patrick.net

Rin says

In mean time, Gore and Kerry had gotten off scot free, that's why I'm picking on them as well.

Fair enough.

Classic Dan. His first response to anything I said in this thread.

Dan8267 says

I feel sorry for the people who have Marcus as a teacher. A good teacher encourages students to question everything.

Later he says this.

Dan8267 says

Nor would anyone living up to even the lowest academic standards have to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the topic at hand

This next part is priceless.

Dan8267 says

marcus says

Dan8267 says

I feel sorry for the people who have Marcus as a teacher

Very compelling argument and on topic. I take it as proof that you're dishonest and devoid of any integrity whatsoever.

And that is exactly why you make a shitty teacher. Is that what you consider delving into a subject? Someone makes a criticism of you and instead of dealing with the criticism either by refuting it or, better yet, addressing its merits and changing, you simply attack the criticizer. No good student, teacher, or person would do that.

Even in my brief criticism, I gave you are very specific reason why you aren't a good teacher. A good teacher encourages students to question everything. Clearly, you do not. In fact, you cannot even handle having your abilities questioned. As such, you prove my point time and time again. And you expect us to think that you are challenging students to think critically? How laughable.

"Is that what you consider delving into a subject? Someone makes a criticism of you"

Delving into what subject ? Whether you have a legitimate reason to feel sorry for my students ? You call saying what CIC has said to me dozens of times, that he feels sorry for my students, because I'm arguing with him, some kind of legitimate criticism ? If you think you have any idea what it's like to be a student of mine, you know you're lying. Why should I argue something that I know with certainty you know is a lie ?

"A good teacher encourages students to question everything."

With respect to Mathematics, I'll encourage students to question why, or to question whether there aren't better or more interesting ways to look at a problem. But when it comes to their decisions regarding what colleges to apply to, or whether college is right for them, I tread pretty lightly, because I don't think there are easy answers to that, and I don't even want to have too much influence on such important decisions.

Where exactly in this thread did I lead you to conclude that relative to being a HS Mathematics teacher, I have erred on the side of not encouraging students to question things ?

Dan8267 says

I'm not saying all teachers are bad, but if you are really good at something, you're probably doing that something not teaching it.

How does that even apply to teaching teens at the high school level ? At that level, hopefully what the person is really good at is teaching, and working with kids.

In summary, Marcus's idea is that Harvard is a great/non-overrated school based upon the propensity of Asian (or white) valedictorians with skating and violin trophies.

I counter that notion with the idea that since so many legacies and fortunate sons have a base camp there, it leads the school towards a finishing house model where sure, there are some great students but at the same time, a certain amount of an ass kissing population cohort cul-de-sac, weaseling their way into internships at McKinsey or Goldman Sachs. This added cultural feature, however, deludes the place and makes it prone to grade inflation with a general level of ordinariness, making it an overrated school.

In contrast, the Univ of London, given the fact that so many residents of the former (or current) British Commonwealth nations take its exam, has got to maintain some international standard where an 'A' is an 'A', and thus, the competitive exams like LSE in economics/math, etc, force the idle rich to at least study for a 'pass' with the idea that their GPA doesn't really matter in the end.

Rin says

Asian (or white) valedictorians with skating and violin trophies.

Shows what you know about Harvard. Only one of the 5 students I mentioned are white or asian, but they were all either valedictorians, or number 2.

I'll quote myself.

“This year’s applicant pool was remarkable by any standard in its academic and extracurricular excellence,” said Fitzsimmons. More than 14,000 scored 700 or above on the SAT critical reading test; 17,000 scored 700 or above on the SAT math test; 15,000 scored 700 or higher on the SAT writing test; and 3,800 were ranked first in their high school classes.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/2032-admitted-to-class-of-16/

marcus says

Rin says

Asian (or white) valedictorians with skating and violin trophies.

Shows what you know about Harvard.

“This year’s applicant pool was remarkable by any standard in its academic and extracurricular excellence,” said Fitzsimmons. More than 14,000 scored 700 or above on the SAT critical reading test; 17,000 scored 700 or above on the SAT math test; 15,000 scored 700 or higher on the SAT writing test; and 3,800 were ranked first in their high school classes.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/2032-admitted-to-class-of-16/

Marcus, haven't I already acknowledged the admissions gate?

How come you haven't come up with anything, regarding the actual difficulty of the program?

I think Dan is right, you are a moron.

Rin says

I counter that notion with the idea that since so many legacies and fortunate sons have a base camp there, it leads the school towards a finishing house model where sure, there are some great students but at the same time, a certain amount of an ass kissing population cohort cul-de-sac, weaseling their way into internships at McKinsey or Goldman Sachs. This added cultural feature, however, deludes the place and makes it prone to grade inflation with a general level of ordinariness, making it an overrated school.

In contrast, the Univ of London, given the fact that so many residents of the former (or current) British Commonwealth nations take its exam, has got to maintain some international standard where an 'A' is an 'A', and thus, the competitive exams like LSE in economics/math, etc, force the idle rich to at least study for a 'pass' with the idea that their GPA doesn't really matter in the end.

Marcus, please read the above and tell me that it isn't true.

Rin says

How come you haven't come up with anything, regarding the actual difficulty of the program?

I never argued with that.

marcus says

you are right that if one applies themself, and has decent abilities they can learn just as much or more at U of I Urbana, of many of California's UC schools as well as countless other Universities and Colleges.

I've made the point that the quality of the students means something. Grades mean less than you think, but I understand in your world income, grades, and any other metrics you can use to compare yourself to others is what it's all about. You've made that clear repeatedly. It's what's underlying this thread too.

What you're saying is hey, I'm just as good, in fact better than those people that go to or went to Harvard.

I get it. You're amazing ! You're better than everyone okay ?

Rin says

I think Dan is right, you are a moron.

Good one.

In a nutshell ... Harvard College is difficult to gain admissions into, if you're not Al Gore III.

And that's all that I'll give to Marcus.

marcus says

Grades mean less than you think, but I understand in your world income, grades, and any other metrics you can use to compare yourself to others is what it's all about. You've made that clear repeatedly. It's what's underlying this thread too.

What you're saying is hey, I'm just as good, in fact better than those people that go to or went to Harvard.

I get it. You're amazing ! You're better than everyone okay ?

Actually, these things do mean something because in contrast to the Navy SEALs, a person like myself has zero (read: zero) chance of passing BUD/S, yet, I could get a 3.8 at Harvard College, just by doing my work on time and not slacking off.

And thus today, I know zero actual SEALs (not a friend of a friend) but I know plenty of grads from Harvard and other Ivy colleges who're not all that impressive in the real world.

Rin says

I know plenty of grads from Harvard and other Ivy colleges who're not all that impressive in the real world.

I know, right ? It's like I said, you're better than them.

marcus says

I know, right ? It's like I said, you're better than them.

Sorry, but Ivy colleges, esp Harvard, tout their product to us corporations. And that message is this ... 'because of our admissions selection process minus Al Gore, our graduates are the best of breed.'

Now, the rest of the world is suppose to buy that tale, hook, line, and sinker. Sorry, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'd worked with grads from countless universities and the best (in terms of real work, not sales pitches) are still state unis (like Michigan, Illinois, GaTech, etc) with great science/engineering programs because for the most part, those students needed to earn their accolades, plus gain recognition from recruiters, as it wasn't bestowed upon them by well connected alumni. But yes, even those persons needed to later conform, by getting some MBA from MIT-Sloan, Wharton, Columbia, or Harvard. At least when that part had happened, they knew that their finishing school wasn't an academic place but a networking one.

Rin says

Sorry, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I don't know about that. Many of these students managed to finish at the top of their high school class, with high SAT scores. Then they still continued to grow for years after that.

It's safe to assume these are people of relatively high bandwidth, discipline and work ethic. I would agree that better people people can be found, that bloomed a little later, or were more driven later, or who didn't burn out from HS, but those people are harder to find and riskier to hire in to those 6 figure right out of school investment banking jobs.

From Goldman's point of view, its lower risk to invest huge amounts of training and time in to harvard grads, than it is to risk it with others who might be better but are also more likely to be worse. It's an expected value assessment. These are people who have proven their ability to perform for that prize. And they did it when they were younger and they still had plenty more growing to do - even just the physiological part. So some of them will be super stars. (even if you have known some duds).

marcus says

Rin says

I know plenty of grads from Harvard and other Ivy colleges who're not all that impressive in the real world.

I know, right ? It's like I said, you're better than them.

I know I'm better than 99% of them. My work says it all. Why should anyone have to engage in false humility. The only true measurement of a person's talent is the work he or she produces. Degrees and prestige mean nothing. This is why science is the great equalizer. Contributions to science are independent of race, religion, gender, nationality, class, wealth, degree, or credentials. It's the actual work that matters, and that's the way it should be.

Show me your work and I can judge you. Show me a degree and I know nothing about you.

Ironman says

Sure thing, because coding is so difficult, a monkey can do it.

Only a talentless monkey like you would say that. With every move your mouth betrays your ignorance as well as your love of goat penis.

marcus says

From Goldman's point of view, its lower risk to invest huge amounts of training and time in to harvard grads, than it is to risk it with others who might be better but are also more likely to be worse. It's an expected value assessment. These are people who have proven their ability to perform for that prize. And they did it when they were younger and they still had plenty more growing to do - even just the physiological part. So some of them will be super stars. (even if you have known some duds).

Actually, it's better if Goldman hired straight from Univ of Illinois/Urbana-Champaign and simply asked for the students who did the best there (who don't want to attend a future program in science or medicine). Chances are, they'd find a better worker, as those folks needed to earn their accolades during college, not before it. Remember, Harvard undergrad is a high grade inflation place where there's a lot of intrinsic laziness.

Dan8267 says

I know I'm better than 99% of them. My work says it all. Why should anyone have to engage in false humility. The only true measurement of a person's talent is the work he or she produces. Degrees and prestige mean nothing.

Unfortunately, given the fact that I work in finance, the only merit is a trader's P/L. Everything else is a mirage of sorts. This is why I'm not so keen on propping up Harvard College, since unlike the Navy SEALs, they haven't proven anything to me, besides graduating with a high high school GPA and SAT combination with some silly extracurriculars.

I prefer to see what a person can do, after he becomes an actual adult.

Let's face it Marcus, you just can't accept the notion that Harvard is not that difficult of an academic place vs let's say the Univ of Illinois/UC-Science/Engineering, where ppl are competing all of the time for their grades.

You're so enamored with your HS valedictorians that you can't figure out that they are just kids. If they don't compete like adults, then that's what they'll be, children.

In my Navy SEALS analogy, everyone enters as an enlisted but if one survives, one becomes special forces. You see, Harvard College has no such process. Sure, the ones with good grades apply for medical or law school ... big deal. And then, lots of everyone else, put in their resume for those recruiting cycles at management consulting and financial firms. Again ... big deal.

That process, in the real world, is known as a finishing house. When ppl are basically groomed for a particular line of thinking/work/etc, w/o really being challenged, it's pathetic. Even at my company, we need to see someone having worked somewhere, before taking a serious look. Granted, our work is lame and sure, if possible, we take the Ivy grad w/ at least one correct *financial services* job, but again, it's because of stupid ppl like you, who're big into name dropping than real achievement.

Oh, I forgot, high school valedictorian.

Ivy Leagues aren't meritocracies. They have way too many Al Gore/W alumni students for that, and deliberately look at the "Whole Person".

What bullshit.

Does the NFL give two shits if a star college quarterback or the #1 Kicker in all of Missouri they want was on the Chess Team or volunteered at the Commodore Yacht Club's 50th Sailing Against Polio Event?

No. So why the $*#@! should Academic Institutions give two shits other than "Kicked ass on SAT", America Chemistry Contest HS Project Finalist, etc.

thunderlips11 says

Ivy Leagues aren't meritocracies. They have way too many Al Gore/W alumni students for that, and deliberately look at the "Whole Person".

What bullshit.

Does the NFL give two shits if a star college quarterback they want was on the Chess Team or volunteered at the Commodore Yacht Club's 50th Sailing Against Polio Event?

No. So why the $*#@! should Academic Institutions give two shits other than "Kicked ass on SAT", America Chemistry Contest HS Project Finalist, etc.

Talk of Marcus, apparently, he's convinced that its entrants are the best of the best high schoolers.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

But only W ended up in the Oval Office being fucked in the ass by Victor Ashe screaming, "MMMMOOOOOOOOMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

Somehow you come with some little known facts about W and the Donald, where do you get this from?

Rin says

Let's face it Marcus, you just can't accept the notion that Harvard is not that difficult of an academic place vs let's say the Univ of Illinois/UC-Science/Engineering, where ppl are competing all of the time for their grades.

Never disputed that in the slightest.

thunderlips11 says

Ivy Leagues aren't meritocracies.

At this point in time, the last meritocracy is that Univ of London distance program.

More and more on-campus types of programs are becoming lame, as a result of catering to those with money in the bank. Even the vaunted Univ of Chicago undergrad is giving into grade inflation because it's facing a flight of students to other private schools, as a result of maintaining its earlier standards of having real grades.

To shatter your illusion, I knew one Seal, to quote him, "anyone can do it, if they set there mind to it" .

The Harvard, MIT, Ivy league school thing is more about cronyism than meritocracy.

The true test is the market, without the cronyism that is.

indigenous says

I knew one Seal, to quote him, "anyone can do it, if they set there mind to it" .

Except that he made it and thus, could offer that perspective from his own individual will power.

In contrast, most others, can't get through BUD/S training.

As for Harvard, most anyone can get through the coursework, provided that they actually did it. And no, it doesn't involve breaking down one's body to do it.

Ironman says

I was writing code long before you were even shot out by your surrogate father at the sperm bank.

Feel free to post some of your "code" so we can laugh at it.

Rin says

a SEAL could beat me one-on-one, anytime he wants

n 2010, the Navy, with the help of Gallup, identified seven sports that breed athletes who have the highest rate of becoming a SEAL—water polo, swimming, triathlons, lacrosse, boxing, rugby, and wrestling. Of that group, water polo players had the highest odds of making through SEAL training, odds that doubled if they played the sport in college.

“It’s a physical job,” said Scott Williams, public affairs officer for Naval Special Warfare Command, told The San Diego Union Tribune. “So we need guys who have a competitive spirit and are used to hard work and training.”

Other pursuits that predict success in the SEALs is regular participation in alternative sports such as skiing, mountain climbing, and martial arts, earning a bachelor’s degree, and having regular hobbies like chess or woodworking.

http://www.webpronews.com/navy-seals-recruit-heavily-from-seven-sports-2014-06/

From the Article, written by a former West Point Grad, Army Ranger and graduate of Harvard Business School

I have a running pet peeve that the U.S. Navy SEALs are the most overhyped military unit in history. They are somewhat skilled and have had some successes, like the the three snipers killing the three pirates and the Osama bin Laden killing, but they also seem to have, maybe more than their share, of dopey screw-ups like Operation Redwing or the Chinook shootdown in Afghanistan.

Here is another where a SEAL brought a woman home from a bar and was showing her his guns when he pointed one he thought was empty at his head and pulled the trigger, killing himself.

“The most elite military unit in the world.”

And then there is the Pentagon getting investigated for refusing to tell the public details about the killing of bin Laden because they were secret, but sharing those military secret details with a Hollywood production company that is going to make the movie Act of Valor about the SEALs.

SEALs say they want no publicity, but a number of them are playing themselves in the movie. And of course we are incapable of seeing the absurd hypocrisy of that claim and fact because we are blinded by the reflections from the SEALs’ medals.

There is probably no more public-relations-conscious military unit in history than the SEALs, with the possible exception of the U.S. Marine Corps, both subsidiaries of the U.S. Navy, which has also masterfully handled the challenging public relations task of keeping secret the fact that surface ships have been obsolete against modern enemies since around 1955."

He goes into a lot of the BUD/S training and criticizes it for it's lack of relevance to the types of missions they execute

http://www.johntreed.net/NavySEALSbloopers.html

Differences between going to West Point and a Scholarship

Can’t walk away
Civilian college students on scholarship can quit the school any time they want and walk away with no further obligation of any kind.

That is also true of West Point cadets, but only before their junior year starts in September. If you quit after junior year, you become a U.S. Army enlisted man. I do not know the current details, but when I was there, a junior cadet who quit became a corporal in the Army and had to stay there for four years. If a senior quit, he became a buck sergeant in the Army and had to stay there for five years. This was during the Vietnam War.

Eight years of indentured servitude
If you stay at West Point until graduation, you become a 2nd lieutenant and have to spend five years on active duty and three years thereafter in the Army Reserves.

During World War I and II, cadets were graduated before they had been there for four years and sent to war. After Wold War I, they came back and completed their studies as Army officers.

Civilian college students on scholarship have no obligation bearing even the slightest relationship to these active-duty Army obligations. If you simply walk away from West Point and the Army, you are a deserter under the UCMJ.

Furthermore, it gets far worse. Most college students graduate owing student loans. Some might say the need to stay in the Army for eight years is paying back a loan. No, it’s not. It is more accurately described as indentured servitude. I mean that literally. Indentured servitude has long been illegal in civilian life, and they do not use the phrase indentured servitude in the military, but that is exactly what it is. You cannot leave for a term of years and the idea is you are paying back your master either for transportation to the New World or training.

http://johntreed.myshopify.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-news-blog/76473219-west-point-ain-t-no-scholarship

Are Elite Military Units really Elite?

Areas where John T. Reed thinks the military are 'truly elite' compared to their civilian counterparts

The faculty at the U.S. Military Academy (West Point—may be true of Annapolis and the Air Force Academy as well. I wouldn’t know. A guy I roomed with for two years when we were cadets was the commander of this unit in the early 2000s, that is, he was the Dean of the Academic Board at West Point.)

The Navy’s Blue Angels (fighter jet acrobatic demonstration team)

The Air Force’s Thunderbirds (fighter jet acrobatic demonstration team)

Navy nuclear submariners

Green Berets

It's really long, so read it if interested when you have a few minutes

http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-blog-about-military-matters/65802307-elite-military-units-army-rangers

Well MMR, that explains everything, I'd only played basketball; I'd never taken up water polo.

In fact, all of those I'd known, who'd flunked BUD/S or any of the other special forces pre-screening tests were either HS or college players in basketball, hockey, football, soccer, baseball, or karate/martial arts.

But here's the thing, friendly fire killings, which were well known via our Vietnam era elders, isn't the reason why the special forces have gaping issues. It's really that there's no such thing as a perfect specimen, the best physical shape, along with the mental equipment to go with it. And at the same time, sure, there will be rivalries between the divisions of the armed forces.

Yet, it doesn't change this one fundamental issue ... that pretty much, anyone from the greater Boston area, can take classes at Harvard Extension and then later, opt for sections at Harvard College/daytime, provided a B+ GPA, and still perform very well despite having no chance at ordinary admissions.

According to Ivy propaganda, they're special and thus, ordinary New Englanders can't make the marks. The fact that this has been continually disproven for decades, just by regular (sorry, above average) Joes living in and around Boston, makes Harvard undergrad less rigorous than the Navy SEALS BUD/S program.

And as we know, if these Joes decided to attend the Univ of Illinois, for their final BS degree, chances are, they won't get recruited by Goldman Sachs or McKinsey.

And thus, the only *above average* Joe solution is the Univ of London online, which give 'em the LSE affiliation but w/o the crony BS before attaining it.

Rin says

And as we know, if these Joes decided to attend the Univ of Illinois, for their final BS degree, chances are, they won't get recruited by Goldman Sachs or McKinsey.

I can't argue with that. I see some people here attempt to do that, but it's incredible that others can do that. Rigorous schools with no grade inflation can't compete with Ivies for recruitment into these firms.

MMR says

Rin says

And as we know, if these Joes decided to attend the Univ of Illinois, for their final BS degree, chances are, they won't get recruited by Goldman Sachs or McKinsey.

I can't argue with that. I see some people here attempt to do that, but it's incredible that others can do that. Rigorous schools with no grade inflation can't compete with Ivies for recruitment into these firms.

The only non-grade inflation school is the Univ of London, which has pull in management consulting and financial services sectors.

The problem there (if you're not on the residential London side), is that one still needs to push the alumni circles, to get one's resume on the top of the stack. Still, it's doable, as UoL, even if it's the distance UoL with LSE as the lead college program, is considered one of the boys, despite not having a full campus presence.

We'd actually interviewed a guy from Jo'burg (nickname for Johannsburg South Africa) who's doing exactly that while interning at places in SA. Our senior partners consider him to be an insider. All they needed to hear was *first class honours*, to get him into the 2nd round. I haven't seen such admiration for any of the SUNY or UConn types w/o a lot of pre-existing experience.

In contrast, Univ of Illinois types in finance, have already gotten their 2-4 years and went for their postgraduate work at a Wharton or a Univ of Chicago and thus, are no longer state u types afterwards.

Rin says

n contrast, Univ of Illinois types in finance, have already gotten their 2-4 years and went for their postgraduate work at a Wharton or a Univ of Chicago and thus, are no longer state u types afterwards.

Indeed, and that is the reality of the hoops one has to jump through if they are talented, but not lucky enough to get into the Ivy league directly out of high school. Rin says

I haven't seen such admiration for any of the SUNY or UConn types w/o a lot of pre-existing experience.

Naturally....it's a pedigree thing and bragging rights for your firm.Rin says

hances are, they won't get recruited by Goldman Sachs or McKinsey

as you've stated before, they're not interested in middle-class or poor people. Only elites/elitists

Ironman says

I was writing code long before you were even shot out by your surrogate father at the sperm bank.

Do you teach programming at the local community college on the side by any chance?

MMR says

Indeed, and that is the reality of the hoops one has to jump through if they are talented, but not lucky enough to get into the Ivy league directly out of high school.

Sad but true

MMR says

Naturally....it's a pedigree thing and bragging rights for your firm

It's not as much bragging per se, but a part of being seen as *one of us*.

The Univ of London, even the distance program, despite the fact that it's a merit/exam based system (with ways for lower to middle class Commonwealth entrants to get through), is a strange mix of elitism and egalitarianism. In a sense, it's almost like the French Foreign legion where if you're a hard core studier/exam taker, you can wipe out your state u (a/o ordinary public school/average-to-lower class) past and cast yourself as a member of the up and coming soon-to-be elite *City Worker* crowd. I'm yet to see anything like it, anywhere else, because it's not exorbitantly overpriced and is reachable by a lot of ppl.

(FYI, *City Worker* here means someone who works in London's financial services sector like around Canary Wharf or the One Square Mile. It doesn't mean public works, like the trolley/transit or street cleaning jobs in America.)

I mean one can get a degree out of Duke or Brown, paying ala carte for every single class, there is a way to do that but let's face it, that's not a middle classer. That's a stupid rich kid, who was too stupid and lazy to do any homework at his Philip's academy. Yes, the number of backdoors for the idle rich are exuberant.

The moral of the story is that unless you'd won a full scholarship, do not attend a state u with a top international science and engineering program like the Univ of Illinois/Urbana-Champaign because outside of a few STEM companies, your brand name will be no different than that of anyone, who'd attend a local state u, anywhere else in the country. It's very unlikely that you'd be recruited by management consulting or financial firms, despite the fact that for your Magna Cum Laude, you'd be doing twice the work as someone at Harvard or Yale College.

Instead, take the basic premed reqs at your neighborhood community college and then, transfer to the Univ of London online; study hard and graduate first class honours. Assuming that you work out your own internships but network with alumni, you'd have a much better shot at a career in management consulting or finance, if you decide not to attend medical school. Also, if you do attend medical school but later, want to leave medicine for management consulting, a London affiliation could still help with that career change.

Rin says

The moral of the story is that unless you'd won a full scholarship, do not attend a state u with a top international science and engineering program like the Univ of Illinois/Urbana-Champaign because outside of a few STEM companies, your brand name will be no different than that of anyone, who'd attend a local state u, anywhere else in the country.

As a UIUC engineering grad, I'll have to disagree with this one. The brand name among engineers is strong, as you know, and I, like the vast majority of students there, didn't want a consulting or financial job. If I did, I would have gone somewhere else.

Rin says

And thus, the only *above average* Joe solution is the Univ of London online, which give 'em the LSE affiliation but w/o the crony BS before attaining it.

Why do you keep spouting this trite nonsense? LSE is one of 27 schools at University of London. What affiliation are you babbling about? Anyone who knows enough to be impressed by LSE would know this, obviously you don't.

tatupu70 says

The brand name among engineers is strong, as you know, and I, like the vast majority of students there, didn't want a consulting or financial job. If I did, I would have gone somewhere else.

A lot of ppl begin in STEM but move into other areas like consulting or finance, after getting started. Since UIUC offers one of the best educational values in the country, it should have the ability to place ppl laterally in a bunch of those adjacent areas, as does MIT, where many of their graduates do work in McKinsey, Morgan & Stanley, etc, not just Microsoft, Google, etc,

BTW, I'd kicked Bob off my threads as he's been pretty much a dick, trolling around all of the time.

In fact, some time ago one of his greatest interjections was the following statement:

bob says

There is no London University, it's the UNIVERSITY OF LONDON! Bahahahahaha!!!!!!

Ok, I added the emoticon at the end but that's the essence of this troll. Instead of offering meaningful advice, he just acts as if MMR, Thunderlips, and others can't figure this out on their own without his insipid interjections. As for his brilliant statement, colloquially speaking, ppl have called the University of Cambridge, Cambridge University, and likewise, the University of London, London University. But yes, in terms of grammatical excellence, bob's proven his merit.

Bob's repeated himself a number of times, acting as if his insight is amazing and that the great observation of his is that the on-campus Univ of London LSE (London School of Economics) is not the distance program which is simply called the Univ of London International Programme. --- (which BTW, I'd already acknowledged)

In Bob's infinite wisdom and clarification, this is some trump card.

Here's the story ... the London School of Economics creates the materials/exams for economics for the offsite/International Programme and is listed as the lead college. It's known that the long distance program is not on-campus, yet, the programs are equivalent because the finals are LSE finals.

http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/lse/bsc-economics

At the same time, for other majors outside of let's say economics & related topics, there are other schools like the School of Oriental & African studies, University College London, etc.

And would you believe that many of these other schools also place ppl into careers in consulting and finance? Yes, because in the UK (plus Commonwealth) world, they're also highly regarded and share the umbrella at London. There is a huge difference between attending these programs and some random Univ of East Anglia in northeast England. Many successful folks have done this remote program and it's been around for over a century and half. What this is referred to is the halo effect of the University of London system.

What great STEM programs, like UIUC, fail at is that they don't get it. The fact that for some decades, graduates have been successful at entry level stints at a Shell or an IBM research, doesn't spill over onto the corporate suites. Sure, there's the random Beckman Instruments, along with Marc Anderssen's Netscape, but for the most part, UIUC is not seen as a place where a STEM graduate will later be a business leader or even on some steering committee, leading R&D efforts.

So what happens in the UIUC example is that the smart kid now works hard in R&D for 5 years but then later, bolts for a Univ of Chicago MBA, re-inventing himself in management consulting for the tech sector.

For Thunderlips and MMR, let me give you two sample resumes (with names/locations changed) and tell me if you can identify the lower to middle class mentality …

____

Rich:

Experience:

Data Analyst, Beta-Zetta Capital Group
Analyzed deal book dynamics for field operations.

Education:

BS, Electrical Engineering Summa Cum Laude, SUNY/Stony Brook
Presented on signal processing dynamics studies.
Diploma, Stuyvesant High School

____

Eddie:

Experience:

Research Analyst, Beta-Zetta Capital Group
Analyzed deal book dynamics for field operations.

Education:

BS, Economics, University of London, First Class Honours, Lead College: LSE

Certificate in Computation, University of Cape Town, presented symposium on risk identification in steady state round trip studies.

____

Notice the difference, Rich is proud of the fact that he's some data/detail expert and at the same time, proudly displays his magnet HS, thinking that it overshadows his college namesake.

In contrast, Eddie only showed that he'd gotten himself some certificate, perhaps an associate degree at best, with some computational work but then, used that to present a topic, relevant for a trading desk. But instead of proudly beating his chest about that data/technical work, he instead, overlays the Univ of London and presents himself as a research analyst, not a data type.

Guess what, Eddie got the interview, Rich was snickered at, because the HS bit made him look like a goofball and the rest wasn't all that interesting.

Also, Eddie's mother is American and thus, he's carrying two passports, USA and SA, so there's no visa issue here either.