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Georgism Thread


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2022 Aug 5, 4:00pm   22,515 views  164 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (59)   💰tip   ignore  

Having read an abridged version of Henry George's Progress and Poverty, I'm trying to clarify in my own mind exactly how it could work, and what legitimate objections might be. Georgism seems to explain property prices in the Bay Area very well, and how the higher salaries from increased productivity around here get sucked up by non-productive landowners.

These links look pretty good. I just read the first one. They all pretty long, but seem worth the read:

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-land-really
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-2-can-landlords
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-part-3-can-unimproved
https://www.theirishstory.com/2016/10/18/the-great-irish-famine-1845-1851-a-brief-overview/

The main impediment, politically, would be the reduction in land prices. But perhaps some tech billionaires would throw their weight behind Georgism purely out of self-interest. They would come out ahead if income tax is reduced as much as the land value tax is raised.


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154   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Mar 20, 6:16pm  

Patrick says

I still like Georgism, but I'm horrified by UBI, which will definitely be used to starve people who object to total state control over their lives.

Vyrdism sounds interesting, but what is it exactly?


Article gets into depth about it.

But basically, you to take something like UBI, pool it with others in a cooperative that invests and utilize productive assets - automated as possible. Or invest in it directly.

UBI— fine, all's well. I'm all for it. Then automation cleans up the rest. That means that your only source of income is UBI.

The State doles that out, so you always have to be cool with the State, lest they take away your UBI. The State has always been run by the bourgeoisie— those with wealth— so it's by their own grace that you're actually paid. "Unconditional" is the worst possible word to describe basic income. Your life is now reduced to whatever the State and those who own the State decide it's worth.

If you do anything they don't like, they'll take it away. That's why "unconditional" is the worst possible word to use— nothing is unconditional. It's a blatant lie to get people to sign onto it.

The only way UBI would "empower" people would be if the people used it to empower themselves, particularly by pooling capital to buy ownership of the machines. UBI by itself doesn't empower anyone. It actually makes you even less empowered because you're now dependent on a central body.

See how people can get fired over something they said on Facebook? Imagine a situation similar to that, except even worse. If you hold the wrong opinions, buy the wrong things, say the wrong things, who knows, there goes your "unconditional" basic income.

Think of it this way: What would you call it if I were a heavily automated nation's richest man and I gave out money to everyone in that nation every month? All goods and capital go through me first, and I pay out as I see fit. Everyone gets a certain amount of money.

You wouldn't call that "basic income". You'd call that an autocratic dictatorship. If I find you did something wrong, I could punish you by withholding your income.

If I tell you to do something, and you don't do it, I punish you by taking away your income.

If I tell you to support me, and you support the opposition, I punish you by taking away your income.

If I tell you that 2+2=5 and you tell me it equals 4, I punish you by taking away your income.

What can you do to resist? Nothing. That income was your last hope to survive, and you blew it.

"But what if we haven't automated everything yet and I can still work?"

Oh, joys! Because now I can turn you into a debt-slave.

I give you basic income, and you disobey my laws, social order, and will? I take away your basic income— then demand you pay me back, with interest. You now have even less money than you started with. You don't pay me on time, I raise the interest rates. You're now indebted to me.

That's why it should never be seen as an ends to itself. It's a means, and only ever should be a means. That's why I support Vyrdism and technostism.

Technostism is just the word that describes an automated society. A technostistic society is one that actively automates labor, and a technostist is a person who actively seeks automation.

I am a technostist— I want to automate away as many jobs as possible, and I will do whatever I can to make sure jobs are automated. I am also a Singularitarian and national-transhumanist, which means I want to keep humans as far away from any new jobs as well.

So it's obvious that Grade-IV Automation will unemploy a lot of people. That's why I'm a Vyrdist— I feel we should own that automation, have it do our drudgery and labor, profiting off the technotariat. I'd like to go further into what Vyrdism entails, but right now I'm just trying to point out the flaws in thinking UBI will save us— it won't. At best, it's a means to an end, and that end is, in fact, Vyrdism.

What did I mean up there by 'Grade-IV Automation?' I believe there are multiple grades of automation:

  • Grade-I is tool usage in general, from hunter-gatherer/scavenger tech all the way up to the pre-industrial age.

  • Grade-II is the usage of physical automation, such as looms, spinning jennies, and tractors. This is what the Luddites feared.

  • Grade-III is the usage of digital automation, such as personal computers, calculators, robots, and basically anything we in the modern age take for granted. This age will last a bit longer into the future, though the latter ends of it have spooked quite a few people.

  • Grade-IV is the usage of mental automation, and this is where things change. This is where we finally see artificial general intelligence, meaning that one of our tools has become capable of creating new tools on its own.


AI will become capable of learning new tasks much more quickly than humans and can instantly share its newfound knowledge with any number of other AI-capable machines connected to its network. It is with this advancement and Grade-IV automation that technostism, and thus Vyrdism, become possible (and indeed, naturally begin occurring).


Example:

Meet Joshua. Joshie-boy is an anarchist who's been working at McDonalds. He fought for a $15 minimum wage way back in the prehistoric year of 2016 and got his wish. In the futuristic space year of 2026, he got the pink slip— the manager of his chain replaced all the workers with machines to save money. Luckily, the USA passed an ordinance that made UBI the law of the land back in 2025. Conservatives and liberals came to a compromise that, as long as all other welfare schemes were dropped and many regulations were ended, UBI would be granted. So even though Josh is now unemployed, he's still receiving a paycheck. That's nice. Good for him. He's still going to find another job though, right?

Well, not really. He's decided that he does not like the bourgeoisie at all, and will now use his basic income grant to keep him afloat while he protests the Man and the free market. That's all well and good. His roommate begs him to join a worker cooperative down the lane— in fact, a technate. However, Josh resists, figuring that it's still just a part of the capitalist system.

So, when he attends a protest, the government notes this and disimburses his basic income. Now, not only is he not receiving a basic income, but he's also indebted to the State. And guess what— since machines are starting to take over all the jobs, there's no way for him to pay off this debt. He could go to school, educate himself, learn how to repair the machines and whatnot... except the machines are learning how to do that too, and much faster than he can.

Game over. He's now property of the State. The Karma Police will be coming to collect him and seize his assets; he'll be relocated to a debtor's camp to work off what he owes.

Whoops.

Compare this to if Josh had joined that technate, a bunch of people who owned their own droids and held shares in other technates. He receives a seed loan to introduce him to the technate, which his droids eventually pay off, ultimately welcoming him into the technate as a full fledged networker. Now his paycheck comes off of actual robotic labor. He can even purchase more droids for himself and increase his net worth. And it doesn't matter if the State takes away his basic income— that isn't even a hundredth of his total income.

It turns out this technate is part of a very large federation. Several networkers had used the basic income they received to buy droids or start businesses, which then joined the technate federation. Cooperatives also took advantage of this. 50 million Americans are part of the federation— they actually have power; they have control over their lives; they are living comfortably, if not better than ever. They don't have to answer to any central figure at the top. If they break a law, too bad, they still get their monies. The Worker Cooperative Federation succeeds in actually lifting millions out of poverty, while UBI succeeds in putting millions back in it.

It's the difference between wealth creation vs. wealth redistribution. Decentralization vs. centralization.


Basically in that example, you are a pimp who gets his hoes to generate money for you. Only the hoes are AI agents (physical or purely digital) of some sort. You join a cooperative much like medieval craftsmen and merchants joined guilds, to get economies of scale, political protection, etc.
155   Ceffer   2024 Mar 20, 7:15pm  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

If I tell you to do something, and you don't do it, I punish you by taking away your income.

If I tell you to support me, and you support the opposition, I punish you by taking away your income.

Or, how about, "As soon as I get total power by promising you income, I will withdraw it arbitrarily at will to fuck you over for the hell of it whenever I please."

This is what Macron did with the yellow vest pensioners, who thought that somehow by putting Macron in charge they were getting a promised and guaranteed social contract instead of an arbitrary tyrant. Never mistake the first check for a guaranteed trend, which is what the NATO and Jesuit subsidized border tourists aka fake refugees and illegals will discover as soon as their use is ended.
158   Patrick   2024 Jun 7, 10:47am  





One of the big advantages of Georgism is its simplicity.

Only land and other natural resources would be taxed, and the tax rate would be how much someone bids to have monopoly use of them per year.
159   Patrick   2024 Jun 13, 4:58pm  

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/06/trump-drops-bombshell-proposal-allegedly-suggests-eliminating-income/


Trump Drops Bombshell Proposal: Allegedly Suggests Eliminating Income Tax in Favor of High Import Tariffs During DC Republicans Meeting


This sounds like a good step towards Georgism.
160   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 13, 5:00pm  

Patrick says


Trump Drops Bombshell Proposal: Allegedly Suggests Eliminating Income Tax in Favor of High Import Tariffs During DC Republicans Meeting


Wouldn't be nearly enough. A VAT and a business Gross Receipts flat tax might. Both at 10% rates at least.

And this:

Despite these tariffs, the prices of imported goods remained unaffected under Trump’s administration.


There are so many ways around tariffs these days. Globalism and standardized shipping containers are the main culprits.
161   Patrick   2024 Jun 13, 5:03pm  

Right, it's just a step in the right direction. The Land Value Tax is what would generate enough revenue to run the government we need. Not the one we have.
162   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 13, 5:07pm  

Patrick says


Right, it's just a step in the right direction. The Land Value Tax is what would generate enough revenue to run the government we need. Not the one we have.


Again, LVT can't be levied at the federal level, really. Apportionment.


163   Patrick   2024 Jun 13, 5:11pm  

We couldn't impose a federal income tax either until the 16th Amendment.

16th should be repealed and replaced with LVT.
164   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 13, 5:16pm  

Patrick says

We couldn't impose a federal income tax either until the 16th Amendment.

16th should be repealed and replaced with LVT.


We could for the same reasons we could impose an LVT. It's just that the apportionment clause issue made collecting both too much a pain in the ass both technically and politically.

Getting any Constitutional amendment passed and ratified these days is politically impossible.

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