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1 lostand confused   ignore (0)   2017 Aug 18, 1:15am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

So do you lefties support getting rid of Mt Rushmore, Jefferson/Washington statues? Do you think it will stop there, where will this craziness stop?

2 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 8:34am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

I have to give Gingrich and Trump credit, because they provoked some people to call for the removal of those statues. He's good at trolling, and his audience loves it when he catches something.

For me, it is an of course not. It would be nice if the gov offered to provide money to finish the Crazy Horse monument, but I doubt they would accept it. A more realistic battle is over the confederate memorial in Arlington cemetery, which I think probably ought to stay.

3 TwoScoopsMcGee   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 8:36am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Democratic Leaders must disavow.

It's been a while since this call came out, from a high traffic website.

Why won't Pelosi, Booker, and Harris disavow? Do they support removing Mt. Rushmore? We demand a disavowal now! No more Delay!

4 Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 8:39am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

lostand confused says

Vice magazine-get rid of Mt Rushmore-black caucas exective calls for removal of jefferson , Washington statues

Now it's going too far. Don't Blacks realize Jefferson and Washington are their ancestors?

5 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 8:57am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Strategist says

Don't Blacks realize Jefferson and Washington are their ancestors?

You may have been making a joke, but I don't think that makes much of a difference. At least some of Lee and Jackson's ancestors were in favor of taking those memorials down and putting them in a museum. http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/robert-e-lees-grandson-comments-on-statue-removal/index.html

6 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 9:03am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

lostand confused says

What is next seizing money from any non black to give reparations??

Reparations should have been given immediately after the Civil War. If they had been and the blacks were allowed to integrate into society, then none of the racial problems or related crimes we are dealing with today would be happening. It would have been damn cheaper than what we've already spent dealing with the symptoms of the problems.

However, since slavery was the product of the south as was most of the oppression after the Civil War, it's really only the south that needs to be taxed to pay for the damage it did to America. Particularly tax the rich in the South since they got to keep their ill-gotten gains from slavery.

7 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 9:05am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

lostand confused says

So do you lefties support getting rid of Mt Rushmore, Jefferson/Washington statues?

Jefferson and Washington were child rapists and slavers, so yes. I don't think we should glorify child rapists no matter how common child rape was in their time. Most people still didn't rape children. And even if most people did, it would still be inexcusable. It's not like those rapists didn't realize that raping a child is morally wrong.

8 Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 9:14am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Reparations should have been given immediately after the Civil War. If they had been and the blacks were allowed to integrate into society, then none of the racial problems or related crimes we are dealing with today would be happening. It would have been damn cheaper than what we've already spent dealing with the symptoms of the problems.

Sounds like an excuse. Blacks of today have every opportunity to progress and integrate. Why don't they?

9 Ceffer   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 11:04am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

What next? Pyramids for human sacrifices and animism?

10 iwog   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 11:12am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Jefferson and Washington were child rapists and slavers, so yes. I don't think we should glorify child rapists no matter how common child rape was in their time. Most people still didn't rape children. And even if most people did, it would still be inexcusable. It's not like those rapists didn't realize that raping a child is morally wrong.

1. I don't consider a slave owner having consensual sex with a slave who has become of age to be rape. If you have a case of actual rape by either Washington or Jefferson, I'd like to hear it.
2. People are heavily a product of their times. For example I consider many family court decisions to be an atrocity to human dignity, often resulting in child abuse and women who would be labeled criminals in any other culture receiving rewards for her crimes. However I am a product of my time and despite an incident that happened in my own extended family, I would not risk my freedom to do the right thing.
3. People like Washington and Jefferson are essential to national identity and shared history. They aren't only admired in the USA but many leaders worldwide have studied them extensively and sung their praises. Tearing them down to suit moral outrage is extremely dangerous and results in a country that has nothing to protect. The damage to the constitution is bad enough but making villains out of the founding fathers would be the last nail in the coffin.

11 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 11:25am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

iwog says

Tearing them down to suit moral outrage is extremely dangerous and results in a country that has nothing to protect.

Rejecting them in full is the same as rejecting our country and the constitution. The constitution contained in it the 3/5th compromise. We don't throw the whole thing out. We just amend it, and recognize that it was a great but imperfect document. We merely have to accept that even the founding fathers were not perfect, which should be self evident. This is unfortunately too complex of a thought for many people to understand. We do not have do demand perfection from every historical figure. We just need to make a point to stop celebrating the confederacy and what it represented. Even taking down statues of Lee isn't erasing him or declaring him entirely evil. It's just recognizing a mistake for what it was. Even Lee didn't want statues of himself erected.

12 TwoScoopsMcGee   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 12:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Why won't Harris, Booker, Pelosi disavow the Vice Article?

How come the glorious 5th Column 4th Estate not holding them accountable.

Baltimore just removed the 5th Chief SCOTUS from the State House, however shitty most of his rulings were.

13 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:00pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (2)     quote        

Strategist says

Sounds like an excuse. Blacks of today have every opportunity to progress and integrate. Why don't they?

Getting shot by police puts a damper on your economic prospects as well as your children's. Also being arrested for doing a drug that is only illegal to make sure the people of your race cannot vote also puts a damper on those prospects.

Of course a large part of the blame is with the individuals, but there are so many individuals with ghetto culture because of the economic despair, legal actions, and prevention of assimilating brought on by race isolationists.

14 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

iwog says

1. I don't consider a slave owner having consensual sex with a slave who has become of age to be rape.

Yeah, and slaves who are threaten with beatings, engagement, whipping, and murder of themselves and their family members are really free to say no to the master's demands. So why were they consenting to the whippings and the harsh living conditions and the unpaid labor?

15 WineHorror   ignore (0)   2017 Aug 18, 2:03pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Ceffer says

What next? Pyramids for human sacrifices and animism?

Leftists are destroyers because the success others have only stands to remind them, constantly, of their on inability to succeed. Sad, so sad.

16 BlueSardine   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:16pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

This would be a good way to operationally verify our nuclear stockpile
TwoScoopsMcGee says

Do they support removing Mt. Rushmore?

17 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

iwog says

People are heavily a product of their times

Yes, including Hitler. The conditions that made a fuhrer possible were not created by Hitler. They were created by the allies after WWI. But even if we forgave Hitler for being a little murderous shit because he lived in a time that shaped him into that, do we really have to look up to him as a hero?

The bottom line is that the product itself is not heroic even if you think the behavior is acceptable for the time, which you shouldn't. Just because a lot of people in a time commit the worst atrocities of all human history, does not mean those people are completely unaware that they are doing horrific things to others. I'm willing to give you some moral relativism, but not that ridiculous amount.

The Catholic clergy live in a time (the 20th and 21st century) when it was common for the clergy to molest children. Does that make it acceptable? Are today's common crimes excusable because they are common? Is Jihad excusable because jihadists are common and they come from a culture that promotes Jihad?

iwog says

People like Washington and Jefferson are essential to national identity and shared history.

Actually, no, they are not. First off, we only have stupid, inaccurate, cartoonify images of them. Second, they did not live by the ideas they wrote about. Third, America would not fail or cease to exist simply because we put the 18th century to bed and stop romanticizing and whitewashing our history.

iwog says

They aren't only admired in the USA but many leaders worldwide have studied them extensively and sung their praises.

If those praises are not deserved, it is better they are not given.

Value the ideas, not the hypocrites who failed to live by them. Base you identity on living by those ideas. Base our nation in the fulfillment of those ideas instead of lip service to them. Real patriotism isn't waving a flag, but not compromising on liberty when it is not convenient or profitable.

iwog says

Tearing them down to suit moral outrage is extremely dangerous and results in a country that has nothing to protect.

Completely false. But hey, let's test that idea. You are right if we tear down all those statues and the entire military and police disband as a result since they no longer care about protecting America's borders, profits, citizens, children. I'm willing to bet that won't happen.

Our existence is not contingent on the adoration of persons who do not reflect the values they wrote about or that we claim to hold. Removing the statues does not in any way hinder teaching real American history -- in fact, it helps teaching history because it keeps history accurate instead of turning it into propaganda. The removal of those statues and the adoration of the founding fathers is not an existential threat to America. Climate change is. Nuclear war is. The war on drugs is. The continuing dependency on Middle East oil is. The military industrial complex is. There are real existential threats to America, but not hero-worshiping slavers isn't one of them.

iwog says

The damage to the constitution is bad enough but making villains out of the founding fathers would be the last nail in the coffin.

We should acknowledge what the real actions of the founding fathers were. If their actions makes them out to be villains, then so be it. They made their bed. They had the freedom to live however they wanted and to act however they pleased. It's too late for them to change that, and we should not compromise the integrity of history by pretending they were something other than what they actually were.

Reality is important. Historical honesty is important. It is far better to grasp history as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

18 BlueSardine   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Im positive dan considers this a plus...
iwog says

The damage to the constitution is bad enough but making villains out of the founding fathers would be the last nail in the coffin.

19 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Here's a thought. If the nationalists who want the statues to remain were to experience every pain, every injustice inflicted on the victims of the persons portrayed in the statues, then not a single one of them would want the statues to remain. If those nationalists experienced every rape by Washington as experience by his victim, the very site of Washington statue would throw them into a violent rage. Maybe the real solution to such delusional nationalists is for some time travel to record the experiences form the victims' brains and then play them back in the nationalists' brains. I suspect nothing short of that would get the nationalists to feel empathy.

20 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

BlueSardine says

Im positive dan considers this a plus...

iwog says

The damage to the constitution is bad enough but making villains out of the founding fathers would be the last nail in the coffin.

Feel free to justify why glorifying child rapists is better.

21 iwog   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 2:23pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Yeah, and slaves who are threaten with beatings, engagement, whipping, and murder of themselves and their family members are really free to say no to the master's demands. So why were they consenting to the whippings and the harsh living conditions and the unpaid labor?

You're making some assumptions here. There's no evidence that I know of that Jefferson beat anyone. It's possible they were beaten however so were most of the children of the era. So were wives. So were husbands if they let their wives run the household. Beatings were punishment and everyone got some. I'm going to talk about Jefferson exclusively because I've been to Monticello and the way it's set up was more like a small village than a plantation. At the time it was illegal for free blacks to travel in Virginia and it's possible that they would have been treated much worse had he allowed them to leave. He obviously had a relationship with Sally Hemmings and I seriously doubt that she'd call anything they did together rape.

So did either of these men rape a woman? There's absolutely no evidence to support it.

22 iwog   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 2:25pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

iwog says

People are heavily a product of their times

Yes, including Hitler.

Concentration camps were not a societal norm. Neither was executing homosexuals. Neither was executing the mentally ill. Neither was trying to take over the world. I think it's disingenuous to say Hitler was simply going along with society.

23 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 2:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

iwog says

You're making some assumptions here. There's no evidence that I know of that Jefferson beat anyone.

It's a damn reasonable assumption, and even if Jefferson himself did not beat slaves, his government that he built most certainly made it the law that slaves could be beaten and that government enforced the institution of slavery. Saying that Jefferson is not responsible is like saying Hitler is not responsible for the Holocaust because he never personally gassed any Jew.

iwog says

Beatings were punishment and everyone got some.

Wives were not typically beaten to death to serve as an example. Nor where they whipped to with whips that literally tore off chunks of flesh. You are painting slavery as a minor evil were people were lightly coerced into performing labor. In reality it was a great evil that could only exist with constant terror inflicted by torturing slaves in front of other slaves. When you acknowledge the real degree of the atrocities, you cannot excuse anyone who participated in those atrocities.

To put it in perspective, there is nothing in the Islamic world today that even comes close to how horrific slavery was and what the slavers did. This includes every beheading, every bomb, every truck running over people. The American slavers were far worse than all of that put together. And again, all the things Islamists do is perfectly normal and common and encouraged in their culture. If it helps, when you think of Jefferson, imaging an Arab Muslim in his place. Same time, same actions, just now a Muslim.

iwog says

So did either of these men rape a woman?

Again, even if he did not -- which is highly unlikely -- he certainly created a government that enabled others to do so with impunity. In any case, given Stockholm Syndrome and the fact that Sally Hemmings would be far worse off if she didn't comply with his wishes, I don't see you making a convincing case.

And just think about human nature. Even today, there are damn few 14 to 30-year-olds males who would not force women to have sex with them if they could do so with zero legal, social, and economic consequences. Are you really going to make the case that 18th century young men were less horny or more moral than their 21st century counterparts? That's a big pill to swallow.

A man as rich and powerful as Jefferson with female slaves at his beck and call, and he's not going to take sexual advantage of that? He's not going to say anything that makes the terrified 14-year-old girl think that she or her family will be severely punished if she doesn't put out "willingly"? That's a ridiculous proposition.

iwog says

Concentration camps were not a societal norm. Neither was executing homosexuals.

It most certainly was in Nazi Germany. Also, Jihad is perfectly a societal norm in the modern Muslim world. If you are to be consistent in your philosophy, you must also judge Jihadists in the context of their world, their culture, their society, their religion. You would have to conclude that Jihadists are not bad. Are you willing to make that leap?

And if you do not accept your criteria for moral relativism, then why should anyone else?

24 Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 3:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Sounds like an excuse. Blacks of today have every opportunity to progress and integrate. Why don't they?

Getting shot by police puts a damper on your economic prospects as well as your children's. Also being arrested for doing a drug that is only illegal to make sure the people of your race cannot vote also puts a damper on those prospects.

Of course a large part of the blame is with the individuals, but there are so many individuals with ghetto culture because of the economic despair, legal actions, and prevention of assimilating brought on by race isolationists.

One excuse after another.
Who is to blame for the father abandoning children. Dropping out of school. Committing crime. Rioting and looting.
Blacks need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. Where are the fucking leaders of the Black community? Oh yeah, Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are busy blackmailing corporation, and spending the loot on luxury mansions. Where the hell is Obama? How come he refuses to help his sons?

25 Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 3:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

iwog says

Dan8267 says

Jefferson and Washington were child rapists and slavers, so yes. I don't think we should glorify child rapists no matter how common child rape was in their time. Most people still didn't rape children. And even if most people did, it would still be inexcusable. It's not like those rapists didn't realize that raping a child is morally wrong.

1. I don't consider a slave owner having consensual sex with a slave who has become of age to be rape.

You think a 12 year old slave girl had any choice? Really?
2 scenarios, which scenario makes the most sense?
1. The slave girl snuck into the masters bedroom and seduced the old man.
2. The master walked into the frightened little girls hut and raped her.

26 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 3:55pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Strategist says

One excuse after another.

Bullshit. What your doing is no different than saying that the cop who was assassinated for being a cop deserved it and those who say otherwise are making excuses. You should really play back your messages pretending they are being said by the other team regarding your team and you'll see how despicable those messages are.

Strategist says

Who is to blame for the father abandoning children.

Fuck blame. I don't give a shit about moral condemnation and chest thumping on this issue. Moral condemnation only has value when you are trying to disincentive immoral behavior.

What matters in this problem is cause and effect. What are the reasons that black Americans
- commit more violent crime
- become less educated
- are more dependent on the state
- remain poor generation after generation

There are many reasons, but to say it's all the blacks' fault and white people in government and banking had nothing to do with it is utter bullshit.

And here's the thing about problems. If you don't know the cause of the problems, you probably can't do shit to fix them. And that means you'll have to keep paying the costs of those problems. So unless you want to keep being taxed to pay for social services and anti-poverty programs, chuck your racist worldview and just look to fix the damn problems. Think like an engineer, not a politician.

27 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 18, 3:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Strategist says

2 scenarios, which scenario makes the most sense?

1. The slave girl snuck into the masters bedroom and seduced the old man.

2. The master walked into the frightened little girls hut and raped her.

Obviously the latter. No slave is going to sneak up to the master. He or she would be killed immediately.

And the rape does not have to take place in the hut. It can still take place in the house.

Do you really think that male slavers did not rape female slaves? Are you that divorced from reality that you cannot realize that this would be common, and it would be a damn rare exception when that's not the case? Or do you think male humans only evolved a strong sex drive after 1865?

28 marcus   ignore (0)   2017 Aug 18, 4:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

I give Dan credit for realizing that in order to be logically consistent in his condemnation of General Lee, and all confederates, he should also condemn Washington and Jefferson. But that's where he loses anyone who might have agreed with him about Lee and the white southerners who feel some historic (and non racist) connection to the confederacy.

29 Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 18, 5:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

Fuck blame. I don't give a shit about moral condemnation and chest thumping on this issue. Moral condemnation only has value when you are trying to disincentive immoral behavior.

What matters in this problem is cause and effect. What are the reasons that black Americans

- commit more violent crime

- become less educated

- are more dependent on the state

- remain poor generation after generation

There are many reasons, but to say it's all the blacks' fault and white people in government and banking had nothing to do with it is utter bullshit.

And here's the thing about problems. If you don't know the cause of the problems, you probably can't do shit to fix them.

So what are the reasons? I gave you lots of reasons.

30 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 19, 3:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

marcus says

But that's where he loses anyone who might have agreed with him about Lee and the white southerners who feel some historic (and non racist) connection to the confederacy.

Sometimes you have to put right before popular, and truth before agreement. Actually, make that all the time.

31 Ceffer   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 19, 6:03pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

I wonder how many American blacks had ancestors who were slave owners in Africa.

32 Strategist   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 19, 6:43pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Ceffer says

I wonder how many American blacks had ancestors who were slave owners in Africa.

Probably all of them. Slavery in Africa was common for thousands of years.

34 YesYNot   ignore (1)   2017 Aug 19, 6:51pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

marcus says

logically consistent in his condemnation of General Lee, and all confederates, he should also condemn Washington and Jefferson

Its necessary to condemn the action but it's not logically necessary to put those two in the same bucket.

35 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Aug 19, 9:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (1)     quote        

Ceffer says

I wonder how many American blacks had ancestors who were slave owners in Africa.

Quite a few as raping female slaves was common. That does not excuse glorifying the rapists.

36 PeopleUnited   ignore (2)   2017 Sep 6, 8:58pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Dan8267 says

iwog says


People are heavily a product of their times



Yes, including Hitler. The conditions that made a fuhrer possible were not created by Hitler. They were created by the allies after WWI. But even if we forgave Hitler for being a little murderous shit because he lived in a time that shaped him into that, do we really have to look up to him as a hero?



If Hitler had a part in making the world a better place despite his flaws then yes, he is worthy of admiration. (NOTE: He did not make the world a better place and he is not worthy of admiration).

On the other hand George Washington and Thomas Jefferson DID make the world a better place despite their flaws, and they ARE worthy of admiration.

It is you who are attempting to whitewash history by demonizing men for their flaws rather than recognizing the important influence they had on making the world a better place.
37 FortWayne   ignore (1)   2017 Sep 6, 9:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

Any idiot on the left can tear down, brain not required.
38 Ceffer   ignore (1)   2017 Sep 6, 11:32pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

It wouldn't take much carving skill to make the Rushmore faces look like Dworkin Golem and three other immense hirsute lesbians.
39 Dan8267   ignore (3)   2017 Sep 7, 7:08pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)     quote        

PeopleUnited says
It is you who are attempting to whitewash history by demonizing men for their flaws rather than recognizing the important influence they had on making the world a better place.


Whitewashing is, by definition, making something horrific seem less so. You're not even using English right.

However, I've never stated that Thomas Jefferson and the Confederates are the same. Yes, one can make the case that Jefferson and Washington are honored for starting a nation despite having severe flaws, whereas the confederate statues are glorifying the very evil acts of slavery. I have never stated that there is an equivalency between statues of Jefferson and statues of Confederates. However, I have stated that there is sufficient cause to judge both Washington and Jefferson as unworthy of honor because of their slave owning and slave raping ways.

If you want to debate me on this issue, then fine. Go right ahead. You'll lose.

But first, you might want to imagine how you would feel if one of your not-so-distant ancestors was repeated raped by one of these men. How would you feel paying for a statue honoring that rapist and seeing every day in front of a courthouse. You might be a little bit upset over that.

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