patrick.net

Let me tell you what Ocasio-Cortez is not saying:
- Let's fight inequalities

You would think that would be a low hanging fruit for a "socialist". Much more than the "LGBT" agenda.

But that's not the direction the power-that-be want to go.

Heraclitusstudent says

If you factor in the empirical failure of the private sector to provide affordable healthcare, and the empirical success of many nations to achieve that goal,

You can't factor either of those things because they aren't true. Everything comes with compromises and sacrifices. Every system has strengths and weaknesses. There is no free lunch. Anyone who says "This system is better because it has no flaws" is being untruthful and illogical because no such system exists in the world that satisfies that statement.

Heraculis, had to delete one of your posts. You can make your point again without making it personally about me. Thanks for following the rules.

Heraclitusstudent says

Let me tell you what Ocasio-Cortez is not saying:
- Let's fight inequalities

What? Are you being serious or is that rhetorical and meant to be funny in some way? I'm being serious, I can't tell.

Goran_K says

You can't factor either of those things because they aren't true. Everything comes with compromises and sacrifices.

Yes they are true. You just don't want to admit it.
And no it doesn't. Many countries have better healthcare outcomes on most measures than the US and are still paying half what the US pays. Again a matter of empirical fact. Working with cartels has a price.

Goran_K says

Are you being serious or is that rhetorical

I'm serious. The democratic party harps on women vs men, white vs blacks, gay vs straights, etc... Their hierarchy of oppressors to oppressed goes from straight white man to transgender black woman.
It never goes from rich guy to poor guy. Never.
A lot of their supporters are rich and want to stay that way.

Don't you wonder why they make so much noise about trans and non-binaries?

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes they are true. You just don't want to admit it.
And no it doesn't. Many countries have better healthcare outcomes on most measures than the US and are still paying half what the US pays. Again a matter of empirical fact. Working with cartels has a price.

Not true.

You are saying one system is slave to "cartels", but what you're not realizing is that socialized healthcare is also slave to a cartel, it just has different skin.

As for "healthcare outcomes", that's not a real measure of success since the 4 of the Top 5 preventable causes of death are mostly preventable through PERSONAL choices. Nothing to do with the healthcare system in the US, just people being really fat, and making unhealthy choices compared to those in Nordic countries.

But here's one thing I do know.




If socialized healthcare in those "nordic countries" you admire so much do have some positives, they are certainly built on the backs of capitalist funded breakthroughs from the West.

Also:



Go ahead and take a look at that graphic for a couple of seconds.

@heraclitusstudent
I’m glad you can see the actual struggle. Both parties have been anti-working class for so many years, people thought they didn’t have another option.

Heraclitusstudent says

It never goes from rich guy to poor guy. Never.

Are you joking?

That's pretty much Bernie Sanders entire political shtick.

Now if you mean the Obama/Clinton types, then yes, you have a point, but those guys are quickly losing popularity within their own party.

Goran_K says

they are certainly built on the backs of capitalist funded breakthroughs from the West.

Fyi: most of the countries you mention do have private drug companies. You seem to be confusing drug research and medical care.

As for wait times: you do have to cherry pick the countries with the worst systems.
In spite of that I don't hear Canadians are dying on the curb, the mouth opened.

Goran_K says

Are you joking?

That's pretty much Bernie Sanders entire political shtick.

Bernie Sander was sabotaged by his own Democratic party, remember?

Populism exists on the left and on the right. It doesn't mean he has the support.

You have to follow the plot.

Heraclitusstudent says

Fyi: most of the countries you mention do have private drug companies. You seem to be confusing drug research and medical care.

As for wait times: you do have to cherry pick the countries with the worst systems.
In spite of that I don't hear Canadians are dying on the curb, the mouth opened.

You don't think pharmaceutical innovation is part of health care? Hmm.

As for "people dying on the streets", that is a nice fairy tale to rile up the left base, but it doesn't help make a point.

The US healthcare system has been exceedingly great for me, I can see specialist within 1-3 days most of the time. I once saw an ENT doctor within an hour of my call. How exactly has the US Healthcare system failed me?

Heraclitusstudent says

Bernie Sander was sabotaged by his own Democratic party, remember?

Populism exists on the left and on the right. It doesn't mean he has the support.

You have to follow the plot.

Yes populism does exists on both sides, but the right was able to blow up their establishment, and elected Trump.

What has the left done? They're going to replace their establishment with people like Sanders and Cortez, which is arguably worse.

Goran_K says

You don't think pharmaceutical innovation is part of health care? Hmm.

I'm saying you can have a single payer and private drug companies. It is typically the case in most industrialized nations.

Goran_K says

The US healthcare system has been exceedingly great for me

That's nice. I wonder how the average family of 4 with $50K income is doing when some health crisis shows up.
And I wonder how you'll fare at 70 when you need full time care and how long will your nest egg will last.

Anecdotic evidence doesn't prove the point.

Goran_K says

Yes populism does exists on both sides, but the right was able to blow up their establishment, and elected Trump.

What has the left done?

So far it shows a rich demagogue beats an old angry congress guy. Doesn't say much about the left or right.

Goran_K says

What does medicare for all (aka Universal Health Care, aka single payer) mean? It means exactly what it says.

You realize the US is the only first world country without extensive government health care. About 30% of US people do have government insurance too. You're not only sharing the world with socialists, including the US's closest allies, but 30% of the way there yourself.

It seems, going back to the original post, that no deal has been struck. There's some verbal agreements, but the real deal making is still on going. We'll have to wait to see the full details.

"A working group of senior advisers will meet to facilitate trade and lower barriers. The two sides pledged to refrain from new trade restrictions during those negotiations."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44961560

HowdyThere says

You realize the US is the only first world country without extensive government health care.

Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are government healthcare. How many people are covered in those systems now?