patrick.net

Some Guy,

I hope you will read my posts and also do some research on your own to find that the government (in bed with health insurance companies) gave us this system.

They inflated the health care bubble by their policies and now you want to give them more power.

Who was it who had the quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Stop the madness. Stop the health care bubble by getting government out of the mix!

I have to say, one of the things that truly makes me laugh when I see these town hall meeting idiots, is their complete and utter inability to draw a distinction between socialism and communism.

Anytime somebody even remotely brings up the notion of the government running something, people scream to blue heaven that we are on our way to fascism and communism. What that demonstrates is the complete inability of people to understand the definitions of the terms. It smacks of such unbelievable ignorance that I am just stunned sometimes by the sheer weight of the stupidity I see in my fellow countrymen.

And where were these same people during the Bush years when the government grew by HUGE amounts and basically started functioning as a shadow organization accountable to no one. The suspension of habeas corpus. The warrantless wiretapping. The removal of people in specific positions because they disagreed with the administration. (Attorney firings) The outing of a CIA agent. A war fought based on lies and false pretense. Cronyism. Et Cetera, Et Cetera.
Were the people at these town hall meetings vocalising the FASCISM that was occurring there? I wonder.

From a political standpoint, we ALL agree that we need health care reform. All the stats and polls agree with that assertion. My only issue with Obama right now is he is trying to move it along too quickly without thinking it through. As someone who lived in Canada but is now a US citizen, I will agree that the Canadian system is better than the US one. But it is NOT the best in the world. France holds the number one spot for health care in the world and their system is actually a hybrid. So yes, lets tackle health care reform. But lets think it through and discuss it in a CIVIL manner. Not act like a bunch of petulant children.

Some Guy,

BTW, I did not let Bush trample all over our rights any more than you did. If you agree that we need to enforce the Constitution then please join me in spreading the word.

Well, this is tiresome and why I normally lurk instead of post, but I was surprised by Patrick's racism accusation and wanted to post.

Some guy, most of the government services you mentioned as good examples (police, fire fighters, waste treatment), etc., are local ones, not federal ones. But I also support having an FBI, CIA, military, etc., so I have no blanket opposition to federal government for certain roles. Yes, I do have an opposition to government-run health care for the reasons I already mentioned in my first post. There's no need to keep regurgitating them.

This is a problem with forums and much political dialogue - to argue against the opposition, their positions are reduced to simple absurdities (you're racist, you're socialist, you're anarchist). We end up shouting past each other and repeating the same talking points over and over again while calling those that disagree fools.

To sum up (and to make my last post on the issue to avoid spamming unless something substantive is really being debated vs. the common "you're an idiot if you don't agree with me" stuff), I posted for these reasons:

1. Shock that Patrick would accuse those against the govt healthcare of being racists. Surely, there's a small fraction that are driven by this, but the reasonable majority of those on each side of the issue should talk civilly and without insults. If I'm against Obama's housing policies instead of his health care, does that make me a racist?

2. Patrick.net has highlighted how much worse the Bush and Obama administrations have made the housing crisis. I find it striking that many Patrick readers believe the same politicians responsible for hastily pushing through such lame housing legislation can hastily push through effective healthcare reform legislation.

That's all. Thanks for reading and commenting.

Finally, some one asked the damn question:

Sen Clair MaCaskill asked "how many have medicare... now do you want to get rid of it" no hands went up

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-St-Louis-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m8d11-Video--Senator-Claire-McCaskill-keeps-calm-and-cool-amongst-uncivil-town-hall-crowd

(second video)

When I see, the old, pissed-off people shouting, "keep government out of it", I think
- they are on medicare
- they are probably drawing social security
both are govt programs! The hypocrisy is astounding.

(Now we know social security & medicare are under funded, but that is another problem)

Diomedes,

I suggest you study how the nazis ran their government/economy with a federal-business partnership just about everywhere you looked. You will find numerous parallels with our own system, growing more and more fascist since Bush came to office and unfortunately Obama is not undoing those changes but rather expanding on them.

OK TXG - lets debate:

>> Lost in the shouting are legitimate questions regarding reform:

Please acknowledge that a lot of the shouting is coming from certain kinds of people who do not seem to have thought through - well anything.

>> What effect will it have on medical innovation, seeing as how the US currently carries the world’s water in this area?

No effect. Drug companies get paid by government or by private insurance. But they get paid regardless. Even with the public plan, the US will spend more per capita on health insurance than any other country in the world. If that is not enough to "hold the world's water", then I guess it is time to pour some of it down on other countries.

>> Will we have enough doctors to service the increased demand?

An acquaintance of mine lost his job and was told by his insurance company that is $550 dollar a month insurance "does not cover doctor visits". Please take a moment and imagine that. An insurance plan that costs an arm and a leg but does not include doctor visits! I mean - seriously - how much worse can it get?

The government plan will pay doctors market rates. When demand increases, those rates go up and eventually that will cause supply to go up. That is how markets work. The only real losers here are the insurance companies. I am guessing the demand for their $550 insurance plan that "does not cover doctor visits" is going to be slightly affected.

>> How will abuses (excessive emergency room visits, lifelong smoking, etc.) in the system be handled?

Copay.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy,

I hope you will read my posts and also do some research on your own to find that the government (in bed with health insurance companies) gave us this system.

They inflated the health care bubble by their policies and now you want to give them more power.

Who was it who had the quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Stop the madness. Stop the health care bubble by getting government out of the mix!

I hope YOU do some research. Then you might realize that the high prices you pay are going straight to the PRIVATE insurance industry, not the government. Look up the salaries of the CEOs of the major health insurance companies. Look up how much they have given to members of Congress to influence their votes. Stop the madness indeed.

Some Guy,

Actually the high prices are a result of the government granted monopolies of insurance companies through tax exemptions for employer purchased health insurance (established by your beloved government) and through fee for service programs like Medicare that take virtually all accountability to consumers out of the mix.

Government/insurance industry together blew this bubble. Can't you see it????

And what is all this rubbish about the 'government screwing up housing'? The government may have contributed, but the real crime was Wall Street. They created the derivatives engine that fueled this mania and it was DEREGULATION and the removal of Glass-Steagle that additional fueled this great unwinding. The Fed, for all its government links, is NOT a government agency. It was originally created by bankers as a way to avoid depressions. Why? Not because they were an empathic bunch; but because depressions hurt their assets. So they devised a wonderful scheme whereby they could crush the dollar anytime they wanted by creating monetary inflation thereby ensuring their asset values remained high. Of course, it all blew up in the Great Depression and recently. Demonstrating that anytime you tinker with something that is simply supposed to be governed by natural likes (like a spring) you get what we have now.

The government did add to the mess with those idiotic Fannie and Freddie agencies. But that was just adding a small amount of gasoline to an already burning forrest.

"I suggest you study how the nazis ran their government/economy with a state business partnership...."

Rubbish.

permanent_marker, we are a most hypocritcal people.

Diomedes,

In case you hadn't noticed. Wall street has been running our government for years. Rubin and Paulson ring a bell? In Goldman we trust.

kthomas,

if you don't understand history you will most likely get the opportunity to repeat it

Here's the big mistake: People are fighting and getting distracted from the essential which is the fundamental right to accessibility to quality healthcare without discrimination about your income, race age and pre-existing conditions. There will always be an army to scare you about change, always.

I heart Patrick.

It's obviously true what you said about the political bias of many "puppets" of the health care
special interests. I would change number 3 to read:

3. Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush, and 15 times smarter than they are.”

The good news is that republican party which isn't all bad, but is dominated by corporate interests, and the interests of the rich, has destroyed itself, with the tactics it employed to gain a majority. It started back with the so called "moral majority." This was a way to break in to the conservative southern part of the democratic party. But it has now gone so far, that even many of the the corporate puppet masters must be ashamed of the Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Anne Coulter types who spew ignorance and hatred (which does have an appeal to many) as it main theme.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. At this point, the rich combined with the low brow "white trash" constituency just aren't enough for them to win elections. Still, i do fear how our current economic situation plays out.

Many republicans now must actually hope for such extreme failure of Obama, and for things to be so terrible that fear mongering and hatred can bring them back to power. Ironically some of them refer to Obama as Hitler like.

2ndClassCitizen, agreed. I just think your Nazi analogy is rubbish. Don't take it personal.

Please excuse the digression. I know this thread was supposed to be about health care reform. Many previous comments, including Patrick's reflected my point of view. The president did a good job yesterday as well. I heard it wasn't even covered by Fox.

"Fair and balanced" baby.

rhaman, your freedoms will remain intact. You will still have a private option.

Rhaman, did you read this ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/health/policy/10facts.html?_r=1&ref=patrick.net

It's from today's list of Links by Patrick.

Let me guess. You don't need to. Just a "gut feeling ?"

Also Rhaman,... Let's hope that you never have a preexisting condition. For that matter, hopefully
you never get sick and only pay your premiums (or your employer does as a benefit).

Under those circumstances, you and your insurer will remain very happy with your "freedoms."

justicular says

Perhaps some of those opposed to this do not believe that this is the roll of the federal government. Let us assume they can do it better and cheaper, does that make it the roll of the government? At what price do we sell our freedom?

yeah, yeah, Federal govt can't do anything right.

So
- don't drive on freeways from now on (it is built by fed money)
- throw your grandma under a bus (she is likely no Medicare and we don't want to do that any more, right)
- shutdown the defense department & dissolve the armed forces
- shutdown VA (Veterans Affairs) hospitals, so our men in uniform can pay out of their own pocket for that war injury.
- FDA won't check imported food from China, so if you die from lead poisoning, it is too bad.

And 'freedom' are you going to give away? you can still keep your overpriced private health insurance. You don't have to get the 'public option'... it is called OPTION, get it?

Don't take any thing you read on Interwebs, including this comment, and written by some one called 'I-can-see-russia-from-my-house' :-)

Yes it fascinates me you get a roomful of "anti-socialists" together and ask them are you going to MARCH & PROTEST & DEMAND the complete shutdown of:

MediCare
MedicAid
Social Security

Particularly if they are close to drawing on any of these they say HELL NO but these same people say if we pass new program then American Paradise will turn into 1970's Russian Hell complete with waiting on line for hours to get rationed toilet paper. Seems more like a bunch of Dittohead whack jobs who can't reconcile their own hypocrisy but are willing to rant anyhow. I do not think it's fair to call them "puppets" of the insurance barons, I think it's more correct to call them "useful fools".

Since Obama's health care will kill more people earlier and cost more while violating liberty at the same time, Patrick, since you went there, all I can say is "fuck you too." Not that you care, but you've just lost one reader forever, asshole

jd, thanks for letting us know you will not return, this is good. But, please do enjoy watching our President and the Democrats succeed. ;)

SSome Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy,

Actually the high prices are a result of the government granted monopolies of insurance companies through tax exemptions for employer purchased health insurance (established by your beloved government) and through fee for service programs like Medicare that take virtually all accountability to consumers out of the mix.

Government/insurance industry together blew this bubble. Can’t you see it????

Then why do you oppose fixing it?

Some Guy,

I propose we DO FIX IT. The government ought to get out of the picture all together and quit offering tax exemptions that effectively subsidize insurance companies: and end the growth of fee for service programs like Medicare that drive costs up. (I am not saying end Medicare, just that medicare is inflating this bubble. Any further government involvement is just going to inflate this bubble in health care even further.)

I used to like your website because you made lots of sense and provided a melting pot for good and goofy information. Not only about the "housing crash," but about other financial details that were affected by the crash. You also supported Ron Paul, kudos’s to ya. But when Ron Paul had to concide, you turned to spare change. That was disappointing, but none the less your choice and I respect that. It also was misleading to think you were all about our debt addiction and getting away from it. With your new crusade with government run health care I question your judgment. The final blow, for me, came when you lowered yourself to name calling like a lot of your pundits on your forums. I only joined your forum yesterday, but like most blogs it is only full of hateful, spiteful, one-sided, useless, repetitive opinions. Sorry that the government couldn't come the rescue of your dying parents, maybe they would have lived longer. My father died of an aneurism while he was being taken from the emergency room to the x-ray, nothing that any kind of health care would have been able to take care of. None the less he is dead. I have no regrets because the last three words I spoke to my father was “I love you.” I hope you get back on track. Good luck and good bye.

kthomas,

You might change your opinion if you understood how National Socialism regulated business in Germany during their reign.

Kingdombuilder :

I heard him say he was uncomfortable with what he had said. Are you the kind of self righteous jerk who rubs someones face in it, when you know that even they regret saying something ?

Do you have a well informed opinion that you can articulate ?

I think that many of us are willing to learn. Mostly what patrick is about is reading and sharing links to what others are saying. For example he includes arguments on both sides of the inflation deflation question.

Don't you have anything other than your self righteousness to share ?

2ndClassCitizen, I appreciate your concern(s), I just don't think it is you that understands history, namely Nazi Germany.

The German people of post WWI and thier lives, and thier country, do not in anyway compare to the America of today. Your analogy is not only false, but probably racist. And by that, I am not calling you a racist. Left or right, anytime we disagree with a government program or decision, we stoop to comparing to to Nazi Germany. I opposed much of what Pres Bush did, but NEVER would I compare that man to a Nazi or Adolph Hitler. Likewise, anyone comparing Pres Obamas ATTEMPT to reform a clearly broken health care system to Naziism is stooping to the lowest caliber. Shame on you, sir.

Kingdom builder: What does your imaginary friend have to say about health care? Oh crap I remember...............It's all in God's plan! Glad your gone idiot. Next!

kthomas,

Shame on you sir for implying racism. That shows who is stooping to what caliber.

Some Guy,

The government is SUBSIDIZING health insurance companies by giving tax exemptions to companies who purchase health insurance for their employees. Citizens can't get this subsidy only businesses. Government is blowing this health care bubble by its tax policies and fee for service plans like Medicare.

"And by that, I am not calling you a racist."

Please read moe carefully. Just because you oppose something and feel free to compare to Naziism does not absolve you of ignornace, or insensitivity to others. And do read more carefully, sir, and I do sincerely apologize to you.

kthomas,

I accept your apology but you clearly did imply racism. You can't imply racism and then take it back in the next sentence. The cat is already out of the bag. You also are accusing me of insensitivity just because you don't agree with me. That is a shame.

Cool.

Just trust, sir. Stay away from the Nazi analogies. It's not going to help anyone, and you'll be glad ya did. What we can both agree on is that Naziism was bad for Germany and the rest of the world.

kthomas,

I am sorry that Nazi analogies offend you, but there was more to National Socialism than just racism. In fact most Germans were not racists, but they did allow people who were to take control. It was about expanded government control and government in the hands of madmen. If it happened once it can happen again. We would be foolish to think it could not. That is why we must keep government to the limited confines of the constitution. I don't care who has power (Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, Capitalists you name it), if they have too much power much we are in danger.

:) As soon as I see madmen, I will reach out to you and we will fight them togther!

Hey Diomedes,

The fed is a government created entity. They have a license from the federal government to print money which no one else has or can get. How can you say they are private?

Hey some guy,

If you think you health insurance companies are inefficient, mismanaged, and/or evil, why don't you start your own? This is America and there is nothing stopping you. If these companies are so bad it should be no problem for you to go and sign up all of your hippie liberal friends. I know hard work is kryptonite to liberals, but you'd really be making the world a better place. Go for it.

Hey several people,

A public "option" will ruin private health care, much like public schools. Everyone will be forced to pay for the expensive and low quality public option so you will only be able to afford private care if you are rich. Most of the middle class will be forced into the shitty public "option", that's a fact, and you need look no further than the school system to see what lies ahead.

kthomas says

As soon as I see madmen, I will reach out to you and we will fight them togther!

It's a deal! Unfortunately if history is our guide it we can reach a point where it is too late for us to prevail once we give away too much power.

"The fed is a government created entity. They have a license from the federal government to print money which no one else has or can get. How can you say they are private?"

Actually, the Federal Reserve Act was based off of the Aldrich Plan, which essentially gave the power to coin money to an agency that was essentially private. Here is the excerpt from wikipedia:

"Since the Aldrich Plan essentially gave full control of this system to private bankers, there was strong opposition to it from rural and western states because of fears that it would become a tool of certain rich and powerful financiers in New York City, referred to as the 'Money Trust"

"The Federal Reserve System has faced a considerable amount of opposition over the course of its existence. The first debates primarily regarded its constitutionality, private ownership of a central bank, and the degree to which the economy should be centrally planned, with luminaries such as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison being some of the first central bank detractors"

And as the above poster indicated, with such a powerful banking lobby in place, it is easy to sway Congress and the Senate. So our government now becomes the tool of these bankers and private interest groups who use their influence to make decisions for their own personal benefit at the expense of others.

Patrick, you are right.