patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

I repeat:
It is obvious that there should be a debate of ideas including about what the truth is, and how the nation should be led.
I would define decadence as a people becoming incapable to recognize and/or react to truths and facts.

yes

Democrats and Progressives, 2000s:
www.youtube.com/embed/llvjtgf9u9M

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

And it's the Legacy Media, not Alex Jones or Donald Trump, that is aggressively peddling Identity Politics, a picture of an irredeemably Racist-Sexist Nation (unless Whites die, or leave all their inheritance to minorities, etc.),

So you don't think it is a problem that we have mainstream media which are increasingly pushing 2 competing biased vision of the world? - because free speech?

I'm worried youtube & itune will ban Jordan Peterson or Sam Harris.
Screw Alex Jones.

Heraclitusstudent says

So you don't think it is a problem that we have mainstream media which are increasingly pushing 2 competing biased vision of the world? - because free speech?

It's a problem, and as long as the Public is prevented from making a fickle bid to ban speech, eventually it will be hashed out. The real threat is actually not the fickle mob, but the clerisy class feeling they aren't being deferred to as they feel they should. I'm a verified twitter blue check with a Masters in Journalism from Georgetown, goddamit, heed my advice that White People should flagellate themselves and quit their job for a LatinX Lesbian left-handed Midget, the dirty slobs!

I'm very confident that American Free Speech Absolutism will win in the end.

The very point of Classical Liberalism is that boisterous public argument results in the most optimal solution, most of the time.

Heraclitusstudent says

I'm worried youtube & itune will ban Jordan Peterson or Sam Harris.
Screw Alex Jones.

I give you Christopher Hitchens, these Classic Remarks again posted on Patnet.
www.youtube.com/embed/cbJxdEg6kFk

Heraclitusstudent says

I'm worried youtube & itune will ban Jordan Peterson or Sam Harris.
Screw Alex Jones.

They're next after Alex Jones. Peterson is being attacked, Harris has been attacked before and you can expect both of them, once Alex Jones, Rebel Media, Sargon, Styxhexenhammer, etc. are deplatformed, to be next on the chopping block from the NYT and CNN and WaPo.

Legacy Media isn't just having a crisis of credibility, it's also increasingly insecure financially for the members, as well. The popularity of New Media is an existential threat as well as an injury to their pride.

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

They're next after Alex Jones. Peterson is being attacked, Harris has been attacked before and you can expect both of them, once Alex Jones, Rebel Media, Sargon, Styxhexenhammer, etc. are deplatformed, to be next on the chopping block from the NYT and CNN and WaPo.

Total BS.

There is nothing that could possibly explode the popularity of the "intellectual dark web" more than an attempt by the mainstream media to silence them. Possibly they would move to own and control that type of quality discussion, but they don't even want to shut it down - even if it does compete.

Remember the NYT, CNN, and WaPo type entities aren't evil at the level of individuals. They are comprised largely of people that would be fans of the some if not most of intellectual dark web

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

They're next after Alex Jones. Peterson is being attacked, Harris has been attacked before and you can expect both of them, once Alex Jones, Rebel Media, Sargon, Styxhexenhammer, etc. are deplatformed, to be next on the chopping block from the NYT and CNN and WaPo.

That they are attacked is good. In fact Peterson's best advertisement is the losing attempts of the media to misrepresent his opinions.
But I think it will be hard to deplatform Peterson or Harris unless they make stupid mistake the way Milo did. The backlash would be enormous.

In fact it may be too late for that. The "intellectual dark web" has millions of listeners and is fast becoming more central to US thinking than media like the NYT. Contrary to Jones, it is centered around reason and reasonable arguments. It has been very adept at rejecting and debunking the party official narratives pushed by the elites. Attempts to misrepresent and discredit them have largely failed, in large part because they have long form discussions in which they can easily set the record straight.

I heard Peterson the other day joke that his book was not on the NYT best sellers list even though it has been the best selling book in the world for at least 6 months. So does the NYT credibility go down every day. They think of themselves are a permanent institutions but they risk crossing a threshold from where they will simply not come back.

When they came for the Liberals, Moche said the "Cock Sucker is in there hiding under the bed!"

Heraclitusstudent says

Jones is deliberately lying, and lying about things that undermine institutions.

Which specific lie are you talking about? Regardless, it's irrelevant. Jones is being censored because the left wants to win midterms and Jones has influence. Period. This is absolutely wrong. Period.

Also it isnt only Jones being censored. Any voices who support individual liberty over progressive values is being censored. These libertarians can be insane like AJ, but can also be classic leftist liberals like Jordan Peterson.

Do you remember when google cut off JP's email? They apologized for the "mistake" of the algo after massive public blowback. Dont kid yourselves though, AJ is just the first to be censored.

The time to stand up against this nazi-like book burning is now

Heraclitusstudent says

I heard Peterson the other day joke that his book was not on the NYT best sellers list even though it has been the best selling book in the world for at least 6 months.

This is happening everywhere and on every level.

It may be comical for an unstoppable force like JP. What about the average Joe who this crushes? Wrongthink voices are being wiped out before they even speak.

Heraclitusstudent says

But I think it will be hard to deplatform Peterson or Harris unless they make stupid mistake the way Milo did. The backlash would be enormous.

]

Legacy Media is just getting warmed up. Can't placate them by offering AJ as the whacky sacrificial lamb, it will just be an appertif to the Censorship Beast.

The Corpratist Globalists and the Left (and the Islamists) are in full panic mode. They see this as one of their few victories, and will want to repeat it, and start going down their little lists... of people who won't be missed. Peterson, Sargon, Styx, Harris, are all on it.

By the way @Heraclitusstudent, @CBOEtrader and the rest, thanks for this old school Patrick thread experience Today.

CBOEtrader says

It may be comical for an unstoppable force like JP. What about the average Joe who this crushes? Wrongthink voices are being wiped out before they even speak.

I disagree. First we don't need 10 JP. All we need 4-5 popular podcasters dedicated to the truth and reason to throw off the mainstream narrative train and rub the media's nose into its lies with devastating efficiency.
Second, Average Joes like James Damore easily become symbols of everything that is wrong with the do-gooders self righteous censorship. Again, shaking their credibility.
More people should do it.
Having the truth on your side helps.

Thanks TwoScoops.

marcus says

Remember the NYT, CNN, and WaPo type entities aren't evil at the level of individuals. They are comprised largely of people that would be fans of the some if not most of intellectual dark web

Isnt this why CNN/wapo/NYT/FOX are dying in favor of actual, honest discussion?

The market is starving for straight facts reporting, and intellectual discussion about those facts.

MSM offers selective filtered facts w massive editorialized spin. MSM's soundbite manipulative format is a fake news breeding ground. They should all go out if business

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

JP is joking he found a way to monetize SJWs.
Nothing pays like saying controversial stuff that is in fact true.

Heraclitusstudent says

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

JP is joking he found a way to monetize SJWs.
Nothing pays like saying controversial stuff that is in fact true.

Sounds like a pitch for a youtube channel. "Controversial Truth" w Max Powers

Heraclitusstudent says

I disagree. First we don't need 10 JP. All we need 4-5 popular podcasters dedicated to the truth and reason to throw off the mainstream narrative train and rub the media's nose into its lies with devastating efficiency.

Good news:
Styxhexenhammer (261k subscribers)
Sargon (831k subscribers)
Rubin Report (850k)
Paul Joseph Watson's own channel ( 1.3M) for starters.

NYT has 1.4M, barely ahead of Watson and only double Sargon (a lone youtuber) and Rubin (a tiny operation).
MNBC has 1.3M.
InfoWars main channel had 2.5M.
CNN has 4M.

When it comes to engagement, I'd bet good money that the lone Youtubers or Rubin has engagement numbers much superior to the Times.

Well, the Good News is that Infowars, which was already surpassing most of the Legacy Media BEFORE the ban, (ABC, BBC, NYT, NPR, WSJ, USA Today, Reuters, Bloomberg, MSNBC, HuffPo, and CBS) now surpasses CNN.



Gonna go download it on my phone now.

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

I hate to see Jordan Peterson classified as a conservative, as surely Ben Shapro's excellent takedown of that BS surely will lead some to conclude. JP is socially conservative and a good voice against SJW nonsense on college campuses, but I consider him a moerate. Where as Ben Shapiro is clearly a conservative commentator (a rare good one - most of the time).

I read that NYT times piece, then I found this.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30825/new-york-times-runs-comprehensive-hit-piece-jordan-ben-shapiro

I doubt that Nellie Bowles had a directive from high up to take down JP. I think she's just a prisoner of her biasses, as she was programmed as a hummanities major in a modern university. Thus not capable of objectively looking at Jordan Peterson - although she claims to have considered many of his videos. Possibly she simply lacks the objectivity and or bandwidth to give him honest consideration. In any case Ben Shapiro earns points with me on this one, and the NYT loses. Even if it is just an opinion piece in the "style" section.

Ha, and since competence hierarchies are real and do exist, she might want to consider looking for another line of work, after the epic fail that article was for her. Or perhaps Ms. or Self magazine would have a place for her ?

marcus says

I doubt that Nellie Bowles had a directive from high up to take down JP. I think she's just a prisoner of her biasses, as she was programmed as a hummanities major in a modern university. Thus not capable of objectively looking at Jordan Peterson - although she claims to have considered many of his videos. Possibly she simply lacks the objectivity and or bandwidth to give him honest consideration. In any case Ben Shapiro earns points with me on this one, and the NYT loses.

Once you feel part of a (political) tribe, you can't escape it's narratives. When confronted with cognitive dissonance about these narratives, your brain will automatically rationalize things to revert toward consonance. The smarter you are, the better you are at it. Therefore everyone that disagrees with your narratives can ONLY be motivated (overtly or covertly) by the narratives of the out-group, i.e. the right wing themes like "war on women", "white nationalism", etc, etc... The only alternative would be an emotionally painful reassessment of your group and your own identity. This is how propaganda works. This is how tribalism works. It is in that sense irrelevant whether she was instructed to do it. She is absolutely not capable to think anything better.

You will see the exact same when right wingers on patnet claim everyone on the left are nazis, or communists, or "collectivists" (or any other keyword reserved for the lunacy of the out-group, and the use of which instantly terminates critical thinking), typically taking anecdotes as proofs of the matter.

Luckily, long form discussions, on podcasts or youtube, make quick work of the blatant dishonesty. All the SJWs achieve by debating JP is exposing their biases. The beauty of it is that they aren't even fully aware how badly they come out of it.

CBOEtrader says

Wrongthink voices are being wiped out before they even speak.

Nah, we can't even shut you up with your silly repeated generalized claim that the left are nazis.

Heraclitusstudent says

Once you feel part of a (political) tribe, you can't escape it's narratives.

Very true. But some of us manage to not really fit one tribe or the other. I'm a conservative by many standards, but known as a flaming liberal around here. The long form discussions you referred to, give a moderate such as myself a chance to actually (usually) be of a fan of someone like Ben Shapiro, becasue of the caution he exercises in the way he makes his arguments and the way in which he engages with those of different opinions.

After years of interacting with trolls online, and or listening to emotional sound bite driven MS media, its extremely refreshing to listen to people that are seemingly friends intelligently discuss difficult topics from differing political poles and finding common ground.

It gives a person hope.

(although I guess some might argue that the SJWs and the neo nazis on the right are excluded )

Aphroman says

What is stopping anyone from reporting facts and having intellectual discussions about them?

Youtube/google/FB for starters. Dont believe me? Try this: go tweet an article discussing the IQ differential between blacks and whites. Watch how quickly you get shut down.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

Wrongthink voices are being wiped out before they even speak.

Nah, we can't even shut you up with your silly repeated generalized claim that the left are nazis.

If I tweeted the things I write in here I'd be shut down within a few days.

marcus says

I hate to see Jordan Peterson classified as a conservative

JP is a classic libertarian/liberal. Unfortunately that makes him a Nazi in today's environment.

CBOEtrader says

Unfortunately that makes him a Nazi in today's environment

Only to you.

marcus says

Where as Ben Shapiro is clearly a conservative commentator

Yup, and dave ruben is a libertarian who once was a progressive. These are 3 of the youtubers I listen to the most. Their unifying characteristic is a belief in individual rights over collectivism.

All 3 have been called Nazis by the left for criticizing progressive fascism.

CBOEtrader says

article discussing the IQ differential between blacks and whites. Watch how quickly you get shut down

Probably rightfully so. Most people who would want to tweet that either have a racist agenda, or they don't really understand the generalizations that are not implied by the data. Why would someone want to go there (that topic) in a twitter environment filled with political trolls.

CBOEtrader says

article discussing the IQ differential between blacks and whites. Watch how quickly you get shut down

Probably rightfully so. Most people who would want to tweet that either have a racist agenda, or they don't really understand the generalizations that are not implied by the data. Why would someone want to go there (that topic) in a twitter environment filled with political trolls.

Aphroman says

Do you feel that private sector should be allowed to have a TOS and guidelines for what they deem acceptable?

sure, unless they only apply the TOS to silence political dissidents.

marcus says

Probably rightfully so.

So you agree that some facts cant be discussed, but you wouldnt want to express the non PC facts, therefore it's cool if noone can?

Do you disagree with your hero JP who feels this IQ discussion is at the core of societal importance? Sorry, I do agree w JP. If society wants to fixate on equality of results, it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy.

Not trying to change the topic to IQ, just pointing out that facts DO matter and DO need to be expressed. Censoring non-PC thought is tyrannical and wrong.

Or rather than IQ, what about violence in the black community?

Try tweeting out facts regarding black on black crime. You'd get labeled a racist, doxxed until you are fired, etc... I forget the economist but I remember reading about a black economist who said that PC culture is the biggest enemy to economists helping the black community. He pointed out that most economic minds weren't allowed to ponder "racist" questions, such as "what can the black community do to improve it's own situation?" The only acceptable academic PC assumed racism is the problem, and therefore you cant research real world solutions (since suggesting blacks cause their own problems is racist).

^do you want PC culture. Or do you want the truth?

Aphroman says

What if a church is selling advertising on their new digital marquee, should they be forced to offer platform to gay porn site that wants to advertise there?

If it were the only marquee in the country and gay porn was routinely advertised there already, then yes. If they selectively choose to enforce the rules against political opponents that would be an infringement of rights.

It’s sad when corporations want to police political discourse. We have a congress to pass laws, and we have a judiciary to judge disputes. We don’t need vigilante corporations to suppress ideas they consider offensive or wrong.

The way left hates white, they are today’s Nazis. They vilified being white, like Hitler vilified Jews. They blame whites for all the problems.

Your party is Nazi, Marcus, you are just too bought into it to see it.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

Unfortunately that makes him a Nazi in today's environment

Only to you.

CBOEtrader says

JP who feels this IQ discussion is at the core of societal importance? Sorry, I do agree w JP. If society wants to fixate on equality of results, it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy.

You totally misunderstand what JP has said. HE never said anything close to that. He has talked about IQ differences, which are different on average but at the level of selected individuals it's irrelevant. Further more there are other factors I won't go in to that make it difficult to get representative scores for entire races, while controlling for educational differences.

Peterson is opposed to going for equality of outcome. But he never said: "it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy." He's simply opposed to blaming white patriarchy as oppressive, and argues that meritocracy works and is what people are conflating with Patriarchy. He also sometimes talks about how if someone has an IQ of 80 or lower(perhaps the border he cites is lower), it's really going to be hard for them to make a living. If anything this is an argument for safety nets, which he is not opposed to.

There are alt right types that misunderstand Peterson and use him to defend their racism. Sadly you seem to fit that description.

CBOEtrader says

Censoring non-PC thought is tyrannical and wrong

There will always be censorship, that is people that aren't going to be allowed in the conversation. See the last few minutes of this.

Below JP with interesting political commentary starting at about 10:00

At 12:30 he seems to be advocating censoring you, or people like you, AT LEAST FROM SOME CONVERSATIONS.

www.youtube.com/embed/E1PeOfbT_q0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6036481/Democratic-senator-sayys-Infowars-takedown-good-start.html

Democrats back Infowars takedown as one senator wants MORE accounts squelched and another says social media companies should be legally liable for everything their users post
Apple, Facebook, Spotify and YouTube have banned broadcasts and podcasts from conspiracy theorist Alex Jones
Democratic senator from Connecticut calls it 'a good start' and hints that he wants a more heavy-handed approach to squelching fringe speech
Another Democrat, from Virginia, wrote a draft policy white paper that proposes making social media outlets legally liable for what their users post
Jones is known for conspiracy theories, including calling the Snady Hook shooting a hoax and the 9-11 terror attacks an 'inside job'
'See?' a Republican House aide said drily, 'it's not paranoia if they actually are out to get you'