patrick.net

Constitutionalist says

Yes, we will all die someday, but your analogy was nonsensical and didn’t apply - it certainly didn’t go over my head. And thank you for pointing out that I’m highly articulate, I appreciate that you’re one of my fans. However, I actually replied that you should take the fucking bus. I didn’t reply to my own comment.

No worries. Your HealthScare Reform is dying on the vine … I will be back to gloat once it meets with resounding defeat in October. See you then

Aww, don't go away mad. Just go away.

This is a serious issue that provokes serious thought. That you would gloat if our healthcare system overhaul fails is disturbing - the current system is a failure. That is, unless you're heavily invested in insurance companies (their profits continue to soar).

DT,

I am not sure what you mean. If the public plan is not subsidized by taxpayers then who will pay for it? The federal reserve!!??

Let's make no mistake about it. The government has inflated (with plans like Medicare and tax exemptions for corporations who buy health insurance for employees) and is proposing we continue to inflate the health care bubble.

Patrick, I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I can't comprehend what that must have been like for you. I need clarification regarding your post. You say that the insurance system is what is killing people and that a government system would be better. You mentioned that your parents were on Medicare. Is that not the government system? As for the Americans flying to India for treatment, I don’t know the statistics but I’m pretty sure those are elective treatments (plastic surgery). The U.S. may not have the best system for the payment of health care but I know we have the best quality of care. Many people come to the U.S. when they can’t get the care they need from their health care system (Canada, UK).

>>>>"srla,
If health care costs are going up, they will reach a limit where no one can pay. At that point they will either level off or come down. Prices cannot go up indefinitely, that is what this housing bubble website is all about!!!!! See the connection??????????????? Should we subsidize housing to bring the cost down? "

In response to that last quote...

This assumes that normal market rules apply to healthcare, which they don't (quite a bit of research has been done that shows this is true). Subsidies themselves will not DIRECTLY bring down healthcare costs. But until everyone is insured, we will continue to pay massive costs, both financial and humanitarian, quite simply because we are not utter savages and do not turn away those in need of urgent medical care.
So we have 50 million people for whom we pay nothing until they are bankrupt and dying from a lack of preventative care and treatment. Then, once they are severely ill, we foot the bill. Is this really acceptable to you?

Healthcare costs are skyrocketing not because of free market forces but because of intensive lobbying efforts to keep competition OUT of the healthcare marketplace. Well qualified foreign doctors are prevented from entering the country. Pharmaceutical companies are granted 15 year monopolies on new drugs. Medicare is prohibited from using its buying power to negotiate lower drug prices. And it often costs upward of $300 just to sit down with a specialist, let alone to get a "price quote" or competitive diagnosis.
The only way to lower prices (short of your solution to simply wait until nobody can afford care, and presumably, millions die needlessly) is to forcibly inject competition into the marketplace (the hope of a public plan) or to simply convert to a single payer insurance plan like Canada's.

Of course, we ignore that Canadians overwhelmingly support their system, pay 60% of what we do per person, and have a longer lifespan, and instead we concentrate on decade-old rumors of long waits for hip replacements and a single story about a woman who claims she couldn't get proper treatment for a brain tumor. Why rely on actual surveys and statistics when we have lies, exaggerations, and one single story?

By the way, Canada set those "benchmarks" for wait times during the mid-'90s, when a recession led to steep cuts in healthcare. Due to public outcry (and a Supreme Court decision), they poured hundreds of billions into the system and cut the wait times way down. And still, they pay more than 1/3 less than we do. If you want to know their wait times, they publish them on provincial government sites. Unlike here, they are transparent about their healthcare system, honest about its shortcomings, and dedicated to making improvements that impact all their citizens. Too bad the richest country on Earth can't do the same.
More facts and less fearmongering would go a long way towards improving the level of dialogue.

Has anyone checked out Singapore's healthcare system?
In Singapore, the government has everyone working contribute to a fund (compulsory personal saving) called the Central Provident Fund (CPF). This fund is basically used for one's retirement and for buying a home. People are allowed to use this fund to buy basic healthcare plans for themselves & their children too.
The government allows her citizens and all who has contributions to this compulsory savings/CPF Fund to buy insurance from private providers. It is used for basic healthcare needs (no hair transplant, breast augmentation, etc). There are many options provided by the different insurers, thus cost is lower... and best benefits suffice! Also, there is the option of co-payment or none...
At the Singapore's govt hospital level, there are three classes of wards.. and one can go to any based on their affordability:
(a) BASIC Subsidised (no air-con, no TV, 6 beds thus 6 patients in one room, cannot choose your MD to treat you)... cost very low... cost can be offset by the BASIC level healthcare plan you bought (may not completely offset cost - really depends on the plan you have bought...)
(b) MIDDLE (air-con, 4 beds in 1 room, has personal TV, can choose MD to treat you)... cost slightly higher... cost can be offset (maybe not totally though) by the healthcare plan you have bought...
(c) First-class (air-con, 1 bed in each room... no sharing of room)... cost expensive... foreigners go to this class... cost can be offset (maybe not totally though) by healthcare plan you have bought...
Other than the healthcare plans one can buy using his/her CPF, one can also use part of his/her CPF to offset treatment costs that are approved by government. For eg, this year, the birthrate in Singapore is low and to encourage higher birthrate, the govt has approved the using of one's CPF for IVF (with certain $ limit though... and the govt further subsidized IVF treatments too, for approved cases, eg if you are under 40 years old)
If you are interested to read more, search under "CPF", "Medishield", "Medisave" in Singapore. Private insurers providing the plans are from AIA Singapore, Great Eastern Singapore, NTUC Singapore, etc., just to name a few...
I guess what I like is the all-facet healthcare plan involved: the government ensures the poorer individuals has the option of going to the subsdized ward with lesser amenities of course, yet there are also many different choices/options available for the individuals (can choose different healthcare plans... can choose the class of ward you want if you can afford & are willing to pay for it)
Note: I am a Singaporean who has lived in Singapore for 34 years before moving to the States. From my experiences as a RN in both countries, I can say I like Singapore's system better. Also, I think Singapore's healthcare system has worked very well for Singaporeans :)
A few questions/concerns I have of Obama's proposed Health Care Reform Bill:
(1) May I suggest that all of us read the 1000+ pages of the Bill before making the comments here?
(2) We cannot take the chance of having a good-intentioned but with-little-specifics-and-too-much-generalization bill take over our healthcare system... see what our taking the chance with the FED cum the Treasury has done to us & the economy?
(3) I think the problems we experienced in our healthcare system is not just a result of the kind of system we have... it is also the result of the kind of leadership we have... abuse and neglect have ruined our country, despite our greatly-admired Constitution... what makes us so sure our politicians or won't ruin a good thing with greed even if the reform is a good thing? Even if we don't trust the private health insurance providers, do we really trust our politicians?
THUS, it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that we make sure our politicians come up with a CLEAR bill before we decide to approve it. I am not against such bill... I am against UNCLEAR bill, which incidently is also how our politicians are able to greedily abuse & take advantage of us for so long.
I love USA (my husband is a citizen of USA) and I want the best for all of us! :)

Australia has all kinds of problems with its health care system, but I look at what my US friends have to deal with and there's simply no comparison. You guys have one totally f**ked up health system. I don't know whether Obama's plans are any good, but you really need to do something, so I can't believe there are people opposing any and all attempts to improve things.

Let us all who love America refrain from making comments that are a little too "emotional", what do you think? Let's all carry this "conversation" civilly and concentrate on the issue. Let's give thought-provoking comments, without the raised "voice" if you will, please. Thank you very much in advance :)

srla,

If "normal market rules" do not apply to health care, please explain what rules have got into this mess.

If you are honest in your search for the answer you will find it was government who inflated this health care bubble by driving up costs through the fee for service programs like Medicare and offering tax exemptions for employers to purchase health insurance, but not offering those same tax exemptions to the consumers who alone are capable bringing accountability to the pricing situation in health care.

Say it with me now, health care is a bubble. The government created it and now wants to blow it up bigger. Anybody got a pin?

Australia has all kinds of problems with its health care system, but I look at what my US friends have to deal with and there’s simply no comparison. You guys have one totally f**ked up health system. I don’t know whether Obama’s plans are any good, but you really need to do something, so I can’t believe there are people opposing any and all attempts to improve things.

It's called one or two vested interests very thinly disguised as furious opponents of Socialized health care.

To be fair, there are a lot of good arguments for not being excited by a government run health care plan; any trip to the DMV or through the TSA line at the airport is enough to give anyone at least some misgivings. I'm also not a fan of this newly kindled dependence on government largess, but I wonder where the sound & fury was over the expanded taxpayer backed FHA mortgage plan or HOPE, or PPIP, or Cash for Clunkers or any of the other absurd boondoggles. No, this is a touchy subject because, first and foremost, insurance agencies/pharmaceutical companies are making cash hand-over-fist with the way things are now, and they will defend their very lucrative business model to the end. I wouldn't expect any less.

10 x 0 = ?

2ndClassCitizen says

srla,
If health care costs are going up, they will reach a limit where no one can pay. At that point they will either level off or come down. Prices cannot go up indefinitely, that is what this housing bubble website is all about!!!!! See the connection??????????????? Should we subsidize housing to bring the cost down?
If you think that subsidizing housing is ridiculous, health care is even worse. Are you listening Patrick?

the problem is that below the upper limit where 100% of people cannot pay, you have the limit where 90% of the population cannot pay. insurance cos can keep going on the profit from 10% of the population while 90% continue with no insurance. not a good model, at least for this member of society

and yes, i think that subsidized housing to keep costs down is GREAT; subsidized homeownership is terrible. but the myriad federal, state, and local programs that subsidize housing for renters are great programs

I don't understand Medicare/Medicaid very well. At first, my parents had huge medical expenses (my mother was still working and not on Medicaid when she got sick) and ended up with no money and a second mortgage on their house, in spite of paying a large fraction of their small income for private "insurance" that didn't seem to cover anything. My mom owned a small travel agency, so it was not any employer-sponsored plan. I remember my dad telling me about a medicine that was $20 per pill and not covered by his Medicare, which meant my siblings and I were paying their living expenses so he could pay for drugs.

On the other hand, when they really had nothing, my mom had a brain surgery that must have cost a huge amount of money, but we never saw the bill. Must have been covered by Medicaid.

taunger says

If you think that subsidizing housing is ridiculous, health care is even worse. Are you listening Patrick?

The idea as I understand it is not a subsidy, just a national insurance plan that would be funded by ongoing contributions. Yes, some people would get more out of it than others, but insurance is like that now anyway.

I am guessing not one of you (and not one American in 100) know the historical origin of our present "healthcare system" and can accurately identify why it is that "costs" have been rising at an unsustainable pace for decades. There is not a tennis ball cost crisis. Food prices aren't spiralling out of control. Flat screen TVs, cars, gasoline, computers, auto insurance, boat insurance, apartment insurance, etc... As usual, it is Government intervention within the private markets which distort individual incentives/actions and create unsustainable situations. Even worse, the Government has fomented this unsustainability because it is useful to them and creates pressure to "socialize" the system.

A perspective on one piece of the puzzle:

http://theaffordablemortgagedepression.com/2009/07/28/common-sense-solutions-to-the-us-healthcare-problem-part-i-a-tragic-mistake-of-history.aspx

Patrick,

Very sad to hear about your parents.

As a life long Republican (until I found Ron Paul), it saddens me to see how misinformed current Republicans are about our healthcare systems. It's very similiar to the doomsday global warming threat the Democrats soaked up. Neither topic has or is being openly debated the way they both deserve.

But I must agree that a universal plan is needed. However our current government implementing this plan scares the hell out of me. The very first question that must be asked is how are we going to pay for it? Were broke!

If future entitlements are almost $50 Trillion just for a minority of the population, what will it be for all? With the illusion of it being free, everyone will eventually sign up.

The real debate needs to be the size and responsabilities of a (our) government. A true President would address this first. We havent had a true President in a long long time. Obama is as much of a puppet as any of them. Am I wrong? Afghanistan........... Does moving our troops from Iraq to Afghanistan really make a difference? The military industrial complex is so mighty, they still call those shots.

Our foreign policies suck!

Our monetary policies suck!

The Fed sucks!

Bought politicians suck!

The sooner Americans as a whole learn that they are being played, devided, manipulated and coerced, the sooner we as a nation will wake up and hold our politicians accountable. Only then, will we be able to have open discussions about how to truly do what is best for all of us (healthcare, trade, war, money).

I welcome any new discussion board, forum or topic jsut so we can actually have these conversations.

Thanks again for this great site Patrick,

Tim

It kills me that free market advocates claim the private health care system is so great when we have had 20% year over year increases in per payer costs. The worst government systems have never been that bad.

No rational human can really believe that it costs $12,000/day to stay in a middle of the road hospital - that two asprin should cost $150.00 It is hard to believe that a government system could be any worse

srla says:
"More facts and less fearmongering would go a long way towards improving the level of dialogue."

Other people mention fearmongering not being an effective method for spirited discourse, and still others ask why some of us are against improving a broken system. There's one simple answer: NIMBY.

NOT IN MY BACKYARD. We should help the poor, give them housing opportunities. But not in my backyard. We should feed people without food, but not in my backyard. We should offer healthcare options for people, but not in my backyard. I'm doing just fine, don't need those poor people driving down my property values or clogging up the sidewalks begging for food.

The people who are against this plan don't have a problem with healthcare, have jobs that offer several options to them and can afford their medications. They don't understand that healthcare is already rationed and denied on a regular basis, and that those denials translate into millions in bonuses for insurance company CEO's. One catastrophic illness and they'd change their tunes - and I hope they never are forced to do so - but until then they can't relate with the masses. Medicare & Medicaid aren't available to everyone, death often occurs before the patient is eligible.

We have doctors paying huge malpractice insurance premiums, not only because there are out of control court proceedings but also because a few (a very few) physicians are allowed to continue practicing even tho they're incompetent. Drug companies ply them with free medications, which thankfully they are able to give to patients who can't afford their medications. These are patients with insurance who haven't met their deductibles or co-pays.

We have companies that deny benefits and receive bonuses for it. We have people without insurance who must choose between healthcare and food/clothing/shelter. This isn't fearmongering - we do have people who are able to afford their healthcare and those who work for companies that "take care" of them and offer affordable healthcare.

But our country is in a financial crisis. People are losing jobs at an alarming rate and even tho COBRA payments are subsidized they still can't afford the 40% of more than $500 per month. We have companies who manipulate the system to gain as many patients as possible (see my article on hospice high pressure marketing tactics on the nursing home page)... Yea, we have problems now, and will continue to do so even if we overhaul our healthcare system.

But it's not a lib v. conservative thing. It's not a dem v. republican thing. It's a human thing. People are afraid of change, and I get that. But healthcare should not be an option. In our current system, people often don't receive ongoing preventative care and become sicker in their later years. Costs would surely decrease if we were providing adequate care for all and not treating throwing procedures at the sickest at the very end.

If Physicians and Nurses and Social Workers and Pharmacists and xray techs ran the system, everyone would receive care and costs would decrease. Profits would also decrease - we'd all make a living but those poor CEO's would have to find somone else to fuck.

I also wanted to add:

I live in Utah, my wife is a school teacher with a great medical plan. On our second day here, I had to make a trip to the ER. Un-flippin beleivable! in a good way. I was in and out in 30 minutes, including my prescription. It gets better. How about two follow calls from the Dr. directly!

With two small children, we have had our fair share of sickness and broken bones. All were met with the same kind of efficiency and compassion.

I truly believe that because Utah being such a proud community driven place, their motives of being in the medical profession are driven more than by a paycheck.

As a child, we had Kaiser. For 90% of ones needs, it was great. A possible model of a universal system. As an adult, I/we have had many different types. Most offered total care with co-pays or percentages. We definately had issues with Dr. choice & billling, but never with care.

I think a middle ground can be achieved here. A social/universal basic care with a supplimental insurance for major medical. Where the line is drawn, could only be settled upon by open discussion.

So turn off your MSNBC & FOX and start thinking for yourself America!

Oh! And we need to loose the income tax and inflation tax so we can afford to go back to a kind, caring and giving nation. Before Nixons medical reform, the hospitals were owned and operated by the universaties and churches. No one went without care and treatment was affordable. Maybe a plan implemented by a bankrupt government is just what we need. Once it's broken, we can start over with a small non intrusive government that handles the very basics (military, money, health, commerce). My .02c

"As usual, it is Government intervention within the private markets which distort individual incentives/actions and create unsustainable situations."
Uh, tell me where the "Govenment intervention" has been regarding any drug or insurance company?
The government under Bush refused the perfectly reasonable competitive negotiations with Canadian drug suppliers to bring cheaper medications to the US. I'll bet India, with their huge pharmaceutical industry, could do even better.
Deregulation has been the mantra going back to Clinton, and it's got us a stock market crash, a housing crash, and a health care system that is pushing us rapidly toward third-world status.
I wish Americans weren't so damned insular, get out more!

Patrick,

Love your site and have contributed many articles in the past... but the biggest issue with this "health care reform" lies in the fact that they are trying to push a 1,000+ page bill through that is LOADED with side items that are NOT for the betterment of all and in fact, is downright unsettling.

Personally, I voted for Ron Paul (a wasted vote, right?) but I sleep good at night. I also "wasted" my vote in 92' & 96' on Ross Perot, Ralph Nader in 2000 and Dennis Kucinich in 2004. To me, I was still excercising my right to vote and not complicit or having to take a side and stand divided against somone because of the candidate they voted for. I would like to look forward to a day when we act as one, Americans all, but that day shall never come.

Thing is, health care reform, bailouts, housing bubbles, job losses and homelessness, food stamps, etc., they are all manufactured crisises of control. They are all byproducts of the what is worse in man... greed and the energy that drives it, fear. And sadly, the people who are running the show from the top down, know that the majority of people in this world are truly like sheep (sheople). They will bow down and do whatever they are told to do to hold on to what they perceive as being valuable (their homes, their cars, their big screen tv's, etc.). In fact, most people work so damn hard because they have to pay down a mortgage (along with their out of control credit cards, loans and lifestyle full of amenities, cell phone, cable, high speed internet, eating out and entertainment spending). When you can learn how to walk away from all of these things (I did, twice) it is SO liberating and when you have yourself, NOBODY can control you.

What we are witnessing right now in this country is the end of America as we knew it (I say knew as most people don't know their history so who even knows it). This has been in the works since America was founded. An extension of the British empire and more (always wondered with all the colors available why they chose Red, White and Blue? I never bought the supposed version). Follow the money trail and those who share similar names, lineage and political and religious circles and you'll understand more of what it's about. Doing things on behalf of MANY foreign interests and ask why the CFR (look up what Hillary admitted just 2 weeks ago about who runs the government) has so much control?

NAFTA and the NAU have been in the works for decades now (I first heard of the North American Union in a fictional book written like a Tom Clancy novel back in 1991). This housing bubble was by design!!! The collapse of the banking and monetary system is by design! The reason they are spending like crazy and loaning out money is the same reason why a person who finds out they have a week to live might decide to run up their credit cards and go out in style (even if they lack a bit of integrity). This is an END GAME RUN by the powers that be and in collapsing the economy, worldwide, they are bringing EVERYONE under one monetary system.

They have everyone use to using their zip cards (I say zip for ATM, debit and other convenient fast transaction devices), buying everything from centralized distribution points (look at Sam's Club, Costco, BJ's and the likes. They are independant standing buildings, warehouses, that aren't attached by way of sheetrock to another store and can be easily fortified or defended if need be. Perfect locations for distributing vaccinations and other mandated services as well as protecting rationed goods).

EZ-Pass devices which are owned by foreign interests (look it up) and prices they can raise because the sheeple (by that time) will just keep driving for convenience and not even think of the price (out of site, out of mind). And money that is beginning to look more and more funny and like Monopoly money. Why? The same reason you can plop down chips at a casino and not think of it as REAL money. It's not gold, or silver or something backed by anything (like our fiat currency). The system is a ponzy scheme and we are being shammed.

Lastly, as for black presidents. How black is he? Nobody mentions his white mom (like Marriah Carrey's or Alicia Keys or anyone else of mixed race). And isn't "The President" the highest position in the country? Does it need further definition by way of color or if they can wear a skirt? It's THE PRESIDENT, that's it. Remember all of those silly classmates of yours who when asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" would excitedly yell out, "I want to be the President!" Guess what... not happening. It's a chosen position with many strings attached. NOBODY gets there without making many deals, concessions and being groomed to do so.

There might be racism left in this country but there has always been CLASSISM and that is what we are fighting the world over. The haves have always sold out the havenots. People have always sold out their own kind.

I for one, I am not "an American" nor limited by my sex, sexual orientation. ethnicity or social status. I just happen to be a 2nd generation, heterosexual, white male living in America (for the census poll), but most of what I do in the 168 hours that constitutes a week (eat, sleep, s**t, shower and shave, commute, work, watch movies, play video games with my son, etc.) doesn't require that I be any of these things or otherwise. 99% of life is that way... we just complicate things.

Patrick, I've been aware of the housing bubble since 2000 when I owned. I bought a condo in 99' at $134,500 and sold at $299,000 at the peak in Sept. 2005.. Walked away from buying a new home at that time which cost me a marriage but she was very happy with my investment in bullion in at $8 and a portion sold when Buffet unloaded at $21. I had my own business and then NO JOB for some time through October of 2008 and then, by God's grace, a six figure job out of nowhere and a 5BR, 3Bath, 2 car garage house on an acre, furnished with water, sewer, security and landscaping and for a mere... drum roll... $1,200 a month in the best neighborhood in town. Point is... You know that "Secret" they were advertising for some time... I know what it is and it's nothing the majority is doing, in fact, it's the contary.

Guard your emotions, bring your energy back to your center (like you did with your singular focus on this site's focus) and don't give away your power to negativity (as Benjamin Frankin said, "It brings it's own").

Condolences to you for the loss of your parents... and keep up the good work...

Jack

Patrick,

The gulf between the two sides of this argument is vast because it reflects a fundamental difference of morality. On one side you have people who believe in freedom of association, that all human relationships should be mutually beneficial. To put it another way these people believe that is wrong to steal and wrong to accept stolen goods so they are against any healthcare scheme that involves government coercion, even if they would "benefit" because they are poor.

On the other side of the debate are those who believe that people are too stupid to do what's "best". They think that government should step in and force relationships between people to exist that otherwise would not. In other words, to hell with mutually beneficial relationships, people should be ruled by force and violence. These people are your socialists, communists, and totalitarians, and you are one of them Patrick, so in short, fuck you. It looks like socialized education has failed you.

By the way, if you think insurance companies are mismanaged, inefficient, and/or evil, go start your own. You're still free to do that in modern America, but possibly not for long once we get the government "option".

Yes, I’ve descended to their level. I’m a bit ashamed of the f-word, but otherwise at a loss for how to express just how stupid medical reform opponents are being. They seem perfectly willing to cut their own throats just to express their displeasure with:
1. Having lost the election.

2. Having lost the election to a black man.

3. Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush.

Patrick, it didn't take you long to call anyone who opposes 0bamaCare, 'racists'. How trite and how expected. Thanks for clearing up any doubt any of us had about YOUR own level of discourse.

Again, I'm dismayed that a discussion on health care reform seems to have skipped past an examination and establishment of:
(1) root issues (care too expensive? care quality not good enough? etc)
(2) causes of those root issues (is care too expensive because providers are trying to recoup other losses? Or are they just being excessively greedy? etc)

I'm glad Patrick linked to Denninger's reform proposal points today; for those of you who might have missed it: Fixing Health Care: A Real Solution

Patrcik, you are and have ever been a complete gentleman.

You can't have a serious debate with anyone calling themselves Wanker.

I think the race of the president is a huge unspoken issue, and much of the opposition to rational health care reform is actually opposition to having a black man as president, "sublimated" as the psychiatrists would say.

There is also the religious belief in free markets even where they clearly can't and don't exist, as in health care, but I'm guessing that's a smaller issue.

Rational debate just isn't going to work unless the driving forces are really clear. Right now, those forces are clear only to Karl Rove, and he's not going to break character and tell you how it all really works.

In fact, I think you can explain the opposition to gun control, to good public transit, and to universal health care as fear of black people and Mexicans, and a bigger fear of their getting a free ride at the expense of white people. At least to some degree.

My mother died shortly before the election. In one of my last conversations with her, I asked her who she'd vote for if she had gotten an absentee ballot. She looked at me like I was crazy and said, "The WHITE man!"

kthomas says

Patrcik, you are and have ever been a complete gentleman.
You can’t have a serious debate with anyone calling themselves Wanker.

LOL, your 'keen observations' are astounding, sockpuppet. You join today but you have the knowledge of a Dr. Phil and can read people as if they were books. I'm so duly impressed. Thanks for sharing justmoi/Some Gee. Your sock drawer just keeps growing and growing. Must have nothing better to do.

I think the race of the president is a huge unspoken issue, and much of the opposition to rational health care reform is actually opposition to having a black man as president, “sublimated” as the psychiatrists would say.
There is also the religious belief in free markets even where they clearly can’t and don’t exist, as in health care, but I’m guessing that’s a smaller issue.
Rational debate just isn’t going to work unless the driving forces are really clear. Right now, those forces are clear only to Karl Rove, and he’s not going to break character and tell you how it all really works.
In fact, I think you can explain the opposition to gun control, to good public transit, and to universal health care as fear of black people and Mexicans, and a bigger fear of their getting a free ride at the expense of white people. At least to some degree.
My mother died shortly before the election. In one of my last conversations with her, I asked her who she’d vote for if she had gotten an absentee ballot. She looked at me like I was crazy and said, “The WHITE man!”

Oh, you are right. No one pointed out that Obama is 'black' (he's actually a Mulatto, but why quibble). Until you pointed it out, I had no idea the man had black heritage. Thanks reducing all discourse into black and white. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's mentor for more than 20 years, would agree with you without question. Anyone who opposes ObamaCare is racist. I wonder why Obama and his thugz don't run with that tagline. I'm sure all those who oppose ObamaCare will be won over by your keen observations.

It simply isn't helpful to disparage the other side's thoughts and emotions by making absurd assumptions like "being upset because you lost an election to a black man." That's insulting and absurd (I voted 3rd party, as if it matters for the issue, but feel the need to disclose before being labeled a Republican).

I just see a striking disconnect here. Patrick.net has done a great job showing how the realtors, clueless buyers, lying press articles, and horrendous government policies led to a housing bubble that nearly destroyed our economy and left many 20-40 year olds waiting patiently, but remorsefully, for the market to normalize so that we can buy.

We've seen how many horrible housing "solutions" came from the government, from the Fannie/Freddie scandals to the bailouts to govt.-encouraged mortgage adjustments to taxpayer-funded $8000 gifts for new buyers to govt.-encouraged foreclosure freezes. When I listen to most of the politicians discuss the housing crisis, from Obama to Barney Frank to McCain, I can't believe how clueless they are.

This is just housing. My family can get over renting and being screwed repeatedly by Washington and the baby boomer generation. It's just money. I don't trust these same clowns with my family's health. That's the issue. Period. I think they're all incompetent. I don't want them handling healthcare.

And yes, I have had to use my health care plan. My wife became seriously ill with an MRSA-type infection in her lungs while pregnant, was hospitalized for a long time, and came very close to dying. The care she got was amazing, and I'm extremely happy with her plan. Please don't insult the motives of those of us strongly opposed to government intervention, and I won't question yours.

Patrick, I wholeheartedly agree with your opinions on the housing market, but completely disagree with you on healthcare.

I think it is a pretentious straw man argument to bring up race in this debate. Just because your mother was a racist (per your comment), doesn't mean I am because I don't think Obama's healthcare plan is good for the country. I guess I should just lie down and shut up though because Obama is black, so he must be right.

BTW, the overwhelming majority of these people are not "medical reform" opponents, they are "Obama medical reform opponents". There's a big distinction. In order for a real debate on medical reform to occur, Obama healthcare proponents need to stop the false arguments. This is NOT about race... and it's NOT about Obama's healthcare plan or the highway. Yes Patrick, there are infinite options between no reform and Obama's reform. These options are what we should all be discussing instead.

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"Yes, I’ve descended to their level. I’m a bit ashamed of the f-word, but otherwise at a loss for how to express just how stupid medical reform opponents are being. They seem perfectly willing to cut their own throats just to express their displeasure with:

1. Having lost the election.
2. Having lost the election to a black man.
3. Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush."

ChrisM says

BTW, the overwhelming majority of these people are not “medical reform” opponents, they are “Obama medical reform opponents”. There’s a big distinction.

I think you just agreed with me.

People know we need health care reform, but they cannot accept any idea that comes from Obama. And I think I explained why.

Patrick,

I'm truly surprised that you've accepted so readily Obama's disingenuousness on health care reform. That, and that you also rotely recite the Democrat talking points as if they were established fact. They are actually in great dispute.

American health care is expensive and does need reform: precisely because of the government's involvement. Medicare is a $30 trillion unfunded liability after only forty years of operation, and while providing care for only a subset of Americans. It is an unmitigated disaster that the new 'reform' has essentially copied and writ large for all Americans (that is, all Americans except federal employees and Congress, who will retain their gold-plated coverage). If Congress were serious about reforming the system for every American, why did every Democrat refuse to co-sponsor the amendment that would have required Congress and federal employees to join the system as well? I think you know the obvious answer: they got theirs and they're not going to risk their family's lives and health by joining the rest of us.

And what of the canard that U.S. health care is worse than third world care based on life expectancy? The U.S. has far superior survivability rates for major diseases than anywhere else in the world. We have the best, most widely available medical technology of anywhere in the world. Our life expectancies in this country are skewed by the number of violent deaths and other social pathologies (esp. drugs) not present in the cultures to which we are most often compared. These pathologies have nothing to do with our health care system.

The president has guaranteed that we will be able to keep our coverage and doctors if we like them. Wrong. Your employer will make that decision for you. If they decide to change providers, you will be forced into the public plan. Obviously the public plan with its subsidies is going to crowd out private insurance. This is Econ 1A, as is the inevitability of health care rationing. When demand for free health care is unlimited, quite obviously supply will ultimately need to be rationed. That and the fact that lower, Medicare level hospital and doctor reimbursements will drive doctors out of the profession and will discourage the best and brightest from pursuing careers is medicine. Medicare patients already have difficulty finding doctors because they are a money-losing proposition for the doctor. Private insurance patients effectively subsidize Medicare patients by paying higher prices. And even at that, Medicare is a freaking fiscal disaster!

Another reason that health care is expensive in the U.S. is that we subsidize the rest of the world. Drug companies sell drugs to the EU and Canada at much lower prices because those countries mandate the discounts. The drug companies can afford to sell at low prices abroad because they still make tiny marginal profits. They would NEVER be able to fund the development of new drugs from such low margins were those low prices mandated in the larger American market. Sure, they spend a lot on marketing and 'me-too' drugs, but that is part of the capitalist system that has quite obviously shown itself to be far superior at allocating resources than any other system. This is why nearly all major pharmaceutical companies have relocated to the United States. The number of wonder drugs developed here absolutely dwarfs the number developed in the more socialized Europe and elsewhere.

Yes, there are many nuances to this debate--but it is a debate that we would not even be having if the anti-democratic mob running Congress were not stopped in its tracks by these town hall protests. I certainly don't agree with shouting down our representatives, simply because I believe that their arguments are so horribly flawed and simple to rebut (see above) that shouting is unnecessary. However, I certainly can understand why people's passions are inflamed. Every single American uses health care and the great majority of us like our coverage just fine. And we are justifiably scared that in order to fix a 10-20 percent problem, an inept Congress is going to destroy the entire system with a hastily-written bill prepared by lobbyists feeding at the trough (oops, there goes another Obama campaign promise down the toilet).

I am simply saying that we are extremely distrustful of a Congress that votes on 1,000 page bills without any idea of the contents. We are extremely distrustful of a Congress and administration who sought to jam this extremely important legislation down our throats without debate of any kind. There is NO EXCUSE for our leader's behavior--especially in the context of an administration that pledged to be the most open and transparent ever. So far, not a single piece of important legislation (the stimulus, Cap & Trade, health care) this session have been made available for anyone to see prior to votes being called for. This, my friend, is unmitigated horseshit.

It is very easy to make partisan slurs (I'm a registered Independent, not a Republican), but were I a Democrat, I'd be goddamned embarrassed by the tactics and invective being used by my party. It seems that protest--no matter how nasty and ad hominem) was fine when it was protesting the GOP, but if anybody dares to call into question or protest Democrat policies, why, those people are clearly an un-American, unruly mob of Nazis. Now really, if that is not the epitome of hypocrisy I don't know what is.

Finally, there is great irony in a man--who has built a great website that among other things has exposed the abject failure of the government-sponsored Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--supporting Obamacare. It is an undeniable fact that the more the government is involved in an industry, the more screwed up it is (e.g., the airlines, public education, Post Office, Amtrak, energy). Does health care need reform? Yes! Create a truly free market by 1) removing government-imposed coverage mandates 2) by removing goverment restrictions on the purchase of health insurance policies across state lines 3) by eliminating tax deductibility of health care expenses by corporations and giving it instead to individuals 4) by expanding health care savings accounts 5) by standaridizing on a secure health record data format to be used by all providers and 6) by ensuring that assistance was provided to those who truly need it. We could easily solve the pre-existing condition restriction issue with larger risk pools or other ideas. These simple steps would unleash the powers of choice and flexibility into the market that has been inhibited by government mandates and restrictions. These common sense steps would actually reduce COST. An impossibly complex and unworkable Congressional Rube Goldberg concoction will cause costs to soar by more trillions as the Congressional Budget Office itself has determined.

Whew. I guess this means that we're not meeting for coffee when I get back from vacation, eh?

Patrick,

As one of your earliest fans, I am disappointed to see you using expletives publicly. :(

I'm sorry you lost your parents, it is a tragedy to lose both so close to one another.

Medicare has helped my family as well, but that doesn't mean it's a good system. Medicare, IS a socialized medicine, AND it is one of the those "great" public programs that have ruined our federal fiscal balance sheet.

Medicare and Medicaid, have created trillions of debt for the US tax payer.

Medicare and Medicaid are corrupt, used and abused.

Currently, as YOU just pointed out in your own posting, if a person doesn't have insurance, medicare and medicaid will step in.

I had family that was in a fatal car accident. He didn't have insurance, and medicare paid for all his expenses. The total was $300,000.

I'm sure he is "happy", that 150 Million US tax payers (including myself) donated to his medical bills. Especially since he was out late at night, drinking, druggin and driving, and wrapped the car around a tree.

So, we DO have socialized medicine. For all kinds of people.

You point out that Fire, Police, and Elementary teachers are socialized, and are fine.

This is false.

If you want to maintain this opinion, you must accept the truth that these govt. roles are local, not FEDERAL. Local govt. services are always better than federal. The higher you go up, the poorer quality a citizen will receive. So, these levels are good, because they are local.

Also, Police, Fire, etc, have it's own problems, just look at your own site, with the "retirement spiking" articles you have posted.

If you REALLY want to compare govt. to govt. (apples to apples), you should research other wonderful federal Govt. programs that have been "successful."

Such as Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. How did that turn out?

How about Amtrak?

Should I point out others?

Anything the Federal Govt. touches, it ruins.

Patrick,

The government IS in the business of subsidizing health insurance (through tax breaks to employers but not employees health expenses which began in the Nixon years). And it is subsidizing health care costs by large fee for service programs like medicare which by nature remove accountability to consumers from the mix and rely on taxpayers for the majority of funds. The requirements for payment out of pocket do essentially require a person be broke to get full benefits, and these rules are also designed and enforced by the government.

Do you seriously want to continue this insane subsidy, and expand it rather? The government (in bed with insurance companies) gave us this system. They inflated this bubble. They want to make it bigger.

Don't be fooled. Health care is a good/service just like housing. When prices get so far out of line that no one can pay they will have to level off or come down. The only thing that will prevent prices from normalizing that is if we continue to subsidize bad behavior with tax exemptions for employers to purchase health insurance (subsidizing health insurance), and giving "free" fee for service health care as in programs like Medicare (directly subsidizing health care expenses).

You do understand what a subsidy is? (any form of coercion or redistribution of money that the free market would not normally choose). We do not have a free market system in health care, we have a government/insurance corporation monopoly driving costs up and choice down. Can't we realize that so we can fix the problem rather than expand it? Stop inflating the HEALTH CARE BUBBLE!

Worrying about socialism now is a bit like worrying about being a virgin after you're pregnant. China is literally far more pro market than we are here. I have run businesses in different countries and by far the most excessive (and irrelevant) red tape I've experienced is right here.
To those worrying about the "free market" in US health care:

1) We pay far more for drugs than any other nation. Most of them are developed right here. In a free market it is not possible to gouge a huge bloc of consumers while charging another group a vastly different price.

2) Rich Americans are in worse health than the poor in other first world countries. There are hundreds of million of people in first world countries who swear by a public OPTION. If you want private care pay for it.

3) If you haven't experienced public health care and are against it you are literally speaking about something you don't know about. Shouting doesn't equal knowledge.

Patrick,

I ask respectfully, do you not think there are any legitimate reasons someone might oppose Obama's plan? Is the plan so perfect that racism is the only possible explanation for anyone who opposes it? Besides being incredibly presumptuous and insulting, that just seems to defy logic. A large number of people were also against Hillarycare in '93 and that was obviously not an issue of racism.

For what it's worth I'd endorse Deninnger's plan 100%.

m1ckey6,

So you are saying we are socialists already? Yeah, that's about right. Well, actually we have more of a fascist system where the government chooses which companies win or lose. In true socialism the collective (aka government) would own everything (ask USSR how well that works).

Some Guy,

Were the writers of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution anarchists?

Then why did they not trust the government to do most things and instead relegated the bulk of powers to the individual states? You see they knew what an oppressive government looked like, and unfortunately the US government is now just as if not more oppressive than Britain was of the colonies in 1776.

This is because we have forgotten history and failed to enforce the Constitution which is the only true law of the land.

SomeGuy,

You are just creating strawmen. No, I don't feel the need to move to Iraq. I don't favor disbanding military, police, fire fighters, etc. So, when you're done with your strawmen, what did you actually refute?

There are some services I prefer the government handle, like the ones you mentioned. There are some I don't. Patrick.net has shown how these fools in Washington have seriously screwed up the housing market. I don't think the odds are good that they can do it well with health care. Extending the argument to absurdities (arguing against military, firefighters, etc.) is a red herring.

You say I am against "fixing" healthcare. No, I would also prefer a system that's cheaper, more effective, etc. But if the government is going to fix healthcare just like it's "fixing" the economy and "fixing" the so-called credit crisis and "fixing" housing, I don't want to subject my family to that fix.

And what really worries me is that the politicians aren't honestly addressing what we'd have to give up to fix it their way. So far, it's nothing but hastily submitted, massive bills with promises that it will be cheaper, better, not affect care for those who are already happy, etc. Candor over fluffy, pie-in-the-sky lies is important.