DeNiro leads crowd in singing God Bless America at Tony awards
invite response
2018 Jun 11, 3:16am 13,332 views 129 comments
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50
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 9:44am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 9:44am
Hassan_Rouhani says
Exactly, that's why I asked "cheaper for who", and I've only gotten crickets.
I guess it's cheaper for those who expect to pay less into the system than they expect to extract from it.
Exactly, that's why I asked "cheaper for who", and I've only gotten crickets.
51
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 10:42am
Goran_K says
Because you'd be paying ZERO to your employer and your employer would be paying ZERO towards your healthcare. So, you'll get a raise too!
This isn't hard. Come on.
How is it 50% "cheaper"? How can it be cheaper if like mell pointed out, the tax burden is increased? Nothing in the world comes for free, even making something "cheaper".
Because you'd be paying ZERO to your employer and your employer would be paying ZERO towards your healthcare. So, you'll get a raise too!
This isn't hard. Come on.
52
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 10:46am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 10:46am
LeonDurham says
Yes, but if tax burden is increased, how can you prove that that burden is LESS for me than what I'd pay an insurance company? Can you prove it?
Because you'd be paying ZERO to your employer and your employer would be paying ZERO towards your healthcare. So, you'll get a raise too!
This isn't hard. Come on.
Yes, but if tax burden is increased, how can you prove that that burden is LESS for me than what I'd pay an insurance company? Can you prove it?
53
RWSGFY
2018 Jun 12, 10:48am
RWSGFY
2018 Jun 12, 10:48am
LeonDurham says
California's estimate for "universal healthcare" came at 15% of additional tax on top of existing SIT being necessary to pay for it. This is waaaaaaay more than I pay for my employer-provided health plan, co-pays, deductibles and all that jazz.
Goran_K saysHow is it 50% "cheaper"? How can it be cheaper if like mell pointed out, the tax burden is increased? Nothing in the world comes for free, even making something "cheaper".
Because you'd be paying ZERO to your employer and your employer would be paying ZERO towards your healthcare. So, you'll get a raise too!
This isn't hard. Come on.
California's estimate for "universal healthcare" came at 15% of additional tax on top of existing SIT being necessary to pay for it. This is waaaaaaay more than I pay for my employer-provided health plan, co-pays, deductibles and all that jazz.
54
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 10:50am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 10:50am
Hassan_Rouhani says
Exactly, and California had universal healthcare as a bill, but it got shuttered in committee because of "costs".
Now why would the supposed 5th largest economy in the world shutter UHC if it's "cheaper"?
California's estimate for "universal healthcare" came at 15% of additional tax on top of existing SIT being necessary to pay for it. This is waaaaaaay more than I pay for my employer-provided health plan, co-pays, deductibles and all that jazz.
Exactly, and California had universal healthcare as a bill, but it got shuttered in committee because of "costs".
Now why would the supposed 5th largest economy in the world shutter UHC if it's "cheaper"?
55
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 10:51am
CBOEtrader says
Is this a joke? Just google health outcome by country.
Here's one:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror
Source, or you made this up.
Is this a joke? Just google health outcome by country.
Here's one:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror
56
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 10:52am
Goran_K says
No, it's cheaper for EVERYONE because it's MUCH, MUCH more efficient.
The cost of all health care is reduced.
How is this not understood?
Exactly, that's why I asked "cheaper for who", and I've only gotten crickets.
No, it's cheaper for EVERYONE because it's MUCH, MUCH more efficient.
The cost of all health care is reduced.
How is this not understood?
57
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 10:53am
MisterLefty says
Study after study after study all agree that the US spends 1.5-2X what every other country does. So, it's pretty clear that costs can come down. How much do you pay for health coverage every year? No matter if you're healthy or not.
And your employer doesn't pay for anything. They are taking money that they would have paid you in salary and instead pay it as "benefits" on your health care. It's all YOUR money.
I think the debate is whether folks would be paying more overall. Let's say you are reasonably healthy, exercise, don't smoke, and eat well. And your employer covers a good chunk of your medical insurance, for example.
Study after study after study all agree that the US spends 1.5-2X what every other country does. So, it's pretty clear that costs can come down. How much do you pay for health coverage every year? No matter if you're healthy or not.
And your employer doesn't pay for anything. They are taking money that they would have paid you in salary and instead pay it as "benefits" on your health care. It's all YOUR money.
58
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 10:55am
Goran_K says
Yes, of course. Study after study confirm it.
Yes, but if tax burden is increased, how can you prove that that burden is LESS for me than what I'd pay an insurance company? Can you prove it?
Yes, of course. Study after study confirm it.
59
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:01am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:01am
LeonDurham says
In all socialized systems, the government takes your money for healthcare? Yes?
Also, with my current insurance plan, I can see a specialist the same day.
Can you do that in Canada or the UK?
And your employer doesn't pay for anything. They are taking money that they would have paid you in salary and instead pay it as "benefits" on your health care. It's all YOUR money.
In all socialized systems, the government takes your money for healthcare? Yes?
Also, with my current insurance plan, I can see a specialist the same day.
Can you do that in Canada or the UK?
63
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:07am
OK--so let's not use Canada's model (although I don't trust those numbers). There are literally dozens of other systems to emulate instead.
But, I'd suspect that we could offer services you could buy that would allow access to Drs. with much shorter wait times if that's really important to you along with the new system.
But, I'd suspect that we could offer services you could buy that would allow access to Drs. with much shorter wait times if that's really important to you along with the new system.
64
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:15am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:15am
LeonDurham says
Hmm. So you're admitting that rationing is inherent to socialized healthcare, and to get around it, you would need another system to correct for that?
But, I'd suspect that we could offer services you could buy that would allow access to Drs. with much shorter wait times if that's really important to you along with the new system.
Hmm. So you're admitting that rationing is inherent to socialized healthcare, and to get around it, you would need another system to correct for that?
65
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:16am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:16am
Not a good idea to try and troll a mod Tatupu. Keep it on topic and not personal, or you're going to enjoy this pleasant debate a lot less. :)
66
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:17am
Goran_K says
Nope. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I'm saying that there are wait times no matter what system is in use and one way around it is to allow people the choice of shortening the wait time by paying extra.
Hmm. So you're admitting that rationing is inherent to socialized healthcare, and to get around it, you would need another system to correct for that?
Nope. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I'm saying that there are wait times no matter what system is in use and one way around it is to allow people the choice of shortening the wait time by paying extra.
67
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 11:17am
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 11:17am
LeonDurham says
Your comment was about longevity. Arbitrary rankings aren't even data, much less facts. It's basically some pundits top 10 list.
Try using facts to make your case.
The fact is longevity and IMR are both functions of lifestyle choices. Drugs, terrible eating habits, and skipping free pre-natal doctors appointments result in a much higher IMR in our black communities, for example.
Ask yourself why New Hampshire has an equivalent IMR to europe whereas in Alabama the IMR is more than double Europe's.
Ask yourself why the white IMR in US is marginally higher than EU, where black IMR is 2.2 times the white IMR. Keep in mind ALL the poorest mothers have medicaid.
Access to prenatal care isn't a problem for the despondent in the US (though it may be a problem for the working middle class).
CBOEtrader saysSource, or you made this up.
Is this a joke? Just google health outcome by country.
Here's one:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror
Your comment was about longevity. Arbitrary rankings aren't even data, much less facts. It's basically some pundits top 10 list.
Try using facts to make your case.
The fact is longevity and IMR are both functions of lifestyle choices. Drugs, terrible eating habits, and skipping free pre-natal doctors appointments result in a much higher IMR in our black communities, for example.
Ask yourself why New Hampshire has an equivalent IMR to europe whereas in Alabama the IMR is more than double Europe's.
Ask yourself why the white IMR in US is marginally higher than EU, where black IMR is 2.2 times the white IMR. Keep in mind ALL the poorest mothers have medicaid.
Access to prenatal care isn't a problem for the despondent in the US (though it may be a problem for the working middle class).
68
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:18am
fyi--rationing is inherent to ALL health care systems.
Currently, US rations based on a person's wealth.
Currently, US rations based on a person's wealth.
69
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 11:19am
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 11:19am
LeonDurham says
Yes, and there would be far more care in a free market. I'm glad we agree
US rations based on a person's wealth.
Yes, and there would be far more care in a free market. I'm glad we agree
70
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:23am
CBOEtrader says
Much comment was about measurable outcomes. And those are easily measured and compiled data.
CBOEtrader says
I did.
CBOEtrader says
Are there no black people in Europe? Wow--how enlightening.
I'm pretty sure there is a relation between IMR and $$. You think that might have something to do with it??
Your comment was about longevity. Arbitrary rankings aren't even data, much less facts. It's basically some pundits top 10 list.
Much comment was about measurable outcomes. And those are easily measured and compiled data.
CBOEtrader says
ry using facts to make your case.
I did.
CBOEtrader says
Ask yourself why New Hampshire has an equivalent IMR to europe whereas in Alabama the IMR is more than double Europe's.
Ask yourself why the white IMR in US is marginally higher than EU, where black IMR is 2.2 times the white IMR. Keep in mind ALL the poorest mothers have medicaid.
Access to prenatal care isn't a problem for the despondent in the US (though it may be a problem for the working middle class).
Are there no black people in Europe? Wow--how enlightening.
I'm pretty sure there is a relation between IMR and $$. You think that might have something to do with it??
71
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:24am
CBOEtrader says
Maybe--not sure how to get a free market in health care though. It fails many of the preconditions for a free market.
Extremely inelastic demand. High information inequality.
Yes, and there would be far more care in a free market. I'm glad we agree
Maybe--not sure how to get a free market in health care though. It fails many of the preconditions for a free market.
Extremely inelastic demand. High information inequality.
72
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:26am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:26am
LeonDurham says
Sure, but socialized wait times are enforced as are doctor queues.
Me, I can just pick any doctor with availability, and right this minute I can get a specialist appointment for the afternoon if I wanted.
I'm saying that there are wait times no matter what system is in use
Sure, but socialized wait times are enforced as are doctor queues.
Me, I can just pick any doctor with availability, and right this minute I can get a specialist appointment for the afternoon if I wanted.
73
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:27am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:27am
LeonDurham says
Yes, and that's great. The market is determining the rationing, not the same type of guy who works at the DMV.
Currently, US rations based on a person's wealth.
Yes, and that's great. The market is determining the rationing, not the same type of guy who works at the DMV.
74
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:36am
Goran_K says
lol--more trolling. Pretty sure the guy at the DMV wouldn't be leading the US health care system.
(although, with Trump as President you never know. The guy at the DMV is probably better than 50% of the current cabinet)
Yes, and that's great. The market is determining the rationing, not the same type of guy who works at the DMV.
lol--more trolling. Pretty sure the guy at the DMV wouldn't be leading the US health care system.
(although, with Trump as President you never know. The guy at the DMV is probably better than 50% of the current cabinet)
75
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:37am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:37am
LeonDurham says
No one said they'd be leading the US health care system but they would be the type who would be running it administratively.
Long lines, queuing. Sound familiar?
lol--more trolling. Pretty sure the guy at the DMV wouldn't be leading the US health care system.
No one said they'd be leading the US health care system but they would be the type who would be running it administratively.
Long lines, queuing. Sound familiar?
76
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:38am
Goran_K says
No, not really. The DMV is a state run facility and in my state, the wait times are very short.
And any decisions about how many Drs to hire would be made pretty far up the food chain.
No one said they'd be leading the US health care system but they would be the type who would be running it administratively.
Long lines, queuing. Sound familiar?
No, not really. The DMV is a state run facility and in my state, the wait times are very short.
And any decisions about how many Drs to hire would be made pretty far up the food chain.
77
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jun 12, 11:44am
Heraclitusstudent
2018 Jun 12, 11:44am
Goran_K says
Cherry picking. The entire civilized world outside the US has national healthcare and most of it is better quality than the US for 1/2 the price.
Cherry picking. The entire civilized world outside the US has national healthcare and most of it is better quality than the US for 1/2 the price.
78
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:50am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:50am
LeonDurham says
Which state is that tatupu, illinois? "Short wait times" and DMV aren't things that usually go together.
The DMV is a state run facility and in my state, the wait times are very short.
Which state is that tatupu, illinois? "Short wait times" and DMV aren't things that usually go together.
79
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:51am
Goran_K
2018 Jun 12, 11:51am
Heraclitusstudent says
Cherry picking? Canada is often brought up as a "successful" nationalized system.
Better for who? I can see a specialist today. Can you do that in Canada, the UK, or France?
Cherry picking.
Cherry picking? Canada is often brought up as a "successful" nationalized system.
The entire civilized world outside the US has national healthcare and most of it is better quality than the US for 1/2 the price.
Better for who? I can see a specialist today. Can you do that in Canada, the UK, or France?
80
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 11:53am
Goran_K says
I believe that's against the rules.
Which state is that tatupu, illinois? "Short wait times" and DMV aren't things that usually go together.
I believe that's against the rules.
84
WookieMan
2018 Jun 12, 1:48pm
WookieMan
2018 Jun 12, 1:48pm
I could be wrong, but are you guys referencing the doxxing part of the moderation policy when you say breaking the rules? This one's up to Pat, but I'm of the opinion that if you give out your state in previous comments, then it's fair game to mention. It's nearly impossible to actually dox someone just based on the state unless they use their real name as a public username. I understood it more as a question/comment about IL since I believe it has been brought up in the past as being the commenters place of residence.
As to IL DMV's, you really don't even need to go to one anymore. Vehicle registration is all through email/online. Even the every 4 years or so driver license renewal is not bad (I think you only have to go in for vision issues or if you've had past violations). Just did mine last summer, took 10 minutes strictly for the eye test and a new photo (fuck that was a bad photo). At least in IL the bad rap on DMV operations has kind of gone away (fuck, not sure how IL did it considering all the other issues).
As to IL DMV's, you really don't even need to go to one anymore. Vehicle registration is all through email/online. Even the every 4 years or so driver license renewal is not bad (I think you only have to go in for vision issues or if you've had past violations). Just did mine last summer, took 10 minutes strictly for the eye test and a new photo (fuck that was a bad photo). At least in IL the bad rap on DMV operations has kind of gone away (fuck, not sure how IL did it considering all the other issues).
86
WookieMan
2018 Jun 12, 1:58pm
WookieMan
2018 Jun 12, 1:58pm
LeonDurham says
Ok. I have no clue. I've been MIA the last month or so. Is it because he mentioned Tatupu? It was phrased as a question to a past active user (that I assume he believes is you) but I didn't see anything wrong with it. That's why I was asking about the doxxing part. Trying to get clear on what rule was broken.
FYI, congrats on not being in IL. When the next recession comes at some point, IL is going to be a blood bath. Although the DMV's are good by me now.
I'm not in IL anyway.
Ok. I have no clue. I've been MIA the last month or so. Is it because he mentioned Tatupu? It was phrased as a question to a past active user (that I assume he believes is you) but I didn't see anything wrong with it. That's why I was asking about the doxxing part. Trying to get clear on what rule was broken.
FYI, congrats on not being in IL. When the next recession comes at some point, IL is going to be a blood bath. Although the DMV's are good by me now.
87
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 2:55pm
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 2:55pm
LeonDurham says
Insofar as the lack of money results in unhealthy lifestyle decisions, then sure. Your claim is it's the healthcare system though rather than lifestyle decisions.
Are you admitting the healthcare system is a minor factor in actual population health?
I'm pretty sure there is a relation between IMR and $$. You think that might have something to do with it??
Insofar as the lack of money results in unhealthy lifestyle decisions, then sure. Your claim is it's the healthcare system though rather than lifestyle decisions.
Are you admitting the healthcare system is a minor factor in actual population health?
88
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 2:56pm
CBOEtrader
2018 Jun 12, 2:56pm
WookieMan says
IL DMV'sironically, the DMV's in Chicago are amazing. Far better than anything I've experienced in texas
89
LeonDurham
2018 Jun 12, 3:38pm
CBOEtrader says
Again-please don't put words in my mouth. That's very trollish.
No-I'm saying that access and quality of healthcare in poor areas is much, much worse than in rich areas.
Are you admitting the healthcare system is a minor factor in actual population health?
Again-please don't put words in my mouth. That's very trollish.
No-I'm saying that access and quality of healthcare in poor areas is much, much worse than in rich areas.
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Television audiences get bleeped version and wonder what they missed
DeNiro walked out and said 'I’m just going to say one thing, and that's f*** Trump'
The audience leapt to it's feet, and cheered the statement while the actor, 74, pumped his fists
THEN he said 'its no longer 'down with Trump', its 'f*** Trump' and the audience cheered again
Robert DeNiro yelled 'f*** Trump' during a foul-mouthed rant at the Tony Awards and got a standing ovation.
The audience went wild, some rising to their feet. DeNiro pumped his fists triumphantly.
The outburst was bleeped, so Broadway fans watching at home didn't hear the expletive.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5828513/Robert-DeNiro-yells-F-Trump-stage-Tonys-TWICE-gets-standing-ovation.html