patrick.net

bob2356 says

BayArea says

It looks like the law is clear, thanks for posting.

What's not clear is if there are any loopholes in place currently that would allow large numbers of illegal immigrants to vote for president of the United States without having commited identity fraud.

How can it not be clear? This is the law of the land. IT SHALL BE UNLAWFUL FOR ANY ALIEN TO VOTE ...... FOR THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT. I really thought that was about as unambiguous as it possibly can be. The only exceptions are right there in subsection (c). There is only 1 USC, there isn't some shadow set of rules tucked away somewhere.

I am constantly stunned by the number of people, including a large number on patnet, who live their lives under a set of laws that they have no idea in the world how they are formulated, what they mean, or even what they say. Simply amazing.

What's so difficult to understand?

Just because it's law doesn't mean it's being followed. We constantly see headlines about as many as 7-figures of illegal immigrants casting votes during this election. Are these fake or is there some other vehicle enabling this beyond premeditated identity fraud?

BayArea says

Just because it's law doesn't mean it's being followed. We constantly see headlines about as many as 7-figures of illegal immigrants casting votes during this election. Are these fake or is there some other vehicle enabling this beyond premeditated identity fraud?

There are headlines that say Obama was born in Kenya and Clinton ran a paedophile ring out of a dc pizzeria.

So logically using your brain if 2 million plus illegals voted for democrats illegally why has the entire army of rabid right wingnuts and the 60% republican governors and the 70% republican state houses the republican house and the republican senate not come up with anything after 3 months? Do you suppose, just suppose, they might all have some tiny little interest politically in finding out if the law was followed? Yet nothing but crickets chirping.

Yes there could be some unknown vehicle for enabling this that has remained invisible and undetectable. There could be little green men living on mars. There could have been a second shooter on the grassy knoll. Sounding like tin foil hat time.

FP says

rando says

Most of them did commit a crime

Depends on what you understand by crime - simply breaking the law, or also doing harm to others. I think most people think of the second. And obviously I do not think that a Mexican crossing the border to pick veggies on CA harms others.

Neither is speeding on an empty freeway, jaywalking, or a million other things ... but guess what...

FortWayne says

Neither is speeding on an empty freeway, jaywalking, or a million other things ... but guess what...

Again, poor analogy. The examples you listed potentially do endanger others.

bob2356 says

DP licenses are NOT automatically registered to vote and can't be used to register to vote.

OK, but still, given that we know people are here illegally, why are they allowed to remain? They're not even hiding anymore:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2015/07/17/california-most-new-drivers-licenses-go-to-illegal-immigrants/

rando says

OK, but still, given that we know people are here illegally, why are they allowed to remain. They're not even hiding anymore:

Why aren't we throwing people that hire them in jail? If no one will hire them they will be gone fast. The right wing has been playing the let's get rid of the illegals card to their base for 40 years while blocking every single attempt to actually do something effective. There is no way the right wing politicos are going to cross the big bucks donors who hire millions of illegals. I don't believe trump is going to do anything either other than make a big show with no real action.

Bread and Circus.

bob2356 says

Why aren't we throwing people that hire them in jail? If no one will hire them they will be gone fast.

Yes, Bob, we agree on something!

The people who hire them should go to jail. No fines, which they can easily pay, but jail, say 30 days for each violation.

It's part of my platform: https://patrick.net/1303173/2017-02-19-patrick-net-platform

rando says

The people who hire them should go to jail. No fines, which they can easily pay, but jail, say 30 days for each violation.

Never going to happen. Too much money would be lost without the illegals. Too many corporations and ultra rich depend on profits from using illegals far too much. Even the principled republican politicos (yes there is such a thing) have to dance to the tune of big money. Any republican politician that actually would stand up and say the emperor has no clothes will find him/her self being buried by the dark money machine in a primary challenge. The number of moderate republicans knocked of by libertarian/tea party challengers since citizens united is way higher than any other period in history. They didn't get the money to do that out of a cookie jar.

bob2356 says

Never going to happen. Too much money would be lost without the illegals

bob2356 says

Any republican politician that actually would stand up and say the emperor has no clothes will find him/her self being buried by the dark money machine in a primary challenge.

Unfortunate, but true. The entire illegal immigration problem is wholly due to the desire for cheap labor so that the owner class can cut themselves a bigger slice of the pie by cutting the actual wealth producers a smaller part. The immigration problem is a fundamental consequence of capitalism, the economic system in which control of production and the resulting revenue is given to owners rather than wealth producers. The only way to solve the immigration problem is to stop using capitalism. By definition, that means the farm and factory owners cannot control wages. Wages must be determined by wealth production, not bargaining power.

Unfortunately, the people who complain the most about illegal immigration are usually brainwashed into the religion of capitalism that is entirely responsible for the illegal immigration. Since those people are not rational, we will probably never have the unified political will to fix this problem.

The only solution we may get is the complete replacement of manual labor with robots. Then the immigration problem will immediately cease.

bob2356 says

Why aren't we throwing people that hire them in jail? If no one will hire them they will be gone fast.

bob2356 says

Never going to happen. Too much money would be lost without the illegals.

bob2356 says

The right wing has been playing the let's get rid of the illegals card to their base for 40 years while blocking every single attempt to actually do something effective.

Just thought these deserved repeating. Various efforts are made to make politicians look tough on illegal immigration. But the fact that the easy solution is not used is proof that they don't actually want to stop it. The Republicans do want to make sure that immigrants here illegally do not vote. They exaggerate the problem of illegal voting for political purposes. Of course Democrats would be happy to have the extra votes, but they can't try to increase this for obvious reasons.

That's because once we are forced to accept illegal aliens into the country without any apparent repercussions for them BREAKING THE LAW to get in here, all laws on the books become fogbound.
Laws are not enacted so the citizenry can pick and choose which to follow. You either have a system of laws that are followed, or you don't.
Continuing to allow illegal aliens to get into the country, and stay, will only serve to decimate the moral obligation to enforce every other law.
Here's a clue for you.
If you don't like the fuckin law, then work to have it changed.
See how easy that is?

bob2356 says

I am constantly stunned by the number of people, including a large number on patnet, who live their lives under a set of laws that they have no idea in the world how they are formulated, what they mean, or even what they say. Simply amazing.

And... NPR is droning on right now about how inhumane a border wall is, because it will force illegal immigrants to risk their lives in hot dangerous deserts to cross illegally into America.

Again, the left has this bizarre notion that the citizens of a different country are owed something by this country. They are owed nothing by America except speedy deportation.

One could argue that the wall is actually more humane as well, because if it is truly impossible to get in illegally, they won't even try to anymore.

rando says

One could argue that the wall is actually more humane as well, because if it is truly impossible to get in illegally, they won't even try to anymore.

That would be a poor argument because the wall will clearly not make it impossible to get in. A wall already exists in many areas and it has not been 100% effective.

Worked for Israel.

rando says

Worked for Israel.

How do you define "worked"? How much of their "success" do you attribute to the wall vs. other security measures?

joeyjojojunior says

How do you define "worked"? How much of their "success" do you attribute to the wall vs. other security measures?

You're right, we also need other security measures to catch and immediately deport those who dig tunnels and come up the coast in boats.

rando says

You're right, we also need other security measures to catch and immediately deport those who dig tunnels and come up the coast in boats.

Has the war on drugs taught us anything? If there is demand for something (cheap labor), supply will always find a way to fill it.

A war on immigration will be no better.

How about we address the demand side? If undocumented workers had no chance to find a better life here, they would stop coming. Immigration rates seem to show this.

rando says

NPR is droning on right now about how inhumane a border wall is, because it will force illegal immigrants to risk their lives in hot dangerous deserts to cross illegally into America.

I think that the most common argument against the wall is that it is not going to work (on it's own), and it will cost a lot up front and in maintenance. Personally, I don't think the cost is that great, but I have doubts that it will work well. It seems more like a political stunt coupled with a whopper of a lie about who is paying for it. The wall doesn't bother me as much as the fact that so many people bought the stupid line about Mexico paying for it, and got so excited by the prospect.

The bottom line is that Trump made some huge promises about border security and manufacturing jobs. He also made some, shall we say, hard to believe statements about taxes and the deficit. All I can say is 'good luck'.

bob2356 says

Never going to happen. Too much money would be lost without the illegals.

Dan8267 says

Unfortunate, but true.

YesYNot says

Just thought these deserved repeating.

Yet when somebody outside of the neocon-right chamber comes in and trying their best to break through this mold on both party sides, they gets attacked viciously by many who bemoan the decade long stalemate. This would be at least one reason to give Trump some credit (and that's one of the reasons why he is also being attacked by the deep state from both sides).

mell says

Yet when somebody outside of the neocon-right chamber comes in and trying their best to break through this mold on both party sides, they gets attacked viciously by many who bemoan the decade long stalemate. This would be at least one reason to give Trump some credit (and that's one of the reasons why he is also being attacked by the deep state from both sides).

Has Trump ever stated he will enforce the existing laws against hiring illegals?

rando says

NPR is droning on right now about how inhumane a border wall is, because it will force illegal immigrants to risk their lives in hot dangerous deserts to cross illegally into America.

Good choice of words: it reminds me of how quiet they were about the ongoing drone wars and related carnage in the middle east during and following "Hillary's War" in Libya, which enabled the American Deep State and Turkey to finance and arm Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, and the Islamic State in a misguided crusade to replace President Assad with a Sunni government. Hundreds of thousands were killed, but all the major media (whose role is to manufacture consent) could say was we need to import more Sunnis into NATO countries. To this day, NATO voters believe they're being compassionate when they bomb and invade Muslim countries and import the consequently displaced Sunni Muslims into NATO.

A lot of the migration from south of the border results from the ongoing "drug war." Note the symmetry: northern countries wage war in southern countries, driving cheap labor north to undermine wages. To distract from the horrifying carnage, complicit media focus only on the immediate needs of the most sympathetic of the many persons whom our policiies have injured and displaced.

'Pay no attention to cause and effect, never think through policy consequences, nothing to see here, move along.'

Patrick says

Press continues to destroy its own credibility with euphemisms for ILLEGAL immigrants

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to agree with you in the majority that didn't vote for Trump, or the far bigger majority that don't approve of the job he's doing.

Funny how that works. Why are you campaigning for him ? Is it just in case he gets his ministry of media that he doesn't shut Patrick.net down ?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/202811/trump-sets-new-low-point-inaugural-approval-rating.aspx?g_source=position1&g_medium=related&g_campaign=tiles

http://www.gallup.com/interactives/185273/presidential-job-approval-center.aspx?g_source=WWWV7HP&g_medium=topic&g_campaign=tiles

curious2 says

Hundreds of thousands were killed, but all the major media (whose role is to manufacture consent) could say was we need to import more Sunnis into NATO countries. To this day, NATO voters believe they're being compassionate when they bomb and invade Muslim countries and import the consequently displaced Sunni Muslims into NATO.

Crazy conspiracy thought: the bombing in Syria was deliberately intended to create refugees to import into Europe and the US.

marcus says

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to agree with you in the majority that didn't vote for Trump, or the far bigger majority that don't approve of the job he's doing.

Are any of them the same pollsters who claimed that Hillary would wipe floor with trump?

rando says

Syria was deliberately intended to create refugees to import into Europe and the US.

Well Saudi didn't take any; wonder why?

It's well known that Saudi funds initiatives to spread Islam across the world ; what better way than to use cozy relationship with IS to encourage them to take refugees and stick them in god forsaken places.

After all, can't have them staying in limousine liberal enclaves.

marcus says

Patrick says

Press continues to destroy its own credibility with euphemisms for ILLEGAL immigrants

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to agree with you

No, I'm pretty sure that most people can see that the press is approving of illegal immigration by refusing to call illegal immigrants by the correct term.

It's partisan, and it's literally anti-American. Literally literally.

I wonder, when are human trafficants going to start using submarines, or other floating methods.

rando says

No, I'm pretty sure that most people can see that the press is approving of illegal immigration by refusing to call illegal immigrants by the correct term.

So what you are saying is that the press is doing the same thing that the government, and more than half the people are doing ?

rando says

Crazy conspiracy thought: the bombing in Syria was deliberately intended to create refugees to import into Europe and the US.

That was literally part of the plan. The Clintons' Saudi clients wanted gas revenue and to spread Sunni Islam, including replacing Syria's Shia government with Sunnis. The Clintons' corporate clients in the MIC wanted the mass surveillance contracts that spreading Islam would require. Western European leaders wanted gas from someplace other than Russia, and more bodies to prop up rents and drive down wages. The refugees are pawns: their suffering doesn't even matter except to the extent that it can distract and manipulate the emotions of NATO voters to manufacture consent.

MMR says

Well Saudi didn't take any; wonder why?

Not exactly true - the number of Syrians totals 500,000 out of a population of 28m, and many of those have arrived since 2011 (though Saudi Arabia claims they've hosted 2.5m). That's quite a lot either way. The UAE says it has issued residency visas to more than 100,000 Syrians since 2011 with the total number of Syrians being 250,000 now. Call them refugees, call them guest workers, call them what you want, but that is a large number of people for them.
They don't share borders with Syria, so it's natural that most refugees have ended up in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (not Europe by the way) - those three are dealing with more than 4m in total - and a lot of that is being funded by the Gulf States.
They could do more, but it's not true to say that they are doing nothing.

Rashomon says

Not exactly true - the number of Syrians totals 500,000 out of a population of 28m, and many of those have arrived since 2011 (though Saudi Arabia claims they've hosted 2.5m). That's quite a lot either way. The UAE says it has issued residency visas to more than 100,000 Syrians since 2011 with the total number of Syrians being 250,000 now. Call them refugees, call them guest workers, call them what you want, but that is a large number of people for them.

They don't share borders with Syria, so it's natural that most refugees have ended up in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan (not Europe by the way) - those three are dealing with more than 4m in total - and a lot of that is being funded by the Gulf States.

They could do more, but it's not true to say that they are doing nothing.

Your are a fact spewing killjoy destroying a perfectly good sound bite. If people aren't free to spew bullshit without worrying about someone actually bringing up facts then what does freedom mean? Why are you against freedom? Unamerican is what it is, unamerican I tell you.

rando says

And... NPR is droning on right now about how inhumane a border wall is, because it will force illegal immigrants to risk their lives in hot dangerous deserts to cross illegally into America.

Again, the left has this bizarre notion that the citizens of a different country are owed something by this country. They are owed nothing by America except speedy deportation.

One could argue that the wall is actually more humane as well, because if it is truly impossible to get in illegally, they won't even try to anymore.

We have now heard from Voice of Trump. This just gets sillier and sillier. America's refusal to enforce it's own laws is already inhumane without creating a wall. When I was living in south texas a trucker simply walked away from a locked trailer full of illegals broiling in the south texas heat. Something like 20 died and the rest were lucky to survive. People die all the time, many very badly. All so some Trump crony can put more money in the bank and Americans can have even cheaper food so they won't be so under weight from the high cost of food.

Every single day you gladly enjoy the benefits of the people willing to die to get here to work crappy jobs in miserable conditions for very poor wages. Yet you say we owe them nothing. That's just shameful. Embarrassingly shameful.

No country in history has every kept anything out as long as there was demand for it. Never. Not once. North Korea has come closest. Is that the role model we are shooting for?

When is your trump god going to start enforcing the laws already on the books and go after the employers? The only way to actually stop illegals from coming. Otherwise it's all just a continuation of the same three card monty game that the conservatives have been playing on their base for 50 years. Laughing all the way to the bank. @patrick and the usual crew of patnet trumpbots are playing the mark nicely. You guys find the queen of hearts yet?

rando says

No, I'm pretty sure that most people can see that the press is approving of illegal immigration by refusing to call illegal immigrants by the correct term.

It's partisan, and it's literally anti-American. Literally literally.

Yes of course. It's partisan brainwashing. That's totally different from constantly firing up the base about getting rid of illegals while blocking any and all attempts to actually do it. Who is brainwashed here?

You are right here.
But immigration laws have to be enforced also. And if a wall adds to the security of the nation in a cost effective way, that should also be part of the plan.
You can't have it both ways. Either enforce the laws on the books, or support anarchy.

bob2356 says

When is your trump god going to start enforcing the laws already on the books and go after the employers?