patrick.net

Goran_K says

My determination for whether it’s a personal attack is when a comment begins to focus negative comments on the individual instead of the idea or point being argued.

If this is too strict, @Patrick can unban PCgyver and justme from politics and I’ll apply the rules differently.

Do you feel you are making an honest argument when comparing to different aspects of two different health care systems?

HEY YOU says

How many miles of socialist highway have been built

Capitalism built our highways. They're called infrastructure.

Strategist says

As much as I disagree with errc's filthy rant against Goran yesterday, (he should have been banned for a month) I have to support him on this complaint. I don't see a personal attack on this post by Justme.
Patrick, why put Justme's post in jail, and not ban Errc for a month? I see a whole new can of worms opening up here. I'm not trying to take sides here, just pointing out a problem that needs a quick solution. I'm sure everyone anticipated this problem.
Where do you draw the line? Maybe the Patnetters as a whole should decide where to draw the lines, and moderators can enforce that.
My 2 cents.

That's why you have different mods per topic. It's what many of those complaining now have asked and screamed for while the people they objected against mostly didn't care about moderation. I'm strongly against shuffling moderators at "request", if Patrick thinks it doesn't work he should go back to no moderation again. We already have the modern leftoids trying to dismantle the first and second amendment without going the proper constitutional way (for which they will likely never be a majority in the foreseeable future). Bad enough.

anon_ed8fe says

Goran_K says
Socialized medicine just causes rationing. That’s why Canada’s specialist wait times are now averaging 22 weeks. Me? I can see my ENT doctor same day if I want. That’s the beauty of capitalism.

Goran
Answer this, how long does it take to see an ENT in Canada?
What takes 22 weeks in Canada? Brain surgery? How long is equivalent time in USA?

What is the point in comparing apples to oranges? Do you feel this is an honest way to compare two types of healthcare systems?

So you found one example where you think you're right? There are pros and cons for socialized healthcare such as better access breadth (most if not all covered) and in some cases cost control, but the truth is and has been - and if you're honest for one minute you'd agree - that if somebody has a complex / difficult to treat condition and/or urgency and they have the means, they will not think twice but seek treatment in the US where you can find the best MDs and treatments for almost anything. I'm not against criticizing the problems of the US healthcare system, but it is disingenuous to allude to any parity on quality of treatment (given you have the financial means) and bash a system that clearly has produced the best expert MDs for pretty much every condition.

Goran_K says

The way I see it from my few days of being a mod, PCgyver, justme, and errr have been getting away with quite a bit already and should have more scrutiny.

I agree, for some reason, those three keep trying to test the line and keep trying to step over it. It reminds me a lot of what my two year old grandson does, as he tests his mother on what he can get away with. It's the same pattern with those three.

Goran_K says

The way I see it from my few days of being a mod, PCgyver, justme, and errr have been getting away with quite a bit already and should have more scrutiny. I didn’t ban errr even though his rant yesterday included a racist insult about my wife’s ethnicity.

It was clearly unacceptable. Errc usually provides intelligent input, wether you agree with him or not. He just happened to lose it yesterday, and even he would agree it was NOT acceptable.
I just think we need, lets call it "Universal Patnet Rules"

Strategist says

Goran_K says

The way I see it from my few days of being a mod, PCgyver, justme, and errr have been getting away with quite a bit already and should have more scrutiny. I didn’t ban errr even though his rant yesterday included a racist insult about my wife’s ethnicity.

It was clearly unacceptable. Errc usually provides intelligent input, wether you agree with him or not. He just happened to lose it yesterday, and even he would agree it was NOT acceptable.
I just think we need, lets call it "Universal Patnet Rules"

Agreed. I’d like clarification from the big boss about personal attacks. So far I’ve been operating under the zero tolerance policy. But if people get 3-4 free shots before deletions, then I’ll adapt. But we need a guideline that everyone sees across all forums.

mell says

It's what many of those complaining now have asked and screamed for while the people they objected against mostly didn't care about moderation

They're going to complain, no matter what happens. It's what they consistently do.

mell says

anon_ed8fe says

Goran_K says
Socialized medicine just causes rationing. That’s why Canada’s specialist wait times are now averaging 22 weeks. Me? I can see my ENT doctor same day if I want. That’s the beauty of capitalism.

Goran
Answer this, how long does it take to see an ENT in Canada?
What takes 22 weeks in Canada? Brain surgery? How long is equivalent time in USA?

What is the point in comparing apples to oranges? Do you feel this is an honest way to compare two types of healthcare systems?

So you found one example where you think you're right? There are pros and cons for socialized healthcare such as better access breadth (most if not all covered) and in some cases cost control, but the truth is and has been - and if you're honest for one minute you'd agree - that if somebody has a complex / difficult to treat condition and/or urgency and they have the means, they wi...

So no answer?

anon_ed8fe says

Goran_K says

My determination for whether it’s a personal attack is when a comment begins to focus negative comments on the individual instead of the idea or point being argued.

If this is too strict, @Patrick can unban PCgyver and justme from politics and I’ll apply the rules differently.

Do you feel you are making an honest argument when comparing to different aspects of two different health care systems?

I have yet to find any benefit to me personally with a socialized system over a market system. Unless you can explain how a socialized system benefits someone like me.

anon_ed8fe says

mell says

anon_ed8fe says

Goran_K says
Socialized medicine just causes rationing. That’s why Canada’s specialist wait times are now averaging 22 weeks. Me? I can see my ENT doctor same day if I want. That’s the beauty of capitalism.

Goran
Answer this, how long does it take to see an ENT in Canada?
What takes 22 weeks in Canada? Brain surgery? How long is equivalent time in USA?

What is the point in comparing apples to oranges? Do you feel this is an honest way to compare two types of healthcare systems?

So you found one example where you think you're right? There are pros and cons for socialized healthcare such as better access breadth (most if not all covered) and in some cases cost control, but the truth is and has been - and if you're honest for one minute you'd agree - that if somebody has a comp...

The answer is that for simple visits the wait times roughly compare but for complex visits and surgery/difficult or advanced treatment the US beats Canada hands down. That doesn't mean that Canadians might not favor access for all for these limitations, but a lot do cross the border for advanced visits and surgery.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Goran_K says

Strategist says

Goran_K says

The way I see it from my few days of being a mod, PCgyver, justme, and errr have been getting away with quite a bit already and should have more scrutiny. I didn’t ban errr even though his rant yesterday included a racist insult about my wife’s ethnicity.

It was clearly unacceptable. Errc usually provides intelligent input, wether you agree with him or not. He just happened to lose it yesterday, and even he would agree it was NOT acceptable.
I just think we need, lets call it "Universal Patnet Rules"

Agreed. I’d like clarification from the big boss about personal attacks. So far I’ve been operating under the zero tolerance policy. But if people get 3-4 free shots before deletions, then I’ll adapt. But we need a guideline that everyone sees across all forums.

Yes, all moderators should go slow, take their fingers off the trigger, and let the site evolve. It's Patrick's site, let him decide on the pace of evolution.
Some will resent a moderator, and some will be OK.

Canada’s wait times are the worst on record as of late last year.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/health-care-wait-times-hit-20-weeks-in-2016-report-1.3171718

Permanent-ban all liberals and problems solved

anon_fad35 says

Permanent-ban all liberals and problems solved

This

Then we can get back to real issues like the gays, my guns and abortion!

Capitalism = winning and losing; those that lose do without.

In health care, that can translate into dying in front of a hospital because you don't have money or insurance.

Whatever the right answer is for health care, pure capitalism isn't it.

anon_62240 says

Capitalism = winning and losing; those that lose do without.

In health care, that can translate into dying in front of a hospital because you don't have money or insurance.

Whatever the right answer is for health care, pure capitalism isn't it.

That hasn’t been the case in the United States for nearly a century. How many people near death have gone to a hospital in the US and died from refusal of treatment say in the past 50 years?

Goran_K says

Interesting points. I find it funny that to get the care we get here in the US and avoid the rationing line for NHS you still end up going to a private clinic.

Paying twice as much for health care in america as the rest of the world is not very funny at all. For the cost of health care in america it should come with unlimited hookers and a lifetime supply of blow. If you want to add on private insurance to the public systems the cost is negligible. I priced private health insurance in Australia at $460 AUD per year but never bothered to get it.

They would get the care without going to a private clinic. Just not right now today It's certainly not rationing. no one that needs care quickly is ever made to wait . There might, key word might, be waiting to have long term chronic conditions treated. Waiting a month for a knee replacement that was years going bad isn't the end of the world for anyone. .

Why is it always comparing america to Britains' NHS which is considered the worst of the first world public health systems? Why not Sweden, France, or Australia?

I've been a long term resident in 3 of the awful socialist health care countries and been perfectly satisfied with the care my family and I received. . One of the things I'm really looking forward to when I expatriate permanently is leaving america's abortion of a health care system behind.

I’ve never had any problems with health care access in America. My per family member maximums are $300 per individual. After that everything is literally free.

I can see pretty much any specialist in a single day except for surgeons (saw one 6 years ago for my back and that was a 3 days to appointment and then 4 days to surgery situation so still lightening fast).

Rationed healthcare simply doesn’t seem desirable to me. I don’t want to wait 20 weeks to see someone when I’m ill and suffering. That’s inhumane.

Goran_K says

That’s difficult to do since all procedures are slightly different. What’s the price difference between repairing a spiral fracture of the tibia vs repairing a compound fracture of the shoulder? Depends right? You would have to analyze the damage and difficulty of the repair and treatment.

I see your point though. I do want more transparency into pricing in the health care market where it’s easy to do so.

Where do you think posting prices would be easy to do? Why do you believe that any other specialty would not have slightly different procedures also? No doctor knows what you will need until they look and see what is wrong.

bob2356 says

Goran_K says

That’s difficult to do since all procedures are slightly different. What’s the price difference between repairing a spiral fracture of the tibia vs repairing a compound fracture of the shoulder? Depends right? You would have to analyze the damage and difficulty of the repair and treatment.

I see your point though. I do want more transparency into pricing in the health care market where it’s easy to do so.

Where do you think posting prices would be easy to do? Why do you believe that any other specialty would not have slightly different procedures also? No doctor knows what you will need until they look and see what is wrong.

I agree.

Goran_K says

I’ve never had any problems with health care access in America. My per family member maximums are $300 per individual. After that everything is literally free.

I can see pretty much any specialist in a single day except for surgeons (saw one 6 years ago for my back and that was a 3 days to appointment and then 4 days to surgery situation so still lightening fast).

Rationed healthcare simply doesn’t seem desirable to me. I don’t want to wait 20 weeks to see someone when I’m ill and suffering. That’s inhumane.

and your health care costs how much a year for how many people?

No one is waiting 20 weeks that is ill and suffering anywhere in the first world. You keep making this up.

bob2356 says

Goran_K says

I’ve never had any problems with health care access in America. My per family member maximums are $300 per individual. After that everything is literally free.

I can see pretty much any specialist in a single day except for surgeons (saw one 6 years ago for my back and that was a 3 days to appointment and then 4 days to surgery situation so still lightening fast).

Rationed healthcare simply doesn’t seem desirable to me. I don’t want to wait 20 weeks to see someone when I’m ill and suffering. That’s inhumane.

and your health care costs how much a year for how many people?

No one is waiting 20 weeks that is ill and suffering anywhere in the first world. You keep making this up.

My health care is fairly priced for the service.

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize others.

As for no one is suffering and waiting to die under socialized care in the “first world”, have you not heard of the VA? You should talk to some of the families of dead veterans who didn’t get care in time because of rationing. People die from rationing all the time.

Terrible and inhumane.

Goran_K says

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize others.

I don't want to be forced to subsidize the dropping of bombs on women and children.

Goran_K says

As for no one is suffering and waiting to die under socialized care in the “first world”, have you not heard of the VA? You should talk to some of the families of dead veterans who didn’t get care in time because of rationing. People die from rationing all the time.

Terrible and inhumane.

Maybe you should talk to your congressman and tell him to pay for those vets care. You want them to risk their life protecting your freedom but don't want to have to pay for their care when they get back home? That's pretty fucked up.

mell says

best expert MDs for pretty much every condition.

Japan has the best for many or most specialties, while Britain and Japan have probably the best for routine things. America has a few examples of excellence, e.g. Mayo Clinic, but overall the most uneven system in the world. Medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the USA. Entrepreneurial overutilization can be hazardous to your health, even fatal.

Goran_K says

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize others.

Publicly funded projects including medical research subsidize you all the time. Anyway the "others" you speak of are mainly the revenue recipients, e.g. hospital corporations and drug companies charging the highest prices in the world. The same essential generic drugs, e.g. doxycycline, sell for 100x more here than anywhere else, despite patents having expired decades ago. The "others" taking doxycycline are not getting a better product, you're not really subsidizing them, you're subsidizing the patronage networks (including PhRMA) that raised the price 100x.

Goran_K says

As for no one is suffering and waiting to die under socialized care in the “first world”, have you not heard of the VA? You should talk to some of the families of dead veterans who didn’t get care in time because of rationing. People die from rationing all the time.

Terrible and inhumane.

Nice dodge and spin. So the VA is a public health care system in another country now? Run and hide.

Goran_K says

My health care is fairly priced for the service

Run and hide.

My health care is fairly priced for the service.

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize others.

———————

You don’t seem familiar with the concept of insurance, and how it works.

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize your hypochondria

curious2 says

Japan has the best for many or most specialties, while Britain and Japan have probably the best for routine things. America has a few examples of excellence, e.g. Mayo Clinic, but overall the most uneven system in the world. Medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the USA. Entrepreneurial overutilization can be hazardous to your health, even fatal.

Yeah if you go to the MD all the time and do surgeries that are not necessary or - worse - cosmetical, you'll run a higher risk of medical errors or getting sick in general, but that is true for ant country. Japan has great MDs but I would challenge the notion that they match the US top MDs. Also I must disagree on Britain, it's a horribly run system, routinely and specially. Avoid ;) Go to Germany instead if you can or the Netherlands. I agree that the US system is very uneven, but it's also a very big country (no pun intended).

errc says

My health care is fairly priced for the service.

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize others.

———————

You don’t seem familiar with the concept of insurance, and how it works.

I don’t want to be forced to subsidize your hypochondria

AFAIK, the majority of healthcare insurance is privatized. So there is a built in mechanism for price control. If Blue Shield raises their premiums too high, then I'm FREE to go to Kaiser, AETNA, or some other competing provider.

With socialized healthcare, like Obama attempted, it's simply put into law through legislation, and you are forced to subsidize others to keep the system going. Even if you leave for "private clinics", you still are taxed to support the socialized health system. That is completely inequitable. Rationing occurs, and wait times increase. Canada had the LONGEST wait times recorded in its history just late last year. I'm guessing when the newest report comes out next month, Canada's wait times will probably have increased AGAIN.

Average wait times to see a specialist in Canada, 2016 (a system being praised by fans of socialist health care):

New Brunswick: 38.8 weeks
Nova Scotia: 34. 8
P.E.I: 31.4
Newfoundland and Labrador: 26
British Columbia: 25.2
Alberta: 22.9
Manitoba: 20.6
Quebec: 18.9
Saskatchewan: 16.6
Ontario: 15.6

I'll keep my health care system thank you.

I guess that ended the debate on socialized health care.

Now can someone tell me if socialism is so great, and according to Bernie Sanders the American Dream is more apt to be realized in Venezuela, why do Venezuelan grocery stores look like this?

Go to Germany instead

————

We can’t. Germany economy is in shambles

errc says

Go to Germany instead

————

We can’t. Germany economy is in shambles

Exactly.

@Patrick, who is deleting my comments? I can see that the comments marked as uncivil go to jail, but who is deleting my other comments, and why?

errc says

@Patrick, who is deleting my comments? I can see that the comments marked as uncivil go to jail, but who is deleting my other comments, and why?

Can you remember the post and content?

errc says

Goran_K says

Bernie quietly scrubbed his website of all praise towards Chavez/Maduro’s regime.

Do you have any proof of this? Care to provide it, or are people just supposed to take you at your word?

Here’s a question you didn’t answer. Like I said, you won’t answer because you can’t

Which is also I said things like this are meant to be uncivil and inflammatory, otherwise you wouldn’t be afraid to answer simple questions like “provide proof?”

errc says

Patrick, who is deleting my comments? I can see that the comments marked as uncivil go to jail, but who is deleting my other comments, and why?

I have deleted a few that were clearly simply personal attacks, mostly from comment jail, and mostly from anon users. Don't blame Goran.

Maybe there should be a delete buffer, where things go before they disappear completely.

but it's total equality now, everyone is a millionnaire... just like liberals want.

Patrick says

errc says

Patrick, who is deleting my comments? I can see that the comments marked as uncivil go to jail, but who is deleting my other comments, and why?

I have deleted a few that were clearly simply personal attacks, mostly from comment jail, and mostly from anon users. Don't blame Goran.

Maybe there should be a delete buffer, where things go before they disappear completely.

Wow, what a sad change of pace. Just months ago you were promoting liberal ideals like Freedom of Speech. Now you’re censoring anything that isn’t lockstep with far right idiocy. R.I.P. Freedom of Speech

If everyone is a millionaire, then a million dollars isn’t worth much at all. Just ask the people of Zimbabwe how that works.

Overall, economy is a complicated system of providing motivation for people to work, invent, produce, enter into agreements with each other, and build. Money must be scarce enough for people to want it, and yet plentiful enough for everyone to be able to get some. If everyone got too wealthy, people wouldn’t work or produce enough.

However, once automation and AI mature, the possibility exists that most people will not be required to work at all to make society and our technocracy function. Rather, only the gifted 20% or so will work, and be rewarded with the cream of the nation’s produce, the most interesting and influential being drawn from this group. The bottom 80% can live in fair comfort with plenty of distractions to keep them from wanting lore out of life. Chances are, this will finally be the population control for that quadrant that has been Long elusive. Given enough distractions and addictions, the less intelligent and or motivated people will waste their lives in vapid pursuit of things that don’t matter, leaving few progeny, especially if they are rewarded for breeding less.
It should only take two or three generations to breed out most of the stupid from the human race.