patrick.net

Dan8267 says

You have admitted that sex changes are possible and that the gender listed on your birth certificate is not necessarily your current gender.

Ok, now you're just lying.

Just because you have surgery doesn't change your gender. Goddamn you can't read.

joshuatrio says

Same can be said for a guy who gets his penis whacked off in exchange for a fake vagina. This person is still.... A dude with a fake vagina

#loser

What I've learned from dan:

1) I'm insecure
2) I'm a bigot
3) Anyone can be a unicorn.
4) Doctors are wrong
5) Reality is not reality
6) Hypothetical science experiments must be accepted as valid arguments and you're a bigot for siding with reality.
7) Gluing wings on little boys makes them butterflies

joshuatrio says

It's a strawman, because your nonsense does not exist and is not a reality.

1. That's not what a straw man is. A straw man is a misrepresentation of your opponent's argument. I'm demanding that you show how your position handles a situation that will become common in the not-so-distant future.
2. A hypothetical situation is a perfectly valid illustration of why a position fails. If your position cannot handle possible future conditions, then your position is wrong.
3. Since we are debating principles, whether or not a particular scenario has happened is irrelevant. If a scenario can happen, then it can be used to question a principle.
4. It is cowardly to run and hide from a legitimate question your ideology cannot deal with. The honest man would simply admit the flaws in his ideology.

joshuatrio says

How can I acknowledge a hypothetical science experiment as anything other than what it is?

Honestly. And you are failing at that. You don't need the thought experiment to be performed in order to answer the question. You are running away and hiding from the contradictions in your ideology.

joshuatrio says

What I've learned from dan:

1) I'm insecure

This is true, but it is not a point that I made.

2) I'm a bigot

This is true and it's very relevant to your ideology and the contradictions in it.

3) Anyone can be a unicorn.

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

4) Doctors are wrong

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

5) Reality is not reality

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

6) Hypothetical science experiments must be accepted as valid arguments

Thought experiments are perfectly valid. Only an ignorant fool thinks otherwise. Some thought experiments have been utterly crucial in the advancement of science from classical physics to relativity to quantum mechanics.

www.youtube.com/embed/aYezkQ05cKg

A famous thought experiment was one proposed by Newton. Most people believe heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. This wrong belief persists even today. Yet a simple thought experiment demonstrates why this is wrong. If you have two identical bricks A and B, they would fall at the same rate. If you glue A and B together making a single brick of twice the weight, it would still fall at the exact same rate as the two constitute pieces. Therefore weight does not determine accelerating in a gravitational field.

You are simply wrong by stating that thought experiments have no value. The thought experiment I gave in this thread demonstrates that your ideology contains contradictions. These contradictions don't cease to exist simply because you have not encountered them empirically. The fact that you could encounter them in the field demonstrates that the contradictions exist.

6) continued: and you're a bigot for siding with reality.

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

7) Gluing wings on little boys makes them butterflies
I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

Meanwhile, you still have not honestly addressed the inherent contradictions of your ideology.

Dan8267 says

Meanwhile

I hope he has a tolerant supervisor for all the time he spends on social media.

Dan8267 says

That's not what a straw man is. A straw man is a misrepresentation of your opponent's argument.

Your argument regarding a hypothetical science experiment has nothing to do with gender. Especially since it does not exist. What you propose is a perfect example of a strawman, especially when you want me to acknowledge a new gender which does not and will not exist... so you can be like "GOTCHA."

FWIW: Anything created in a lab is a science experiment, not a new gender.

Dan8267 says

You are running away and hiding from the contradictions in your ideology.

Far from it. I've been consistent by saying the following.

1) When you are born, you are either male or female.
2) Just by hacking your junk off and/or wearing a dress, this doesn't make a man a woman.
3) I agree with my doctor friend in that transgendered people are mentally ill.

Sadly you have to argue a made up stem cell woman infused to a male person's body to make a point. Your buddy has to argue hallucinations in order to justify gender. Scary stuff.

You really need to go back to the basics.

A person born with a dick is a dude. A person born with a vag is a dudette. Putting lipstick on your broomstick doesn't make it a rake.

Welcome to reality Dan.

If you have a legitimate point to make other than a made up science experiment, please introduce it. Otherwise, you're either a cock or a vag.

P N Dr Lo R says

I hope he has a tolerant supervisor for all the time he spends on social media.

Unlike you, I make a lot of money for the company I work at. Also unlike you, it doesn't take me an hour to write a paragraph. You'd be surprise how quickly one can write if his mind is organized and his thoughts are clear.

FortWayne says

Crazy mental cases do crazy stupid shit, and demand we change laws to accommodate their sick reality. Sadly it's who liberal left and Democrats cater to.

Well said Wayne.

joshuatrio says

Your argument regarding a hypothetical science experiment has nothing to do with gender.

Calling my argument a science experiment does not make it a science experiment. Nor does it discredit the thought experiment. Furthermore, it absolutely has everything to do with this discussion. You are arguing that a person born male cannot, under any situation, ever become female. I gave you a perfectly valid example of a situation where that is not true. And we know that you agree it's not true because if you didn't you would have simply said that the person is male because Ryan Reynolds was born male. But you didn't because even you see the contradictions in your ideology. Nothing changes the fact that those contradictions exist and they prove your ideology is wrong.

The lowest bar an ideology has to meet is being self-consistent. If your ideology contradicts itself, then by mathematical definition, it is wrong. If you do not believe what you are saying, why should I or anyone else believe it?

joshuatrio says

1) When you are born, you are either male or female.

Mostly true, but there are exceptions call hermaphrodites, and these hermaphrodites make your statement false. In binary logic, a statement that is wrong 0.0000000001% of the time is a false statement.

joshuatrio says

2) Just by hacking your junk off and/or wearing a dress, this doesn't make a man a woman.

True, but that does not mean a person is stuck with the gender they were born into. The question is what constitutes maleness or femaleness. If we accept your shitty standard of the presence of a penis or a vagina, then a male who "chops off" his penis is no longer male. Similarly, a male who has a vagina created or transplanted into his body is a female. In fact, by the definition you propose, a person can be both male and female or neither male nor female, and surgery can change this.

If you say that a working penis or womb is the deciding criteria, then infertile men aren't male and infertile women aren't female. Try getting that put on a driver's license.

If you say that genetic code determines maleness or femaleness, you're still fucked over because of Chimeras. People can and do have two or more separate genomes in their bodies and those genomes don't have to have the same sex. Some of your cells could be XX and some could be XY. This happens when a twin of the opposite sex is absorbed into it's twin's body. This is a very real world situation and it has legal implications.

[stupid comment limit]

ABC News: She's Her Own Twin

Lydia Fairchild was a proud mother who faced the most unusual of challenges. She had to fight in court to prove the children born from her body were her own.

"I knew that I carried them, and I knew that I delivered them. There was no doubt in my mind," Fairchild said.

Fairchild's fight for her kids began when she was 26-years-old, unemployed and applying for public assistance in Washington state. Everyone in her family had to be tested to prove they were all related.

The Department of Social Services called Fairchild and told her to come in immediately. What Fairchild thought was a routine meeting with a social worker turned into an interrogation. The proud mother was suddenly a criminal suspect.

"As I sat down, they came up and shut the door, and they just went back and just started drilling me with questions like, 'Who are you?'" Fairchild said.

The DNA test results challenged everything she knew about her family. Yes, her boyfriend was the father of the children, and, yes, they were all related, according to the DNA, except for Fairchild. She was told she wasn't the mother.

Fairchild was certain a mistake must have been made, but she recalled a social worker saying to her, "Nope. DNA is 100 percent foolproof and it doesn't lie."

Fairchild was not only denied government assistance for her young children, she was now suspected of possibly acting as a paid surrogate mother and committing welfare fraud. She was in danger of having her kids taken away for good.

Fairchild said before she left, the social worker told her, "You know, we're able to come get your kids at any time."

Fairchild began to panic. She knew they were her kids. So she rushed home to search for photos of her pregnancy and found her children's birth certificates. She told her parents, who couldn't believe the test results.

"I thought she was joking but then she started crying on the phone. I said 'Oh, it's got to be a mistake. I was there when the kids were born. I saw them come out. I held them in my arms, you know,'" said Fairchild's mother, Carol Fairchild.

"I almost went insane inside. I couldn't imagine why if this could happen, my daughter is not a liar," said Fairchild's father, Rod Fairchild.

Fairchild called her obstetrician, Dr. Leonard Dreisbach. He was there for all the births and assured Fairchild he'd vouch for her in court.

"I would have told them that she certainly had these three kids, and that they were hers, and that I don't know what's wrong with the DNA testing, but I know that she had the kids," Dreisbach said.

But none of that seemed to matter, because DNA tests were considered infallible -- the gold standard in court. DNA showed that Fairchild's genetic makeup did not match that of her children.

To eliminate any chance of human error, new DNA tests were ordered from different labs. It was an agonizing wait, but the results were the same: The children weren't hers.

Fairchild knew then that she was close to losing her kids. After three court hearings, she said the judge looked at her and told her to find a lawyer.

After an extensive search, doctors found a sample of her thyroid tissue saved in a nearby lab in the Boston area. According to Uhl, this piece of tissue was the key to solving the medical mystery.

The DNA that would match her sons' DNA could have been anywhere in Keegan's body. But her thyroid was where she matched her sons' genetic code.

The mystery was solved. In a way, Keegan was her own twin.

"In her blood, she was one person, but in other tissues, she had evidence of being a fusion of two individuals," Uhl said.

It's a rare condition called chimerism, with only 30 documented cases worldwide. In Greek mythology, "chimera" means a monster: part goat, part lion, part snake.

In human biology, a chimera is an organism with at least two genetically distinct types of cells -- or, in other words, someone meant to be a twin. But while in the mother's womb, two fertilized eggs fuse, becoming one fetus that carries two distinct genetic codes -- two separate strands of DNA.

The twin is invisible, but for chimeras the twin lives microscopically inside the body as DNA.

Well, that just completely fucking blows away your binary thinking. A person can have multiple genomes in their body. At the celluar level, they can be both male and female.

So genetic code doesn't determine gender alone. The presence or absent of working or non-working genitals does not determine gender alone. What's left? Only the brain, and that's something which is quite malleable.

joshuatrio says

3) I agree with my doctor friend in that transgendered people are mentally ill.

Of course, you are a bigot and that's what bigots do. You will agree with anyone who confirms what you already believe. That does not carry any weight.

Once more I put the question to you.

Dan8267 says

Let's say I clone Scarlett Johansson's body with only a brain stem. I then take Ryan Reynold's brain and transplant it into the clone's body, is Ryan now male or female and why?

If you cannot easily and clearly answer this question and why even after all the time you had to think about it, then obviously you have no clue as to what determines maleness or femaleness. Maybe it's time you simply admitted that you don't know.

Dan, I've decided not to read your replies, because it's more bullshit. Rather than argue facts, you're arguing a fictional "science experiment."

I mentioned this thread to my wife. She nailed it when she said this:

"Honey, I want to be a duck. I'm going to have surgery done to web my toes, and feathers surgically attached to my body. Now I'm a duck."

Sorry buddy, your wrong.

The medical community disagrees with you, and your leftist feminists disagree with you.

Tonight I plan on banging my wife. Believe it or not, she's 100% real, with a real vagina and real tits (she's hot btw).

You can think of me while you consider chopping off your penis to become something you'll never actually be.

I'm sorry you don't like reality. Best of luck Dan.

joshuatrio says

People do not get to decide which gender they are born with.

Joshiatrio - if a person is born with both a penis and a vagina, and has not altered either one, what binary are they?

joshuatrio says

Dan, I've decided not to read your replies, because it's more bullshit.

That's a lie. You now realize that you have no responses and cannot fake it anymore.

joshuatrio says

Rather than argue facts, you're arguing a fictional "science experiment."

You can repeat that lie all you want. It's already been debunked.

1. It's not a science experiment.
2. Thought experiments are valid counter-arguments.
3. The contradictions the thought experiment exposes in your ideology exist regardless of whether or not the thought experiment is carried out.
4. It is inevitable that either the exact situation the thought experiment describes or an equivalent condition will happen in the not-so-distant future.
5. Chimeras also demonstrate the contradictions in your ideology.
6. It is dishonesty and the inability to fix the contradictions in your ideology that causes you to dodge the points made by the thought experiment.

Man, at least have the honesty to admit your ideology cannot handle these situations. That's like the lowest possible bar in honest discourse.

joshuatrio says

I mentioned this thread to my wife. She nailed it when she said this:

"Honey, I want to be a duck. I'm going to have surgery done to web my toes, and feathers surgically attached to my body. Now I'm a duck."

Sorry buddy, your wrong.

No, your analogy is wrong. If I rebuild your body at the cellular level into a duck, you're a fucking duck. If I transplant your brain into a duck's body, your new body is a duck. The question is whether or not your mind is a duck. I'd say no. But then a duck's brain being transplanted into a human body doesn't make the duck's brain human even though the duck has a human body. So now, you have to accept that a person's mind can have a different gender than his or her body, and that's the whole fucking point of the transgender movement.

#lawyered

joshuatrio says

Tonight I plan on banging my wife. Believe it or not, she's 100% real, with a real vagina and real tits (she's hot btw).

You can think of me while you consider chopping off your penis to become something you'll never actually be.

If you are so delusional to believe that I'm transgender or interested in becoming transgender, then why should I believe your wife is hot? You clearly have no grasp on reality.

One does not have to be transgender to admit truths about gender. Objective reality is independent of political agenda or personal experience. You are being tribal in assuming that only transgender persons would point out that you are completely wrong and your ideology is self-contradicting. That's not a transgender thing. It's a math thing.

joshuatrio says

I'm sorry you don't like reality.

Oh honey, the only one of us who has trouble with reality here is you. It is entirely because I believe in truthfully representing reality that I pointed out how flawed and contradictory your ideology is and how it does not handle real world cases like chimeras or not-so-distant futures involving more sophisticated reshaping of the human body. Reality isn't defined as whatever your political ideology wants. Reality is objective and independent of political and social desires. You demonstrate the exact same flaws in self-delusion that the left exhibits thus once again proving that the conservative left and the conservative right are the same.

Therafin says

Joshiatrio - if a person is born with both a penis and a vagina, and has not altered either one, what binary are they?

He won't answer this question. He cannot. Even attempting to answer the question of hermaphrodites exposes the contradictions in his ideology and its incompatibly with reality. Even acknowledging the existence of human hermaphrodites concedes the point that gender is not always binary.

Watch. Even though I just wrote the above paragraph and effectively challenged him to answer that question, he still won't. He cannot. Nor can he admit he does not have an answer.

joshuatrio says

FortWayne says

Crazy mental cases do crazy stupid shit, and demand we change laws to accommodate their sick reality. Sadly it's who liberal left and Democrats cater to.

Well said Wayne.

Am I the only one who finds it hard to respect the opinion of someone who things that FortWayne is well-spoken?

01010111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00111111

Someday we will all be able to pick not only our gender but our body type, ethnicity, and many other physical attributes. In vivo genetic editing will someday be a reality. But until then, let's not write laws with gigantic loopholes for sexual predators to abuse. You wanna be weird and try to artificially transform into another gender? Fine. Just don't expect the laws of society to change to fit your madness.

Quigley says

But until then, let's not write laws with gigantic loopholes for sexual predators to abuse.

Not remotely applicable to this thread or driver's licenses.

All multi-valued logic can be brought back to binary logic.

Heraclitusstudent says

All multi-valued logic can be brought back to binary logic.

Wrong. Rational numbers are algebraic to integers and thus binary code. Irrational numbers can be algebraic or transcendental to the integers, and there are an infinite number of each. It's a math thing.

Now binary can approximate transcendental number and that may be good enough for government work.