patrick.net

SoftShell says

everyone packing at that concert, you'd have 4 dead civvys max...

You're living in some kind of Dirty Harry fantasy land.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

Ironman aka rambo would have most certainly jumped up with his 6 round concealed hand gun and shot it out with 4 guys with their 30 round ak 47's on full auto. He's just that kind of guy.

Yep, I am... Where you would just sit and cower like a little girl and just wait to be shot by the thugs... So feminine of you...

Speaking of Dirty Harry fantasists. And how many of your examples were about multiple individuals carrying Ak-47s and intent on blowing themselves up? In your la-la land, you think it's a good idea that pissed up young people be free to carry concealed guns. Congratulations on that well thought out plan of action.

Ironman says

You do know that, when the police decided to storm the theater to confront the shooters, the killing of innocent civilians stopped and the shooters died.

I know, facts really suck and get in the way of your liberal fantasies...

Didn't they blow themselves up? Perhaps they had spent all their ammo. The point was that if three or four men start firing Ak-47s, it would take a lot to stop them. A lot more than you thinking that you would stand up, fire your handgun and that would be the problem solved.

indigenous says

the point is that mohammed is explicitly documented as robbing, raping, and murdering, and his is considered by muslims to be "the role model for all of humanity"

do you really think mohammed's violence is completely unconnected to today's events in paris?

I think that that is irrelevant

you're wrong about that, it's not only relevant, it's central. they're 1. yelling allahu akbar and 2. machinegunning into the crowd at the same time, and you don't seem to see any connection between #1 and #2.

you have your own religion of disbelief in reality. why is that? too painful for you to admit that one religion is far more violent than all the others put together?

I think the US funding Al Qaeda, ISIS and training them, made them a lot more formidable. Remember Al Qaeda ran Russia out of Afghanistan, goat herders are not normally able to do that, they got a lot of training from the US, including Bin Laden, as has ISIS in order to fight Assad.

that much is definitely true. so you're right about that. they were "freedom fighters" when they were fighting the russians for us.

but the hatred for non-muslims inherent in islam is central to everything islamic terrorists/freedom fighters do. from their point of view, you had the opportunity to convert to the one true religion, but you rejected it (and them) and therefore your life is basically worthless. very bad idea to give people like that money and guns, even if it seemed useful at the time.

so now, what is the solution? it's starting to seem more reasonable to require everyone to carry a gun.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

Didn't they blow themselves up?

Yep, because as soon as they were confronted, they took the easy way out.

Yeah, because they obviously hadn't planned it in advance...

Ironman says

So, what if there were 10 - 20 civilians out of the crowd of 200+ people who decided to fire back at these guys. What do you think the shooters would have done, since they blew themselves up as soon as the police came in?

So like I said, your idea is to allow a bunch of pissed up young kids to carry concealed weapons. Good plan.

Upon creation, Pakistan was 20-25% Hindu and Sikh. Today it is less than 1%.

But any sort of Indian disgust at Islamic Terror is condemned worldwide, while Pakistan ethnically cleansed non-Muslims with impunity.

Bigsby says

So like I said, your idea is to allow a bunch of pissed up young kids to carry concealed weapons. Good plan.

The pissed up young kids who want to shoot up people seem to choose the same gun-free zones, aka free-shooting zones. Logic seems to indicate, gun-free zones are open invitations to pissed off mass murderers and wannabes, foreign and domestic.

so now, what is the solution? it's starting to seem more reasonable to require everyone to carry a gun.

Quit the empire thing, i.e. quit bombing/invading middle east countries. Close down the bases in 140 some odd countries.

Armed citizens is a good idea. With the caveat that they know how to hit what they aim at, maybe require firearms classes, it works great in Switzerland.

What can you do that would actually end this madness? Disagreeing with the Muslim religion does not do anything.

Here is a 2 fer, quit training and financing radical Muslim groups, quite bombing innocents and creating hatred. And train the citizens on how to use guns. E.G. Switzerland and Israel.

Oh and profile and get rid of the silly Chertoff scanners. I don't have much of a problem with the NSA using meta data to track down these mutts either.

indigenous says

I think that that is irrelevant, I think the US funding Al Qaeda, ISIS and training them, made them a lot more formidable. Remember Al Qaeda ran Russia out of Afghanistan, goat herders are not normally able to do that, they got a lot of training from the US, including Bin Laden, as has ISIS in order to fight Assad.

Indy, it's not. Plenty of cultural groups and people receive funding and military training for various reasons at any given point in time, but they don't go out into the world far away from their conflict and kill innocent civilians.

indigenous says

Quit the empire thing, i.e. quit bombing/invading middle east countries. Close down the bases in 140 some odd countries.

Armed citizens is a good idea. With the caveat that they know how to hit what they aim at, maybe require firearms classes, it works great in Switzerland.

Agreed, and close or severely tighten the domestic borders with deep scrutiny. but you know what that means, stop meddling in the middle-east. The day the US and the UN say we don't care because we decided to stay out of this conflict Israel will level their surrounding threatening countries/territories because they have no other choice, being vastly outnumbered. You have to be ok with that likely scenario if you advocate complete withdrawal.

Bigsby says

So like I said, your idea is to allow a bunch of pissed up young kids to carry concealed weapons. Good plan.

Exactly! Civilians should be encouraged to train and qualify for M4, the standard Army and Marines officers' side arm. 2nd Amendment has to be strengthened in the face of this new "Pervasive/Total War" threat, and many of the gun control laws have to be lifted. Otherwise, not even having police and National Guard deployed on every street would be able to defend this kind of threat, but only subject the uniformed defenders to random murder by those religious thugs.

Reality says

Bigsby says

So like I said, your idea is to allow a bunch of pissed up young kids to carry concealed weapons. Good plan.

The pissed up young kids who want to shoot up people seem to choose the same gun-free zones, aka free-shooting zones. Logic seems to indicate, gun-free zones are open invitations to pissed off mass murderers and wannabes, foreign and domestic.

What? Unless somewhere is under very heavy guard, then anywhere is a potential target. Station, shopping mall, wherever. Every city has any number of soft targets. Nothing can be done about it, unless you want to live in a world where every single building you enter has multiple armed guards stationed at the entrances, where you are searched and go through a metal detector... We live in a world with too many people, too many guns, and too many nut jobs quite happy to kill themselves and others in the belief that they are somehow doing the right thing and will be rewarded for it in the afterlife. Most will be stopped. Some will get through. That is the world we currently live in.

Reality says

Exactly! Civilians should be encouraged to train and qualify for M4, the standard Army and Marines officers' side arm. 2nd Amendment has to be strengthened in the face of this new "Pervasive/Total War" threat, and many of the gun control laws have to be lifted. Otherwise, not even having police and National Guard deployed on every street would be able to defend this kind of threat, but only subject the uniformed defenders to random murder by those religious thugs.

Yes, yes, that is obviously what we need. Young people carrying M4s when they go for their shopping, young people carrying M4s when they're out on the piss at the weekends. Young people carrying M4s at music festivals... I can't for the life of me think why people didn't push for this idea before.

Bigsby says

Unless somewhere is under very heavy guard, then anywhere is a potential target. Station, shopping mall, wherever. Every city has any number of soft targets. Nothing can be done about it, unless you want to live in a world where every single building you enter has multiple armed guards stationed at the entrances, where you are searched and go through a metal detector...

You seemed to have missed the very simple fact that almost all of the mass shooting events took place where guns were banned. When the few instances where one or two concealed carry civilians were present despite the ban, the wannabe mass murders quickly killed themselves! Even in this Paris incident, the mere showing up of police being able to shoot back quickly led to the terrorists blowing themselves up instead of trying to do real battle against armed opponents. The terrorists may well have killed themselves earlier or not have started the massacre to begin with if even 1% of the 2000+ "sitting ducks" in that theater had been armed. The "soft targets" are soft only because gun control laws preventing law abiding citizens from protecting themselves.

Bigsby says

Yes, yes, that is obviously what we need. Young people carrying M4s when they go for their shopping, young people carrying M4s when they're out on the piss at the weekends. Young people carrying M4s at music festivals... I can't for the life of me think why people didn't push for this idea before.

Most music festivals have armed guards nowadays already, and yes the armed guards usually are young people.

If you hate guns and self-defense so much, why don't you advocate disarming the secret service? or even disarming the police?

Ironman says

Bigsby says

So like I said, your idea is to allow a bunch of pissed up young kids to carry concealed weapons. Good plan.

So what's your plan, just sit there and wait for your turn to take a bullet in the head?

Yeah, yeah, that's obviously my plan, whereas your plan is to arm every little kid with an M4. That'll make us all safer.

USA firearm homicides in 2012: 9,146. France: 35. Clearly the solution to a safer world is more guns.

Reality says

Most music festivals have armed guards nowadays already, and yes the armed guards usually are young people.

If you hate guns and self-defense so much, why don't you advocate disarming the secret service? or even disarming the police?

Yeah, which obviously translates into everyone should be allowed to carry assault rifles.

And I'm from a country where most police are unarmed. It's worked out quite well for the UK so far, and I'm more than happy for it to continue. For some peculiar reason, the abundance of guns in your country doesn't appear to actually make people safer. I wonder why that might be.

Ironman says

Reality says

You seemed to have missed the very simple fact that almost all of the mass shooting events took place where guns were banned. When the few instances where one or two concealed carry civilians were present despite the ban, the wannabe mass murders quickly killed themselves! Even in this Paris incident, the mere showing up of police being able to shoot back quickly led to the terrorists blowing themselves up instead of trying to do real battle against armed opponents.

That's a FACT that Bigs and others will NEVER admit.

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai, for example, the terrorists just laid down their guns and gave up.

You seriously think these people just gave up because the police arrived? Who do you think you are trying to kid? They didn't give up. They blew themselves up. They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

mell says

The day the US and the UN say we don't care because we decided to stay out of this conflict Israel will level their surrounding threatening countries/territories because they have no other choice, being vastly outnumbered.

They are coming close to that now by lobbying the US.

mell says

Plenty of cultural groups and people receive funding and military training for various reasons at any given point in time

Examples?

indigenous says

They are coming close to that now by lobbying the US.

But isn't that the net result of an isolationist stance? They can get weapons from anybody, they have a functioning economy.

indigenous says

mell says

Plenty of cultural groups and people receive funding and military training for various reasons at any given point in time

Examples?

Just one quick one, Kurdish fighters have been armed and helped for a while now to be able to compete with their enemies. And they keep fighting their cause in their region. Very very rarely there is a protest by them in Europe about their cause and it is pretty much never violent.

Ironman says

Bigsby says

They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

So, since these guys are "fucked up", we shouldn't do ANYTHING to help defend ourselves, just sit back unarmed and wait for the next group of "fucked up" terrorists to strike and kill hundreds of people.

Brilliant plan!!

Duh. We have a huge network of heavily funded agencies fighting them (more than likely the kind of big government agencies you lot rage against on any other topic). Handing guns to any and every kid isn't going do jack shit except make day to day life more dangerous for everyone.

ONE OF THE TERRORISTS WAS "REFUGEE" VIA GREECE

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers

Goodbye, Mutti!

Ironman says

Bigsby says

They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

So, since these guys are "fucked up", we shouldn't do ANYTHING to help defend ourselves, just sit back unarmed and wait for the next group of "fucked up" terrorists to strike and kill hundreds of people.

Islam is what fucked them up to begin with. As long as we have Islam on the lose, more and more Muslim minds will get fucked up.
We need to control these countries, so we can control the Islamic preachings of hate and violence.

indigenous says

so now, what is the solution? it's starting to seem more reasonable to require everyone to carry a gun.

Quit the empire thing, i.e. quit bombing/invading middle east countries. Close down the bases in 140 some odd countries.

so you want to reward the terrorists according to how many innocent civilians they kill. good plan. that will surely stop them.

Armed citizens is a good idea. With the caveat that they know how to hit what they aim at, maybe require firearms classes, it works great in Switzerland.

we agree there. we can learn from switzerland and israel.

What can you do that would actually end this madness? Disagreeing with the Muslim religion does not do anything.

very wrong.

public (preferably polite) disagreement with islam is absolutely essential to the future of the human race. islam thrives only where it can threaten or kill anyone who publicly disagrees with it. freedom of speech is the exact opposite of islam.

with a billion loud voices saying the truth out loud about what islam actually is, no one's rights are violated, and muslims have a chance of freeing themselves from islam.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Here is a 2 fer, quit training and financing radical Muslim groups, quite bombing innocents and creating hatred. And train the citizens on how to use guns. E.G. Switzerland and Israel.

yes, i agree with both of those.

in particular, we need to stop sending money to saudi arabia, and we need our government to clearly state out loud that:

1. saudi arabia has zero democracy
2. saudi arabia has zero freedom of speech
3. saudi arabia has zero freedom of religion

we look like weak hypocritical corrupt money-grubbing idiots by dealing with the saudis at all. which perhaps we are overall.

Ironman says

Go ask the 100 dead people in the theater how well that plan has worked!

It's worked pretty well so far considering how desperate these groups are to carry out attacks and how few have actually happened. They've certainly stopped a lot more attacks than your plan to arm kids with guns would ever prevent.

thunderlips11 says

ONE OF THE TERRORISTS WAS "REFUGEE" VIA GREECE

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers

How to invade Europe in three easy lessons.

Bigsby says

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai, for example, the terrorists just laid down their guns and gave up.

You seriously think these people just gave up because the police arrived? Who do you think you are trying to kid? They didn't give up. They blew themselves up. They were happy to die. That's how fucked up they were. You don't really seem to have much idea of the mentality of these individuals.

The ones who did Mumbai were battle-hardened veterans from the 1998 war in Kashmir mountains. The run-of-the-mill wackos are not battle hardened at all. They want to die in a blaze of "glory" or get their "72 virgins," but they usually do not want to bleed out slowly writhing in pain for hours before expiring, or even have the mental capacity to handle real combat against another group of armed people. It's not just the police that caused the wackos to give up, but they gave up and shot themselves when faced with any armed opposition!

Word is the several of the Terrorists came from Belgistan, a nascent Islamic State located on the North Sea.

http://www.france24.com/en/20151114-belgium-investigation-paris-attacks-terrorism-france-police

They're not here to integrate, but dominate. Sharia4Belgium.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZDKk15KcqNk

thunderlips11 says

ONE OF THE TERRORISTS WAS "REFUGEE" VIA GREECE

On a million refugees, there may be 10,000 ISIS 'soldiers'.
What happened in Paris is just a taste of things to come.

Ironman says

Heraclitusstudent says

On a million refugees, there may be 10,000 ISIS 'soldiers'.


What happened in Paris is just a taste of things to come.

Not to worry, the refugees we're bringing to the US are the "nice" ones!!

How many are we bringing in?

thunderlips11 says

They're not here to integrate, but dominate. Sharia4Belgium.

Again, why should we tolerate religion when religion is calling for the murder of innocents and chopping off body parts?

Why should religion be the one evil we tolerate, even revere?

Ironman says

bob2356 says

Ironman aka rambo would have most certainly jumped up with his 6 round concealed hand gun and shot it out with 4 guys with their 30 round ak 47's on full auto. He's just that kind of guy.

Yep, I am... Where you would just sit and cower like a little girl and just wait to be shot by the thugs... So feminine of you...

You would have shit in your pants then cried for mommy.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

You would have shit in your pants

You're thinking of your buddy sbh, fecal matter is his specialty!!

Yea, sure whatever you say mr. mitty.

thunderlips11 says

Pakistan ethnically cleansed non-Muslims with impunity.

Bangladesh as well

Bigsby says

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai

If they knew that people at the Taj were likely to be armed and be unafraid to use it against the Pakistani terrorists, they would have picked a different place to target altogether. Why should all guns be in the hands of criminals or law enforcement?

Fucked By Goats Ironman says

France has been asking for it for too long

have been oblivious about what unfettered muslim immigration can bring.

Ironman says

You do know that a 18 year old "kid" can volunteer to join the army in France and shoot automatic weapons, right?

You do know that a 18 year old "kid" can vote for President in France, right?

You do know that a 18 year old "kid" can buy alcohol in France, right?

But, in your twisted, liberal, hypocrite, double standard view, a 18 year old "kid" shouldn't be allowed to apply for a firearm permit, right??????

Does that sum up your point?

Yes, amazingly enough, I don't think that it's a good idea to allow any and every 18 year-old to carry around a concealed weapon, in this case at a rock concert where they are consuming alcohol. I know that may be weird to you, Mr Rambo, but I think you might find I'm not alone in that view.

Reality says

The ones who did Mumbai were battle-hardened veterans from the 1998 war in Kashmir mountains. The run-of-the-mill wackos are not battle hardened at all. They want to die in a blaze of "glory" or get their "72 virgins," but they usually do not want to bleed out slowly writhing in pain for hours before expiring, or even have the mental capacity to handle real combat against another group of armed people. It's not just the police that caused the wackos to give up, but they gave up and shot themselves when faced with any armed opposition!

You have no idea what they did before this carnage, and you have no idea what the circumstances were at the end. To say that they would just give up in the face of some police runs directly contrary to the fact that they were clearly willing to die, and is simply you making up a scenario to fit your argument.

MMR says

Bigsby says

Sure, sure, when the police turned up at the hotel in Mumbai

If they knew that people at the Taj were likely to be armed and be unafraid to use it against the Pakistani terrorists, they would have picked a different place to target altogether. Why should all guns be in the hands of criminals or law enforcement?

Genius. Yes, they might have picked a softer target if necessary, though it is quite clear from past history that they are also willing to attack some pretty heavily defended institutions, or do you just want to ignore those assaults for convenience sake?

Ironman says

Bigsby says

is simply you making up a scenario to fit your argument.

Ha Ha Ha... go look in the mirror...

I'm not making anything up though, am I? They blew themselves up, did they not? Therefore, they were willing to die. See how that works?