patrick.net

richwicks says

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Richwicks, you made an assertion, can you at least explain it? What is the difference between a fetus and a 12 year old that allows one to kill the first but not the second?

As far as societal norms, California law prohibits murder of a human being. As far as the right to live, I personally don't see any difference between humans in different stages of development.

187.
(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:
    (1) The act complied with the former Therapeutic Abortion Act (Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code) or the Reproductive Privacy Act (Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 123460) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code).
    (2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician’s and surgeon’s certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the person pregnant with the fetus or where the pregnant person’s death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.
    (3) It was an act or omission by the person pregnant with the fetus or was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the person pregnant with the fetus.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

A long time ago, I had a girlfriend who had an abortion w/o telling me. So that is reason numero uno why I don't have at least one kid. I had no say in it. So, ppl telling me that I shouldn't have an opinion on this because I don't kids...well, that's a touchy subject for me.

That's an outlier but I agree you should have an opinion in your case with not being told. You didn't have a choice and that's bull shit. My SIL did it 6 times. I can't stand to see her. I'm related by marriage to my wife, but she's a piece of shit. She sneaks in and undermines her kids behavior, my nephew and it pisses me off.

My main point was until you have a kid, you just don't know what it's like. That's why I said people without kids really have no say in this, male or female. You potentially could have had a kid. Maybe you wanted it or didn't, but you've at least experienced abortion. It sucks. Regardless of the relationship, it will always be a what could have been my life with a kid stuck in your brain.

My wife could never do it. We've talked about it extensively, obviously with my SIL. I just don't think it's right. I give no shits about if it's a week or 9 months. It's not right. And it's not at all about the woman unless it's going to kill her or rape. Which is rare. Two adults consented to have fun. Two adults should have a decision in the matter.

I wouldn't change a thing in my life. But I obviously didn't know you experienced that. So sorry if I brought up bad memories for you. Wasn't the intention. Once you have one it's life changing. I'm not religious either. I'm an ass hole. So that's how much it moves me. I guess to finalize my opinion better, if you don't have a child or experienced abortion, you really shouldn't talk about it. My mistake for not thinking about the dudes on that comment with regards to abortion.

I never really liked the thought of abortion but when I was younger I thought people get in bad situations and should have a choice. Fast foward decades later I think it should be illegal outside of rape and risk to woman's health.

If a woman wants to have an abortion she should have to go before a judge with the father to explain why. If a man or woman needs a second abortion they should be fixed like a dogs for acting like animals.

Was thinking about this the other day. If people who are against abortion are called pro-life, why aren't people for abortion called pro-death?

Everyone chooses his own label.

I don't think that abortionists consider the fetus to be alive or human but rather an inconvenience to be eliminated.

yawaraf says

Richwicks, you made an assertion, can you at least explain it? What is the difference between a fetus and a 12 year old that allows one to kill the first but not the second?

@yawaraf I don't know what to explain here. When was your first memory? I was 3 years old, I was being left with this strange woman as my parents went somewhere. Almost everybody's first memory is trauma.

Who was I before that? I have no memory of it. I wouldn't say I was human then.

yawaraf says

As far as societal norms, California law prohibits murder of a human being. As far as the right to live, I personally don't see any difference between humans in different stages of development.

Oh I absolutely do.

I'm an old man, if for whatever reason you had to make a choice of killing me, or some 8 year old kid, kill me. Without question.

yawaraf says

I don't think that abortionists consider the fetus to be alive or human but rather an inconvenience to be eliminated.

Different people have different viewpoints. What's changed me is realizing that all the people who were considered experts, simply aren't.

I don't know why you bring up special situations such as having to chose between killing an old man or a child, or of governments engaging in war and war crimes.

Fundamental rights are actually prohibitions:
- right to live - do not kill
- right to property - do not steal
- right to free speech - do not make laws that curtail speech
- right to bear arms - do not interfere with the manufacture and possession of weapons

If it is forbidden to kill a 12 year old on account that he is a human being, why not forbid the killing of a fetus on account that it is a human being?

yawaraf says

I don't know why you bring up special situations such as having to chose between killing an old man or a child, or of governments engaging in war and war crimes.

I can tell you.

If it's between you and a 5 year old kid being killed, which would you pick?

Me, without even hesitation. Would you rather die than a 5 year old kid? There's no question with me. I would never kill a child to survive.

yawaraf says

If it is forbidden to kill a 12 year old on account that he is a human being, why not forbid the killing of a fetus on account that it is a human being?

Because the question is, is it human?

I oppose abortion, I think contraception is VASTLY preferable, but failing that - who would abort their child? Maybe they shouldn't have kids, they'll be like them. You oppose them, we know for certainty that children adopt the beliefs and attitudes of their parents, you want to reduce abortion - don't you?

There's a line between a fertilized egg and a baby, I can't pretend I can judge where it's ethical of even if it is ethical ever. But if you're going to do it, do it as soon as possible. It really should be safe, legal, and rare, and preferably, as early as possible.

I know women that had a kid at 15, she (and him) didn't just fuck up their lives, they fucked up their kid as well. Adoption would have been better, but we have the propaganda box telling them that they are a stunningly brave and powerful woman and a government that forces the man involved to pay child support for 18 years. It's just poverty for everybody and both adults hated it, that poor kid. She fucked over the guy that married her. Ruined his life.

I have two adopted people in my family. I don't think they should have been terminated, after all I exist as a result - but I will not oppose it. If it was available at that time, I would have never known.

I oppose a non-nuclear family, and what a strange name that is. NUCLEAR family. Like it's space age or something - as if it's a new concept as a result of modernity, it's been around for thousands of years.

richwicks says

Maybe they shouldn't have kids, they'll be like them. You oppose them, we know for certainty that children adopt the beliefs and attitudes of their parents, you want to reduce abortion - don't you?

Maybe they should have kids? Ever think of that? Maybe just that one changes them as a woman or guy? Maybe they don't get 6 other abortions? Have a kid yourself? Or take one in? Stop talking out your ass on a topic you literally know nothing about. Zilch. Nada.

You talk about who you know. YOU haven't experienced it. I hang out daily with a couple where the wife had a kid at 15. I have two kids. I fucking know nothing about her experience even though she's a good friend. The kid is 20 and doing well instead of dead. He wouldn't exist by your logic. Oh and she lost a kid to a bacterial infection at 3 years old. I'm sure you know about how that feels too....

I hate this topic, but your take on it is so far off it's not even funny. As I've said, until you have a kid, I really don't respect anyone's opinion on the topic. Shut your mouth. I know a lot of people that did a lot of things, doesn't mean I've experienced it. It's just information. You got information and have no clue.

Patrick says

Yes. So many woman voters see unrstricted abortion as the only issue. This is why Biden keeps taking about preserving abortion rights and saboteur Lindsay Graham keeps proclaiming a national abortion ban.

https://notthebee.com/article/evil-pro-life-activist-lauren-handy-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-protest-at-abortion-clinic