patrick.net

Sniper says

Really, their tax level doesn't change and they lose the ability to deduct all their property taxes?

Which pales in comparison to the AMT and estate tax going away.

BayArea says

No, it's up to $500K loan amount. So if you bought a house in CA for $626,250, put 20% down, and financed $501K, you would get the interest deduction up to the $500K loan amount.

Got it. Makes sense. I misinterpreted. I don't interest myself with that part of the tax code too much. I have no interest in being tied to a $500k mortgage even if I owned a $2M house let alone having up to a $1M mortgage. I get the tax benefits, but hate housing debt to the max. Outside of uber wealthy CA areas and East coast areas, you can get a pretty nice house for $500k or under pretty much anywhere and that usually mean a $350k or less mortgage. And you of course get to write it off, unless you have a really small mortgage and don't itemize.

People again get lost in details, when all one needs to know is this:

1. Most of the cuts are to benefit the rich.

2. They are not paid for by cost reductions, because meaningful cost reductions are only possible if the military budget is slashed.

3. Therefore, the poor and the middle class will pay for 1. in one way or another, now or later.

Anybody who is not rich but approves these tax changes is an idiot.

Sniper says

How about backing that up.

Check who our politicians are and who they are owned by.

And Sniper, you omited to include in your list that the personal exemptions will be eliminated.

That would be a big loss for families with children - for some more than the increase of the standard deduction.

Sniper says

How about backing that up. You guys are long on the hyperbole but short on defending your bullshit with proof.

This is why the site is going to hell. He's demanding proof that most of the tax cuts are going to the rich? The total elimination of the AMT and the very likely elimination of all estate taxes isn't enough? Allowing business owners to cap their taxes at 25% isn't enough? Drastically lowering corporate taxes isn't enough? You need someone to prove a case that most of the tax cuts will benefit the rich?

How about you prove anything you've ever written on any website? I've never seen it happen once.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/winners-and-losers-in-the-gop-tax-plan/?tid=pm_pop&utm_term=.b29175e09e06
Winners:

Super rich.

Did I miss something or did sniper just prove the tax cuts are just for the ultra-rich? That was a really weird post he just made.

Sniper says

Because pussies like you hide behind Anon?

LOL. And your parents named you Sniper?

The fact that the NAR hates this plan is enough for me to like it.

Booger says

The fact that the NAR hates this plan is enough for me to like it.

I don't understand what you mean. Do you have a picture with Hillary saying it? That will help get the point across

Booger says

The fact that the NAR hates this plan is enough for me to like it.

LOL, I felt exactly the same way.

I was reading through the tax plan and as soon as I found out that the NAR is in an uproar over this, I was overcome with relief that maybe it's not such a bad plan after all!

BayArea says

I was reading through the tax plan and as soon as I found out that the NAR is in an uproar over this, I was overcome with relief that maybe it's not such a bad plan after all!

Yeah, but the only thing they saw was the $1M to $500k reduction in the mortgage interest deduction. So they have no clue what else is in the plan. Just say the words "mortgage interest deduction" in front of a Realtor and be ready to be buggy whipped. They don't even care if what you're about to say is positive. That's their baby and you can't say nothing bad about it.

Does anyone care to take a stab at this:

How does the corporate tax dropping from 35% to 20% affect the middle class?

BayArea says

Does anyone care to take a stab at this:

How does the corporate tax dropping from 35% to 20% affect the middle class?

It helps those that are invested in the stock market a bit probably, but otherwise very little.

BayArea says

How does the corporate tax dropping from 35% to 20% affect the middle class?

It doesn't -talking points tot he usual suspects. I am liking the plan so far.
Still can't find anything about the dreaded FATCA.

This will be a total wash for us.... any savings in our taxes will be lost by not being able to deduct our CA state taxes. The past two years we’ve written off about $40k. Without state tax deduction we might end up just taking the 24k standard deductions. Might still get $27k if we itemize.

One thing I was surprised by was the child tax credit doubled and income was raised to $230k before phase out. But then they got rid of the FSA $5000k deduction so they cancel out.

It’s all gonna be crumbs for any families making under $250k. We would have to double our income to see any tangible benefits. Don’t see that happening.

If the economy doesn’t improve in the next 7 years of trumps presidency... cough cough...can we finally trickle down a myth once and for all?

GOP tax plan to collect TAXES!
SOCIALISM! & Republican voters will continue to pay taxes.

BayArea says

Does anyone care to take a stab at this:

How does the corporate tax dropping from 35% to 20% affect the middle class?

Dropping the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% is a significant drop. It will boost corporate investment into new factories, research etc, provide jobs and make us more competitive with the rest of the world. Even foreign corporations will invest more in the US.
To answer your question, the tax drop will help the middle class by spurring the economy in the years to come.

im not getting any so-called "cuts" at all while the rich gets billions and millions back.

fuck this plan.

Strategist says

BayArea says

Does anyone care to take a stab at this:

How does the corporate tax dropping from 35% to 20% affect the middle class?

Dropping the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% is a significant drop. It will boost corporate investment into new factories, research etc, provide jobs and make us more competitive with the rest of the world.

The children here that go to work all day to run in their hampster wheels don't understand how a business runs. A business can only split the "pie" in so many ways. By reducing it's tax burden, it frees up capital for use in other areas like, hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc.

I know what some of these knuckleheads will come back and say "that tax savings will only go into the owner's pocket". Ready in 5, 4, 3, ...

Strategist says

Dropping the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% is a significant drop. It will boost corporate investment into new factories, research etc, provide jobs and make us more competitive with the rest of the world. Even foreign corporations will invest more in the US.

No it wont and this is just ridiculous. The problem with America is first world wages. Not high corporate taxes which most corporations have figured out how to avoid anyway. Every part of this new law is BS.

Sniper says

A business can only split the "pie" in so many ways. By reducing it's tax burden, it frees up capital for use in other areas like, hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc.

That's how it works at Apple and Google right? Oh wait no, all that extra cash just gets hoarded. The extra profits will either be paid out in dividends or used for stock buybacks that will increase the share price to put even more money into the pockets of the rich.

anon_25c83 says

That's how it works at Apple and Google right?

Is Apple and Google the only companies in the country?

Strategist says

It will boost corporate investment into new factories, research etc, provide jobs

Nonsense. Do you know what over investment means?

Sniper says

Is Apple and Google the only companies in the country?

They are examples of how there is too much capital and not enough demand. Google has over 100 billion dollars of cash. Don't you think that maybe they would invest it if they saw a way to make money?

Sniper says

The children here that go to work all day to run in their hampster wheels don't understand how a business runs. A business can only split the "pie" in so many ways. By reducing it's tax burden, it frees up capital for use in other areas like, hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc.

I know what some of these knuckleheads will come back and say "that tax savings will only go into the owner's pocket". Ready in 5, 4, 3, ...

If you had ever run a business you'd know that owners don't hire people simply because they have more after tax profits. That is completely illogical and not even worthy of discussion.

Actual business owners know that you hire when, by hiring, you can produce more product, generate more revenue, and ultimately more profits.

Hell, most of the things you list there are pre-tax anyway.

Sniper says

. By reducing it's tax burden, it frees up capital for use in other areas like, hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc.

Corporations have record profits and record amounts of money in the bank for " hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc." already.

Don't let facts screw you up.

joeyjojojunior says

Actual business owners know that you hire when, by hiring, you can produce more product, generate more revenue, and ultimately more profits

There are two sides to this. I will agree for the most part. For example, if I am running a company and I make 5 million in profits and now make 10 million-that will not impact hiring. I will hire only when I see good business conditions, sales people that may increase revenue etc etc. it varies.

Also the 35% -I don't think any company paid that. I beleive GE was paying close to or even 0%.

However this will help prevent inversions-no one will change their base to say London or Ireland to take advantage of taxes. Also without the tax shenannigans and the territorial tax system, corporates can bring their money in without worry about the high taxes here. If you are doing your business in low cost countries, you can't bring it here as it will be taxed at the 35% rate-minus expenses and tax paid there.

Now at 20% I doubt many companies will worry and it will allow companies like say Apple to bring 10s of billions back to America. It could-theoretically-add trillions.


Most middle class will get a cut. The impact will be high tax states -people who make 200k+ and have the 1.5 million dolalr shack. Those will actually be grandfathered in -so no big deal for them-assuming they put 500k or so down and have a millio dolalr mortgage. But if the huge supply of Chinese buyers dries up and people need mortgages, that 1.5 million crap shack will be a waste. In states like IL, property taxes on homes that are say 600k or 800k can be a shigh as 23k or more-so thos epeople will not help at all-as they are working and now paying almost 6%.. But that is an IL problem and people may just bail out completely. This may be the catalyst to the housing crash??

Howeevr this si the higher end of middle class-bottom end of rich. The rich -looks like tax rate stays at 39%.

Businesses pass through is at 25%-which may be a boon to high income business owners.

I am still trying to ind if the territorial system extends to individuals too and FATCA will be stomped and thrown out-another legacy of the incompetent Obama.

But overall, the people who will be affected are the high end income owners . They may just double the exemption to say 20k for state and property taxes-at which point there will be very few that will be impacted. Well except IL and maybe NJ.

lostand confused says

However this will help prevent inversions-no one will change their base to say London or Ireland to take advantage of taxes. Also without the tax shenannigans and the territorial tax system, corporates can bring their money in without worry about the high taxes here. If you are doing your business in low cost countries, you can't bring it here as it will be taxed at the 35% rate-minus expenses and tax paid there.

Now at 20% I doubt many companies will worry and it will allow companies like say Apple to bring 10s of billions back to America. It could-theoretically-add trillions.

I understand what you're saying, but as a practical matter--what does that really accomplish? Apple is able to get whatever cash they need in the US to invest in whatever they want. I don't think anyone can argue that US investment was hampered because companies hoarded cash overseas to avoid US taxes. All it does is rob the US government of a LOT of revenue.

lostand confused says

Most middle class will get a cut

I'm not so sure about that--we'll have to see how it shakes out with the reduced exemptions. But any cuts will be very small compared to the increased deficits.



lostand confused says

They may just double the exemption to say 20k for state and property taxes-at which point there will be very few that will be impacted. Well except IL and maybe NJ.

IL and NJ are bad, but you'd be surprised at how high property taxes are in a lot of states.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2015/03/21/cheat-sheet-high-property-taxes/24990145/
IL only ranks 6th on this list of the worst states for property taxes.

joeyjojojunior says

All it does is rob the US government of a LOT of revenue.

That is not robbing. Bringing people from abroad as refugees and giving them free money is robbing. This is just taking less money-entitlement mentality has run amok. There is another path-cuts to govt, to say the DEA, military. You cna cut 300-500 billion a year in gubmnt.
joeyjojojunior says

IL and NJ are bad, but you'd be surprised at how high property taxes are in a lot of states.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2015/03/21/cheat-sheet-high-property-taxes/24990145/
IL only ranks 6th on this list of the worst states for property taxe

That was in 2015, now iL is no 1. TX has high property taxes-but no state income taxes, so ok. YOu can't have both.Again why can't IL cut. Why can't they cut their govt villages and entities by half and cut staff by half-at least admin staff??

lostand confused says

That was in 2015, now iL is no 1. TX has high property taxes-but no state income taxes, so ok. YOu can't have both.Again why can't IL cut. Why can't they cut their govt villages and entities by half and cut staff by half-at least admin staff??

I agree 100%. And have you seen the fire stations and city halls in some of the Chicago suburbs? They are ridiculous Taj Mahal monuments. It gets harder and harder for some of these departments to spend all the money they are getting each year.

lostand confused says

That is not robbing. Bringing people from abroad as refugees and giving them free money is robbing. This is just taking less money-entitlement mentality has run amok. There is another path-cuts to govt, to say the DEA, military. You cna cut 300-500 billion a year in gubmnt.

I'm all for cutting military spending. But, in my opinion, companies purposely keeping money overseas to avoid paying taxes until they can make sure someone is elected who will lower their tax rate is robbery. We need to do both--collect revenue and cut spending.

This is an interesting table for looking at SALT by state. IL is near the top for median state and local tax burden, but several New England states are worse.

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416/

lostand confused says

However this will help prevent inversions-no one will change their base to say London or Ireland to take advantage of taxes.

This is a bogus argument. The number of companies moving overseas is minuscule. It makes for a great threat and splashy headlines, but it's not happening. If it were a real threat it could be easily dealt with by requiring companies to actually have their corporate headquarters and executives be physically located in the declared home country. I would love to see all those high end executives and families moving from the LA/SF/NYC social scene to rural ireland. Not going to happen.

There isn't going to be an army of unemployed tax lawyers. There isn't going to be gains in worker wages. There isn't going to be a surge in investment, expansion, and economic activity. No one can point to a major tax reductions anywhere in history where that happened. There will be a big surge in executive pay, stockholder dividends, stock buybacks and cash stuffed away. That has happened time and time again.

Bread and circus.

joeyjojojunior says

Actual business owners know that you hire when, by hiring, you can produce more product, generate more revenue, and ultimately more profits.

And what does lower tax rates do for the bottom line???? "ultimately more profits."

Joey, you really should not be posting until you finish your coffee.

Strategist says

And what does lower tax rates do for the bottom line???? "ultimately more profits."

Joey, you really should not be posting until you finish your coffee.

Nope. Profits are before taxes.

Strategist says

joeyjojojunior says

Actual business owners know that you hire when, by hiring, you can produce more product, generate more revenue, and ultimately more profits.

And what does lower tax rates do for the bottom line???? "ultimately more profits."

Except one grows the business and one takes away income from the government that all companies need to survive.

anon_e144f says

Sniper says

. By reducing it's tax burden, it frees up capital for use in other areas like, hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc.

Corporations have record profits and record amounts of money in the bank for " hiring new employees, higher wages, better benefits, newer infrastructure and equipment, offer new products, buy in bulk to save money, etc." already.

Don't let facts screw you up.

Each new project is determined on it's own merit. If there is not enough profit, projects will get shelved and end up in Mexico.
But don't let facts screw you up.

Strategist says

Each new project is determined on it's own merit. If there is not enough profit, projects will get shelved and end up in Mexico.
But don't let facts screw you up.

You're making our case for us.. Those merits are not dependent on tax rates (or only very minimally)

joeyjojojunior says

Strategist says

Each new project is determined on it's own merit. If there is not enough profit, projects will get shelved and end up in Mexico.
But don't let facts screw you up.

You're making our case for us.. Those merits are not dependent on tax rates (or only very minimally)

WTF. Lower tax rates increase the bottom line, making projects more lucrative to invest in. You think corporations will invest in new projects if the bottom line did not measure up?

joeyjojojunior says

Strategist says

And what does lower tax rates do for the bottom line???? "ultimately more profits."

Joey, you really should not be posting until you finish your coffee.

Nope. Profits are before taxes.

LOL. And net profits after taxes is all that counts.