers, I am inclined to believe that they like the baby-sitting aspect of school as much as they believe that 'school is important.'

Most of those parents believe 'school is important' because it is 'school' specifically, excelling at school that is important, because of the end game, which is college admissions and the ability to excel in college. But even they recognize primarily that it is the effort of the kid/parent coupled with sacrifice that leads to success, not the 'inspiration' of the teacher. Most of all, the parents believe 'school is important' because they have been brainwashed to believe that 'school matters' their whole lives.

Mark Twain had it correct when he said, don't let school get in the way of your education......At least for those who are self-starters with good support systems in place.

MMR says

The asians in that town were very well to do and often were traveling the world and volunteering in various countries

What is so intellectual about imitating what your neighbor is doing just because you think it might give you a leg up in the college admissions game? Lets not even get started on the faux humanitarianism of the 'do well by doing good' ethos.

It seems like if the students and their families were asking themselves the questions I'm asking you, they would be able to frame a kick-ass resume that wasn't cookie cutter. The fact that they can't do it despite high standardized test scores shows a lack of imagination/intellectual deficit. Unfortunately those CEOs and VPs don't have the philanthropic firepower to compete with Kennedys, Bushes, Kerrys and Gores of the world. Doing things as a knee jerk reaction because your neighbor is doing it (keeping up with joneses) is the antithesis of 'being intellectual'.

On a closing note, I don't know a single person from Plainsboro who reads because they 'enjoy reading' They read to 'get the grade'. Most of those people don't own any books other than textbooks, for the most part. Unfortunately, most people I met who are doctors or classmates are the exact same way. Even in my large extended family with over 40 doctors, less than 5% read for the sake of reading and what they do read outside of professional journals is fluff or watch fluff news like Fox or CNN.

Basically, the notion is to get the equivalent of an associates degree, with straight A's, prior to applying to London's second year, since London expects its entrants to be 17 years of age. Also, if you want to do their Economics/Math combination, I'd also recommend studying econometrics, discrete math, and some game theory, prior to attending.

I haven't studied the curricula of many 2 year colleges...I'm sure the latter 3 courses are available online, but how much of a challenge would it be to find a community college offering econometrics, discrete structures and game theory.

How might you structure a curriculum for a person who is homeschooled and on this track, particularly with the academic requirements required of most high schools(i.e algebra, trig, pre-calc geometry and other science courses)? Essentially, if one is on this track, they would not be eligible to take AP courses.

In this scenario, would it make sense to take CLEP courses? What courses would make the most sense to CLEP out of?

If applying to US institutions after obtaining degree at age 19, would it be at the masters level or for someone who wanted to pursue med school?

thunderlips11 says

Me too. I spent my Senior Year taking Shop classes just to fill the schedule. I didn't know, and the dumbass Guidance Counselor didn't mention, that I could have taken Comm College Courses for free. All I needed was a P/E and English Credit by the end of my Junior Year. Could have banged out English Comp 101 and taken a Swim Class, along with 4-5 other courses and gone in to school bypassing my Freshman Year.

You could have banged out a lot more than that if you had taken CLEP tests. Like 2 years or more of credits including all the bullshit core curriculum if you can come up to speed on the subject matter reading the textbooks. I took a bunch of them. You can start CLEP at age 13 if I remember correctly.

I wonder why RIN is so fixated on online courses but never mentions CLEP, which is actually more widely accepted.

MMR says

In this scenario, would it make sense to take CLEP courses? What courses would make the most sense to CLEP out of?

I believe CLEP is mainly used to gain credit for a US college. It doesn't have the same function as getting an 'A' in that class from a community college or local state uni. One needs a college transcript sent over to the UK to be able to enter as a sophomore, which is really a junior by our standard.

MMR says

How connected are they to Princeton in terms of Alumni Giving.

It's very likely that they were non-donors. And from what I'd heard, elite schools won't make that *mistake* for a second generation. Thus, there are two kinds of legacies, ones who're already members of the administration or faculty and the others, well off alumni who give back to the alma mater in some fashion. In the Boston area, there's a private high school, BBN, which is right next to Harvard's main campus. They have an extraordinary placement rate to Harvard College because many of those kids have parents on the staff. One of my friends was almost fooled by this and thought that it was merit until he'd spoken to some of those admitted to the Big H and discovered that these weren't just ordinary ppl, who'd posted the BBN tuition. So yes, if you're not staff, you'd better be a cousin of Al Gore or Natalie Portman.

MMR says

I haven't studied the curricula of many 2 year colleges...I'm sure the latter 3 courses are available online, but how much of a challenge would it be to find a community college offering econometrics, discrete structures and game theory.

How might you structure a curriculum for a person who is homeschooled and on this track, particularly with the academic requirements required of most high schools(i.e algebra, trig, pre-calc geometry and other science courses)? Essentially, if one is on this track, they would not be eligible to take AP courses.

You're thinking too much, in terms of structure. You don't need to follow around, someone else's blueprint on how to learn stuff. Starting at the age of 12, start to learn the 1st few chapters of the general biology, intro to chemistry (valences, etc), but focus more intently on getting the math series, spanning algebra, geometry, trig, pre-calc, and calculus. And yes, keep adding periodic chapters in the biology/chemistry sections. As for the econometrics, etc, there are streaming state uni classes, which one can do as a special student if you want the academic credit.

For instance ...

http://www.online.colostate.edu/courses/ECON/ECON335.dot?Term=Summer%202015

Also, since you can get the credit for Econometrics at London directly, you just need to study the free material online on the net.

And as far as I'm concerned AP is overrated. It's a feel good but meaningless prize for those who believe in the HS system, when taking Differential Equations online at the age of 16, trumps AP Calculus by a mile.

MMR says

The chinese children of tiger moms seem to like piano or violin for this purpose, but when a high percentage of classmates from the same school are doing it, it actually takes away from the candidates uniqueness.

Nice skewer on the Tiger Mom. I've even tried to encourage one to let her kids learn jazz guitar over the violin because one, they may actually enjoy themselves, and make some interesting friends. But no, it's all classical music for her. I'll bet you in the future, those kids will end up hating music.

MMR says

If applying to US institutions after obtaining degree at age 19, would it be at the masters level or for someone who wanted to pursue med school?

At this point, it's really up to the individual's career path. You know that the premed reqs are only some 8 classes and many of those could have been done before London.

As for someone, let's say more interested in the monied fields, they may get that MS in accounting, at night, and get internships as an auditor. Or someone else, some sort of analytics jobs, using computers, etc, for a financial or research firm, with the hope of later applying for an MBA at Columbia, Wharton, etc. And sure, one can also do a masters in statistics or applied math from a name school like Columbia or Chicago, if they want to attempt some quant-like path. Banks do actively recruit candidates from those places.

The difference here is that when the person is 22, while the rest of the middle classers are begging to break into these areas, this individual would have logged 2-3 years work experience with a London degree.

Rin says

I'll bet you in the future, those kids will end up hating music.

BTW, I have a small casualty toll on this one.

One Asian-American gal, who was forced to do marching band
Another, classical piano
And a third, cello

Today, they're all in the 20s and 30s and don't like "real" music, neither classical, opera, jazz, nor classic rock. At best, they listen to that mind numbing clubbing music just to forget about their day. If anything, I couldn't think of a worse fate for anyone because music is truly one of humanity's greatest past times.

Rin says

MMR says

In this scenario, would it make sense to take CLEP courses? What courses would make the most sense to CLEP out of?

I believe CLEP is mainly used to gain credit for a US college. It doesn't have the same function as getting an 'A' in that class from a community college or local state uni. One needs a college transcript sent over to the UK to be able to enter as a sophomore, which is really a junior by our standard.

They are not mutually exclusive. Clep's go on your college transcript as credit for the class passed just like transfer credits. There is no reason in the world not to Clep out of everything you can and take classes for what you can't.

bob2356 says

Rin says

MMR says

In this scenario, would it make sense to take CLEP courses? What courses would make the most sense to CLEP out of?

I believe CLEP is mainly used to gain credit for a US college. It doesn't have the same function as getting an 'A' in that class from a community college or local state uni. One needs a college transcript sent over to the UK to be able to enter as a sophomore, which is really a junior by our standard.

They are not mutually exclusive. Clep's go on your college transcript as credit for the class passed just like transfer credits. There is no reason in the world not to Clep out of everything you can and take classes for what you can't.

Bob, MMR and I are talking about transfer admissions to London University.

I know that you're a troll and show up on my threads, acting like you hold something over me.

CLEP is not a transcript of US university courses, when applying to Britain. The British system is only vaguely aware of American HS level standardized exams. On the other hand, they're fully willing to acknowledge college grade point averages, which is why they're useful for transfer admissions, US college-to-UK college, not US HS-to-UK college freshman class.

BTW, a friend had spoken to a London rep on this and they said, from America, they do 'look at AP scores', when applying from an American HS.

Wow! That's really reassuring.

Sorry, As and Os are needed, to apply to the freshman year of a UK school.

Taking my rant against bob into account, if someone wanted to take, let's say the CLEP in general chemistry, but then, take organic chemistry for full undergrad credit with the grades, then all the power to him. The thing is that London needs to see those two As in o-chem I & II, and not just a plain *credit balance* for general chemistry w/o an assessed grade.

So hypothetically, you can CLEP out of intro to biology, general chemistry, calculus, but then, show college courses for microbiology, organic chemistry, differential equations, etc, prior to applying as a transfer to London.

Rin says

show college courses for microbiology, organic chemistry, differential equations, et

I don't know, it just sounds like overkill for me, since we're not taking about someone who wants to attend a STEM grad school.

Rin says

Bob, MMR and I are talking about transfer admissions to London University.

I know that you're a troll and show up on my threads, acting like you hold something over me.

CLEP is not a transcript of US university courses, when applying to Britain. The British system is only vaguely aware of American HS level standardized exams. On the other hand, they're fully willing to acknowledge college grade point averages, which is why they're useful for transfer admissions, US college-to-UK college, not US HS-to-UK college freshman class.

BTW, a friend had spoken to a London rep on this and they said, from America, they do 'look at AP scores', when applying from an American HS.

Wow! That's really reassuring.

Sorry, As and Os are needed, to apply to the freshman year of a UK school.

When people call you out for posting bullshit it's not trolling.

There is no london university. There is the university of london which has an online program. I'm actually familiar with it for a number of reasons. In typical british/commonwealth fashion it's 3 years with 12 courses or 4 courses per year, 2 courses per semester. Courses are made up of several classes and are treated as a whole. You may exit with a certificate of higher education if you complete 4 courses also called level 1, a diploma of higher education if you complete 8 courses also called level 2, or at BA if you complete all 12 courses. Transfer credits are called recognition of prior learning, awarding of credits is called accreditation of prior learning (APL). APL is only awarded by certain colleges at the university of london. APL can only be awarded for an entire course and only up to 4 courses. If the classes to transfer don't fill out the entire course credit is not awarded. Only a passing grade is required to be accepted for credit, not an A. All of this is in the university of london-international programs handbook if you don't trust my memory.

London school of economics is one of the colleges of the university of london. I am not at all familiar with it and had to read the handbook. From the london school of economics handbook "Direct entry to the second year of a programme at LSE on the basis of first year undergraduate study at another university is extremely rare, and is only permitted in exceptional circumstances". Seven of the colleges at the LSE don't accept any direct entry students at all. LSE does NOT offer online courses, they provide online courses for UL. You study through UL and get a UL degree. So the idea of having LSE on your hypothetical transcript is absurd.

There is no such thing as an O (ordinary) level for at least 25 years, it's the GCSE. High school in Britain starts at age 11 and compulsory education ends at 16. At 16 you take your GCSE which consists of 9 courses (exams to the new world philistines) of which you have to pass math english and 2 others. If you pass then you go onto "high school" or form 6 for 2 years. If not you can sit them again next year or start working. After 2 years of high school you take your A (advanced) levels. You need to take a minimum of 4 and pass 2. If you pass then off to college. US colleges used to take GCSE as credit for HS graduation, but I'm not sure any more. There is also the IGCSE, an upgraded internationalized version of GCSE that is becoming the standard. Every year over 2 million people in 80 countries take the IGCSE which is administered through the british council.

Note that throughout the commonwealth education is based on achievement, not time. People are free to take GCSE or A levels for years. This follows through the college and post graduate levels.

Clep credit is most certainly not a high school standardized exam. It's the college level examination program and it's been around well over 100 years. Your college transcript shows the course you clepped out of with a P instead of a numeric grade. Pay attention to how this works, you take a clep exam that passes you for the course. You get credit for the course not the clep exam itself. For example my university of texas transcript which I have right in front of me says
Course Description Score Credits
HIS 315L United States, 1492-1865 P 3
HIS 315K United States since 1865 P 3
Those are the actual UT courses still being taught today. The clep credit courses look exactly the same as every other course on the transcript. The only difference is a pass grade instead of a numeric grade. If I wanted to transfer the credits the course itself as described in the college handbook would be evaluated, even overseas. How do I know this? Because I did it in both Australia and NZ.

Do you want to keep blowing smoke?

First of all, no one is talking about transferring to the on-campus LSE program. That's a cloistered off group. And yes, University of London (sometimes colloquially referred to as London University, just like the University of Cambridge is sometimes referenced as Cambridge University) has many branches but for the online program in Economics, LSE provides the exam content and thus, they are listed as the lead college for those University of London offerings. This is why investment banks recruit graduates with that degree, esp those working in faraway places like Hong Kong or Johannesburg. I know one of them in Jo'burg.

And yes, one can transfer to the online program (yes, the 2nd year), after getting some credits at an American college, without the foundational classes, which is like a special students program. I know someone in the Boston area, doing exactly that with his daughter.

bob2356 says

Clep credit is most certainly not a high school standardized exam. It's the college level examination program and it's been around well over 100 years. Your college transcript shows the course you clepped out of with a P instead of a numeric grade. Pay attention to how this works, you take a clep exam that passes you for the course. You get credit for the course not the clep exam itself.

Once again, it's like "HS" (*Notice the rabbit ears) because it "mimics" the AP exams which are suppose to reflect college material for *younger ppl*, who're most likely attending HS. But yes, they can be older, since you're playing on the semantics game given that that's your only talent. And a 'P' cannot be reviewed as an 'A' when one transfers to another college. Getting credit is not the same as getting a letter grade mark.

BTW, I'm only replying to bob, because MMR, Thunderlips, and Oakman are reading this. Otherwise, I would have deleted bob because I think he's a worthless individual.

And MMR, ask yourself this question, was bob's genius interpretation of the CLEP, using semantics that *IT'S COLLEGE LEVEL EXAMINATION PROGRAM*, where one gets a 'P', instead of an 'A', such a valuable insight? I mean if you get a 'P' for Calculus but then need to then get an 'A' in Differential Equations, so that you can post some science GPA for medical school, that means that you had to take one more advanced class, which wasn't required by the adcoms for either medical school or London, sorry make that the University of London International Programme online (happy now, bob).

And then, it's actually possible to get a 'B' or 'B+' in that, instead of an 'A', esp if you were busy doing other stuff then specifically focusing on a more advanced subject area.

BTW, I'm requesting bob to stop posting here. I don't want him around anymore. Plus, MMR, Thunderlips, and others seem to be doing fine w/o him anyways.

Me too. I spent my Senior Year taking Shop classes just to fill the schedule. I didn't know, and the dumbass Guidance Counselor didn't mention, that I could have taken Comm College Courses for free. All I needed was a P/E and English Credit by the end of my Junior Year. Could have banged out English Comp 101 and taken a Swim Class, along with 4-5 other courses and gone in to school bypassing my Freshman Year.

--------------

Right. My HS allowed me to sign out after lunch during 11th grade, as long as you had an employer verify that you were going to work. By 12th grade, I only needed PE credit to graduate, so I could skip first period, show up at homeroom, attend Accounting class and then gym and chorus, and then off to work

The only thing the guidance counselor ever did was tell me how I needed to get into a good IST program lol. Lots of good that did me

errc says

Accounting class

It's a good thing that they provided accounting. That's at least one transferable skill to the outside world.