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Islam is real, Christianity is an ideology

By Rin following x   2019 May 17, 10:54am 712 views   30 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


Here's what I mean, Islam is the continuation of the rantings of Mohammed led by Caliphate Abu Bakr who knew him personally. In effect, in a single generation, what was a situation contained within what's today's Saudi Arabia spread via violent armies led by the Caliphate across the near east and north Africa. This lineage of Caliphates continued up until Genghis Khan's forces put an end to the Caliphate's empire.

In contrast, Paul of Tarsus only had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus. For the most part, Christianity was known in Anatolia and later, the rest of the Roman Empire, because of this person's writings and teachings. The latter armies of Christianity, which you can say emerged during the middle ages, esp the Crusades, had little to do with Paul but by power hungry clergies and knights. In other words, like other ideologies, including capitalism, its future caretakers became corrupted and cruel. Likewise, Buddhism spread by the writings of the Pali Canon and the Emperor Asoka of India, sending teachers to the rest of Asia-Pacific with such writings and added info. Gautama Buddha had nothing to do with it, as that was a few centuries after his death.

Contrast that with Islam ... Islam cannot exist without Mohammed and at least the first two Caliphates, Abu Bakr and Umar ibn Khattab. This is simply not an ideology. It's the rantings of a crazy, power hungry Arab and his inner circle of friends. Christianity could exist with or without Paul, albeit with very few converts since Paul did much of the early leg work, but it could go on. And Buddhism could do the same without Asoka.
1   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 May 17, 11:07am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Until the last 20 years, I never knew a single scholar or Historian that denied Jesus was a real person and his Story from the official Roman POV was accurate. Meaning he was killed for being a rabble rouser and upsetting the order with the Jewish temple on Pass over. The rest is up to debate depending on how religious you are. But Jesus was doccumented as real person about 2000 years ago.
2   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 May 17, 11:10am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

If Jesus story wasn't real, it would have been debunked way before Emperor Constantine moved Rome to Constantinople.
There was never any counter text published that called the New Testament Lies against Rome. They had over 400 years to write such a rebuttal, but they never did. Is evidence enough he was a real person.
3   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2019 May 17, 11:11am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
Until the last 20 years, I never knew a single scholar or Historian that denied Jesus was a real person and his Story from the official Roman POV was accurate. Meaning he was killed for being a rabble rouser and upsetting the order with the Jewish temple on Pass over. The rest is up to debate depending on how religious you are. But Jesus was doccumented as real person about 2000 years ago.


It's weird, lately Democrats have been so anti Christianity. Granted it's mostly coming from the hollywood fag culture, and feminist abortion is a right mentality. They have power, and they really want Christianity out. What makes no sense, is their sucking up to Islam. I think they don't realize that Islam is Christianity +beheadings of non believers. That's pretty much the only difference.

World is upside down.
4   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 11:13am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
If Jesus story wasn't real


My point is ... who cares? We know that Paul saw him as a vision and that the only historian from Jesus's time was Josephus Flavius. The rest is up to faith.

This is about Islam where Mohammed is not only Jesus but Jesus, Paul, & Constantine all rolled into one lunatic's rantings.
5   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 11:15am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FortWayneIndiana says
Islam is Christianity +beheadings of non believers


Nope, Jesus is the core of Christianity whereas the core of Islam are psychopathic Mohammed and at least two Caliphates.
6   FortWayneIndiana   ignore (4)   2019 May 17, 11:21am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
FortWayneIndiana says
Islam is Christianity +beheadings of non believers


Nope, Jesus is the core of Christianity whereas the core of Islam are psychopathic Mohammed and at least two Caliphates.


This is my summary of how I see things:

Jewish - chapter 1 - life is cruel, suck it up and deal with it. you sin = you will die because you are an idiot
Christian - chapter 2 - Jesus and a story of sacrifice and cooperation
Islam - chapter 3 - Mohammed, conquest, murder, beheadings, lying.

It's why I see Islam as Christianity with addition of what you call ravings of a lunatic Mohammed (murder, beheadings, etc...) they just added chapter 3. Muslims see it as Christianity plus toughness, they don't actually see what they do as murder.
7   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 11:27am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

In 1945, the following early Christian era texts were found in Egypt ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library

And are not considered canon to the faith so in effect, there's already differing opinions on what's what with early Christianity. And this is before the schism between the east and west.

Can you say the same for Mohammed? No, you can't. He was a conqueror of Arabia and his first Caliphate was the conqueror of other places. This a religion based entirely upon a barbarian and his clan's will to power.
8   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 11:31am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
He was a conqueror of Arabia and his first Caliphate was the conqueror of other places. This a religion based entirely upon a barbarian and his clan's will to power.


And then some dumb Shittes think that because the First Caliphate didn't "rightfully" earn his title, that some other psychopath, Ali, should have taken Abu Bakr's job. Wow! A branch of a religion based purely on power politics of a stupid Arab clan.
9   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 May 17, 11:32am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
My point is ... who cares? We know that Paul saw him as a vision and that the only historian from Jesus's time was Josephus Flavius. The rest is up to faith.


If he wasn't in official records of the Roman Empire, they would have put the Jesus Cult down early as nothing more than Lies against Rome.

Rome never once challenged the account of what happened to Jesus, but they did persecute his followers. Explain that?
10   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 11:43am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FortWayneIndiana says
It's why I see Islam as Christianity with addition of what you call ravings of a lunatic Mohammed (murder, beheadings, etc...) they just added chapter 3. Muslims see it as Christianity plus toughness, they don't actually see what they do as murder.


Sure I agree with the stacking metaphor, however, I'd like to see Islam as a separated out monster, independent of the others.

I believe even early Christian scholars didn't want the New Testament, to be a sequel to the Old one but something which stood alone and separated from the Hebrew scriptures. If so then today, we wouldn't have such a fixation on the strip of land known as Palestine because then, all of the world be a type of holy land. But such is life.
11   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 11:51am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
Rome never once challenged the account of what happened to Jesus, but they did persecute his followers. Explain that?


Because you cannot kill an ideology, they could only kill Paul which they did. And since Paul didn't himself meet Jesus, it's not like there's a paper trail to follow.

Realize, there's also no hard evidence that the Buddha existed either but they're still Buddhists in Asia.
12   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 May 17, 12:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The whole Ideology was based on a man dying on a cross, killed by Romans at the behest of Jews.

That would have been super easy to put down if it were based on unfounded lies.

You don't have to deny anything about the religion just by proving or saying that never happened. That would have been the end of it.

If you're saying that if there are no Documents or Scrolls written by Scholars on a subject or person then it doesn't happen or exist?

History is full of Archives being burned by successors.
13   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 May 17, 12:09pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

According to Rin the last 20 years of the Internet never happened because Facebook, Twitter, and Google has erased it.
14   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 12:18pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
You don't have to deny anything about the religion just by proving or saying that never happened. That would have been the end of it.


I don't know, Nero wasn't all over Anatolia, stomping out Christianity in all corners of the empire.

In effect, the idea of the savior (saoshyant) also existed in other nearby faiths as well. I'm sure Paul was aware of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant

And similar to Revelations ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frashokereti

Excerpt: " On earth, the Saoshyant will bring about a resurrection of the dead in the bodies they had before they died. This is followed by a last judgment through ordeal. The yazatas Airyaman and Atar will melt the metal in the hills and mountains, and the molten metal will then flow across the earth like a river. All mankind—both the living and the resurrected dead—will be required to wade through that river, but for the righteous (ashavan) it will seem to be a river of warm milk, while the wicked will be burned. The river will then flow down to hell, where it will annihilate Angra Mainyu and the last vestiges of wickedness in the universe. "

In effect, one might even say that Christianity was predicted by Zoroastrian writings, long before Rome was able to extract territories in the near east.

That's why it was better if the New Testament just became its own thing and let the old one be the Hebrew scriptures.
15   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 12:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
In effect, one might even say that Christianity was predicted by Zoroastrian writings, long before Rome was able to extract territories in the near east.


Where Zo's failed was due to ethnicity/nationalism since being a Zo mean't that person was ethnic Persian.
16   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 12:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Tenpoundbass says
According to Rin the last 20 years of the Internet never happened because Facebook, Twitter, and Google has erased it.


Actually, we do have a national archive.
17   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 12:24pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
the last 20 years of the Internet never happened


Thanks to Al Gore, the internet is now immortalized!
18   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 May 17, 12:35pm   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Rin says
My point is ... who cares? We know that Paul saw him as a vision and that the only historian from Jesus's time was Josephus Flavius. The rest is up to faith.


Not sure where you got your information, but it’s extremely inaccurate. Since you seem to have an interest in discovering whether Jesus was historically a person or just a figment of Paul’s imagination, I’ll refer you to Lee Strobel’s book “The Case for Christ.” Not to scare you, but this guy is a journalist who started out as an atheist all set to prove that Jesus never truly existed. What he found was thousands of records, many many eye witness accounts, and recordings in Roman histories. It’s all pretty extensive. There are far more historical records referring to Jesus existence than to the fact that Julius Caesar ever existed.
19   Tenpoundbass   ignore (14)   2019 May 17, 12:39pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

You're using WikiLie as a Source disqualifies and nulls your argument.

I refuse to debate with people that use reference of sources that actively engages in Political censorship.
21   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 2:01pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
refer you to Lee Strobel’s book “The Case for Christ.”


I'll check it at the library.
22   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 2:03pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

BTW, a lot of you are missing the point of this thread.

This is basically a thread against Islam.

And in doing so, I've contrasted it to Christianity, Buddhism, and even Zoroastrianism where the founding 'prophet or messiah' wasn't a serial killer.
23   Blue   ignore (0)   2019 May 17, 3:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Remove all forms of tax intensives to anything that relates to religion. Religions will die in no time so does the god. People will save tons of time, nice to each other and be more safe and productive without religious snake oil.
24   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2019 May 17, 3:35pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

FortWayneIndiana says
Christian - chapter 2 - Jesus and a story of sacrifice and cooperation

As in...
25   Heraclitusstudent   ignore (2)   2019 May 17, 3:37pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

No rationalization going on. No attribution bias.
26   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 5:10pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Heraclitusstudent says
As in...


I think I'd answered this piece of the question in the other thread ...

http://patrick.net/post/1324282?offset=0#comment-1589842

The Holy War, sanctioned by the Pontiff Urban II, was for the crusade led by Godfrey of Bouillon. That was a full thousand years ago.

Rin says
Quigley says
NuttBoxer says
So atrocities, wars, etc are less evil the more time passes?


Any reasonable person would agree that events of 1000 years ago shouldn’t be an excuse for current day hostilities along the extremely distant progeny of those involved or their cultural equivalents.


It goes beyond the whole 1000 year strawman set up of a person like NuttBoxer. It's the fact that today, church or church-like leaders & subleaders of any denomination, will not advocate bombings as a way to instill Christian will and philosophy onto the general public without themselves, either being kicked out by their parishioners or arrested by local law enforcement.

I'm sure now, NuttBoxer will bring up the Catholic Croatians vs Eastern Orthodox Serbians as another strawman so I'll bring this up ... neither...
the Pope (a/o his underlings) nor the Patriarch of the Eastern Church (a/o his underlings) will advocate for the Bosnian genocide.

Pope Urban II of the Crusades has been gone for a millennium. His legacy does not live on since he's not really advocating the teachings of Christ but his own empire building initiative of the middle ages.

And I'm using my former hometown of Cambridge MA, where yes, there's an Islamic center where teachers/clerics advocate violence TODAY, as per the Koran/Mohammed's teachings, to justify their cause but in contrast, within the same square mile, none of the other religious gathering buildings do the same. I've given the opportunity for some of the other non-Muslim sub-nationalities [ 90 - Islamic countries ] to show that they're the equivalent of Islam when they're not and the fact remains that only one religion within the most multi-ethnic and religious area, circa Boston, advocates violence.

If the Tsarnaev brothers were Orthodox or Jews from the former USSR, chances are that today, Dzhokhar would be a successful physical therapist, living the American Dream in the greater Boston area, instead of on death row. It's Islam and in particular, Islamic teachings from 204 Prospect St Cambridge MA which has made him what he is.

27   Rin   ignore (3)   2019 May 17, 6:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

The only way I'd construe Islam as some meaningful ideology if if Mohammed, himself, said that he was the prophet for the ppls of Arabia.

If he did that then he's actually being fairly honest because one, Arabia is a barbaric society and when the world's a jungle, there can only be one king.
29   HEYYOU   ignore (31)   2019 May 17, 6:47pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

"But what a fool believes... He sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems... To be
Is always better than nothing" - Kenny Loggins, Michael McDonald
30   PeopleUnited   ignore (1)   2019 May 17, 9:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Heraclitusstudent says


Since Paul was mentioned, here is what he has to say about mainstream human ideology vs reality based ideology. Romans Chapter 1.
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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