patrick.net

I would like to add this: the best way to redistribute wealth is through commerce.

Exactly! And the best way to redistribute poverty is through social engineering.

thunderlips11 says

Another great way is to make what we consume, rather than borrow to buy imports

You may see more of that. A cheap dollar and high fuel (shipping) prices may "inshore" some previously offshored manufacturing. Of course, you may see built in America by foreign marks. Similar to the Toyota Tundra being American made with mostly American parts. Same with some Honda, Nissan, BMW, and soon some Hyundai models.

The Honda Odyssey is built in the USA with American made engine and transmission. The Chevy Silverado is a foreign vehicle with mostly foreign parts. The Taxi company I work for has bought hundreds of Chevy Impalas. Despite the domestic branding, every one of them is an import. The "Built in North America" phrase is just the way Ford and GM try to disguise as domestic cars those vehicles they build in Canada and Mexico.

Anyway, capitalism has its ways to ensure optimality. Under every system, there will be winners and losers. Enterprising individuals will try to become winners; losers will be better off when added value trickles down. Social engineering will eventually make everybody a loser.

I agree with you Peter that commerce can reduce poverty, however, subconcious discrimination would thwart efforts to the group not seen as favorable. So, should you or I go in for an interview we might not receive that job due to the perceptions of the person interviewing...regardless of race. This can apply to discrimination against ugly people, as we have seen in numerous studies.

Thuderlips & Headset:

Toyota employs 7,000 Americans and 70,000 japanese nationals. GM used to employ 68,000 Americans and that is down to 34,000.

You do the math and tell me whom benefits the American worker more so?

So, should you or I go in for an interview we might not receive that job due to the perceptions of the person interviewing…regardless of race.

It is just intuition. Everybody uses intuition to some degree. I do not see a problem.

(That said, racist people use racist intuition. This is why it is important for people to change from inside out.)

You do the math and tell me whom benefits the American worker more so?

American workers will benefit from economic growth when people stop asking what benefits who and simply flow with the grains of the market.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/nobel.asp

Nah.

He was offered the prize on the condition not to attack this [?] country. Bush turned down the prize.

I am not a big fan of Bush, but if that is true he deserves some more respect. I doubt it though. $1.4M is not going to change the course of American history. (Perhaps the history of one Palo Alto home.)

The Market is not a god, and economics is not an oracle.

You are right that the market is not _a_ god. Market is God.

One can think of Universe or Nature as a giant Market, with karma being the currency. (Karma needs not have a goody-feely definition. It may simply be some action-reaction kind of thing, more like ripples in a pond.)

Economics is more like astrology, which is fascinating at times.

"The Honda Odyssey is built in the USA with American made engine and transmission. The Chevy Silverado is a foreign vehicle with mostly foreign parts."

Unionized vs non-unionized workers maybe ?

"The Honda Odyssey is built in the USA with American made engine and transmission. The Chevy Silverado is a foreign vehicle with mostly foreign parts."

Unionized vs non-unionized workers maybe ?

4X...Poor Righteous Teacher says

Obama won the Nobel prize because he is a transformational history in American politics. With our history of oppression and enslavement, he embodies the fact that the American dream is still alive today.
1. For those of you who question his birth rights, I say that you should leave your rural neighborhoods to become a part of the rest of society, stop dating your cousins and pursue an education higher than the 3rd grade level. Even my 3 year old can read through the rhetoric of his birth rights.

Zip Code 94109.
Check your post for grammatical and typo errors - then come back and criticize other people's 3rd grade level of education.
It is easy and cheap to post rants. Read a thread on this blog named "Birthers" - feel free to ask any questions.

2. For those of you who doubt his qualifications for the Nobel Prize, remember, he is the leader of the free world…something that you or I will never accomplish. He has brought many together under one single cause with just a few inspirational speeches, something many of your pastors have yet to accomplish. Relish this moment in history, grow your families and stop being anti-Obama for the simple fact the entire world was anti-BUSH.

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

3. For those of you that hold his articulation in disdain, try reading a book. He is the most articulate canidate we have ever seen…I wouldnt pass on him for a job interview and couldnt pass on his run for President.

Let me repeat my question from few days ago: How does one become a Constitutional Law scholar without a single paper published anywhere? The book "Dreams From My Father" was not written by Obama - the ghost writer was Bill Ayers. Book is full of unusual phrases and typo errors identical to those in Ayers' earlier book.

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

With all the problems in the US and abroad, you're concerned with a nod of the head? Are you kidding me?

tatupu70 says

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

With all the problems in the US and abroad, you’re concerned with a nod of the head? Are you kidding me?

I'm going to ask you something and answer honestly so I can respect you as either a real patriot or a marginalize you as another one way Lefty.

Did you have the same cavalier response to the image of G.W. Bush doing the sword dance?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/president-bush-shouldnt-p_b_81998.html

nosf41 says

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

Then again, most of the "free world" does not consider the US their "leader." Right, we don't have to apologize or bow to anybody--and other nations may feel inclined to return the favor. But, I do miss when the US was a "great nation"--when we could act unilaterally, unapologetic for our actions or words. It sounds reassuring; we could try that with our allies, but good luck whenever we need to benefit from diplomacy.

Tenouncetrout says

I’m going to ask you something and answer honestly so I can respect you as either a real patriot or a marginalize you as another one way Lefty.

When you put it that way, how can I refuse? Because you know that I go to bed worrying whether you think I am a "one way lefty"... And I fear that our definitions of patriot are somewhat different, so I probably wouldn't consider it a compliment if you called me such.

But, in any event, I find most of what W. did to be somewhat comical. So, my reaction was a combination of embarrassment and humor--not because he was engaging in a Saudi custom, but more because often I couldnt' tell the difference between the real Bush and a Will Farrell impersonation...

thunderlips11 says

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

...well, it's okay to make out with 'em, but not to bow. And certainly, bush woulda been the one slipping the tongue rather than receiving.

One of the worst photochops I've ever seen. Atleast out up real pics.

The other shoe is soon going to drop as things are not getting better, in fact every month things are getting worse. You can't keep printing money and producing nothing and expect a good ending.

I predict, like the mayans did, that by 2012 will begin to see some very scary destruction going on. Masses of homeless, unemployed, and pissed off people roaming the cities and highways. Be scared, be very scared.

2012prophecy.net

4X...Poor Righteous Teacher says

Thuderlips & Headset:
Toyota employs 7,000 Americans and 70,000 japanese nationals. GM used to employ 68,000 Americans and that is down to 34,000.
You do the math and tell me whom benefits the American worker more so?

If one buys a Honda Accord (Ohio), a Toyota Tundra (Texas), a Nissan Sentra (Tennessee), or Honda Odyssey (Alabama), he is supporting American manufacturing jobs. Much more so than buying a foreign built Ford or GM model, regardless of how many US workers GM or Ford may have.

Tenouncetrout says

tatupu70 says

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

With all the problems in the US and abroad, you’re concerned with a nod of the head? Are you kidding me?

I’m going to ask you something and answer honestly so I can respect you as either a real patriot or a marginalize you as another one way Lefty.
Did you have the same cavalier response to the image of G.W. Bush doing the sword dance?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/president-bush-shouldnt-p_b_81998.html

The video has been removed from that link. I could only see the still image with Bush holding the sword.
It is difficult to judge whether this was an entertainment among equals or Bush was making fool of himself. Did Bush bow down to the Saudi king?

thunderlips11 says

nosf41 says

Leader of the free world does not go around apologizing to everyone and does not bow to a foreign country leader (Saudi king).

How about this?

How does one become a Constitutional Law scholar without a single paper published anywhere?

How does one go about being a Millionaire Entrepreneur when every business they ever owned went bankrupt?
But then again, Ken Lay…

We are in complete agreement there. We can neither call Obama a constitutional law scholar nor Bush a successful entrepreneur.

I am aware of the first picture. I have seen the video on nightly news with Bush and Saudi king walk hand in hand.
It looks unusual to me, but in Arabic culture this is apparently a normal behavior between friends.

If you wanted a serious discussion about the topic, why did you post the fake "kiss" photo. It only portrays you as a partisan hack.

NOSF41:

Whether our presidents hold hands, bow, hug or kiss other countries leaders they are the leaders of the free world.

America always has the option of shoving a M1 Carbine down anyones back in order to hold them accountable, with the #1 military in the world you better believe these countries no we are not kidding around. The past 8 years we have made no improvements in education, foreign policy, economics, or with the war against terror.

Here is how I see it:

Education - No child left behind is nice in theory but in reality without the receiving the same funding as we did with Iraq, the program will fail. I was happy to see Bush Jr. kick off this program but it still needs funding else we should prepare to watch it fail. We must UP our investment in education and lower our investment in WAR. We need to kick the parents in the butts to make this program successful, there needs to be less TV and more time spent reading, studying the various subjects provided.

War Against Terror - There were no weapons of mass destruction, therefore, we are fighting for unknown reasons and spending unnecessarily to protect a nation that we destroyed. 50B per year to fund this war, and Obama is continuing the same policies. This leads me to believe once he got into office he found out we have other long term interests at play with the region...."interests" that the American public have not been made aware. We need to refocus our efforts on what is going on in America, Obama needs to act on what he said he would and get our troops out of these failed states. Yes, we should leave a residual force to prevent any of our enemies from interferring in local matters. Yes, we should reap the benefits of the oil profits...we own these countries. Invest that 1.2billion in innovations of weapon technologies and FBI agents.

Economics - This is not a partisan issue. Plain and simply, George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, George Bush Jr. did not push for any regulations on businesses or the financial sector. They were too busy reversing the S&L and DOT com downturns. The Gramm-Leach act repealed regulations put forth after the crash of 1929 leaving the gates wide open for creative loans. Bush Sr.-Clinton-Bush Jr. in their attempts to ward off the S&L Crisis of 1989 and the DOT com crash of 1999 had no other choice. It worked for a little while but as with all gimmicks it did not last. We cannot fund GDP with the equity in the housing market, we have to bring jobs back to America and allow the markets to reset. Prices of products, real estate must drop to a point where they are in line with salaries. New industries must be created and dominated by American businesses, trickling down to the American Worker, then to the products that we buy.

Again, do not let the negative atmosphere surrounding the Bush presidency hold you back from supporting our current president. We are attempting to move forward with progress in the form of job creation, regulation, improved health care, and displomacy. With all the negative press the US has received the past 8 years, we needed a statesmen in the office of president....someone who could lead us down the right path in terms of foreign policy, education, war, and economics. Simply put, we cannot afford to bully our neighbors when we have our very own internal issues that need to be dealt with.

If you plan to respond, try using facts in place of the one liners that you have been using to answer my previous posts. You seem to want to answer a question with a question or deflect attention from the facts.

Fact - The Gramm-Leach act caused this downturn and was a poor attempt to stifle the S&L Crisis and Dotcom bust.
Fact - Less regulation has allowed an increase in the risks taken by the financial sector
Not Fact - If we bow or hold hands with other nations leaders, we are not the leaders of the free world.

Go with the facts in your reply.

4X

Thunderlips:

I have concerns over that also, us not making products is the #1 cause of the slowdown in our GDP. If we bring jobs back, then our GDP will increase tenfold.

"If Economics is a science, how come most of the economists didn’t see this happening? Weather Forecasters generally reach easy consensus when a hurricane is forming. They don’t all miss the fact of a tropical storm developing. The Market is not a god, and economics is not an oracle."

In response, I foresee either prices of products decreasing to match the wages and/or a deep decline in the # of middle class families in which both scenarios will lead to a drop in revenues for the corporations of America. Now, that does not take into consideration the influx of people coming to our country that will sustain corporate revenues. Either way, the American Dream (House, Family, and Adventure of Vacations) will be lost for many...primarily the middle class and poor.

What are you thoughts on the direction of the American Dream?

Peter P:

In response to your reply below, NO, I dont want to punish thought crimes. I want to ensure that competitive advantage is not given to those in the workplace simply because they are "likeable". Every sport in America gives competitive advantage to the best performer and not the canidate who is likeable. In business, however, we are able to use influence and politics to gain a competitive advantage. This is not what is considered "Equal Employment Opportunity". Yes, bias exists in every one of us but we must keep moving forward with new practices that avoid promoting the "likeable" and actually promote the most "competitive" canidate. For example, it is a proven fact that not so good looking people and women make 15% less than the white male. This also applies to minorities, whom are sometimes discounted from the interview process through name recognition (Laquita, Maria, Jose, Jamal)....this trend has to stop.

I agree that the spread of capitalism will result in the trickle down of wealth, however, quoting Rush Limbaugh only shows that you are willing to stand by a bigot. He holds power in the Republican party only because 25% of the base left the Democratic party after the passing of the Civil Rights act of 1964. These persons could not fathom women & minorities being a part of the American Dream.

America has done a great job of righting the ills of society however, the subconscious discriminatory behaviours still exist.
Do you want to prosecute thought crimes now? One cannot legislate niceness. That subconscious discrimination will only grow stronger. The best way to right the ills of society is to promote economic development by spreading capitalism. Through the elimination of poverty our differences can be reconciled. “Poverty and Suffering are not due to unequal distribution of goods and resources, but to the unequal distribution of capitalism” - Rush Limbaugh

Leader of the "Free" world.

The last 8 years has taught me that "Free World" is a small word, used to justify horrific atrocities.

I wouldn't feel "Free" if any country was over here for any reason, bombing my neighborhood and killing people at weddings and shit.

We used to be the leader of the "Free world" but the Internet is now. So step down off the podium gramps that jig is up.

Every sport in America gives competitive advantage to the best performer and not the canidate who is likeable.

But life is a game, not a sport. Being likable is most definitely one of the most important competitive advantages, perhaps after force projection.

I do not understand the animosity toward Rush Limbaugh. He has many good ideas and he is successful enough to have a Gulfstream G550.

BTW, any real capitalist will only see color green in people. Any employer who ignores competitive advantages will not thrive or even survive for long.

On the other hand, the government ought not to tell employers who they can hire and who they should not reject. This is not how the market works. And it is most definitely how we should not force the world to change.

The Internet allows every person to become a soft moralist in the comfort of his home, without real actions. I don't care if the Internet is more than a series of tubes but if this trend continues our downfall is nigh.

Peter P says

I do not understand the animosity toward Rush Limbaugh. He has many good ideas and he is successful enough to have a Gulfstream G550

Unfortunately, it has been proven time and again that it does not take intelligence or morality to become wealthy. Jon Gosselin can probably afford a Gulfstream, certainly Howard Stern can. Rush made his money by spouting half-truths, bogus hypotheticals, and outright lies. All of it designed to scare.

And, don't worry. The world is not going to end. US is not going the way of the Roman Empire... The country has been in far worse predicaments in the past and has come out fine. Remember the public debt as a % of GDP was actually higher during the end of Reagan's term than it is now. Even after the worst recession since the Great Depression. And it was much, much, much higher after WWII. The country will have to make some hard choices and tighten the belt, but it will. Clinton showed how much can be saved in a short time.

Peter P says

I do not understand the animosity toward Rush Limbaugh.

I had a boss who had to listen to Rush on the AM radio EVERY SINGLE day. I can't understand why people feel they have to listen to his show every day other than craving for reinforcing their ideas? The repetitious hatred reminded me of fire&brimstone preachers. It's pretty sad that some people need that kind of brainwashing & bile to feel good about themselves.

Clarence 13X says

Go with the facts in your reply.
4X

Hi Lorenzo (or whatever your alias of the day is)

Which fact is questionable in my previous post: Obama did not publish a single law paper and became a constitutional law scholar?

Please spare us praises of Obama's greatness if you are not willing to address a simple question on the topic.

Could you create separate posts on Miscellaneous thread about each individual Obama's policy you want to promote? It will be easier to debate separate issues rather than compiling everything into an unrelated topic.

"And, don’t worry. The world is not going to end. US is not going the way of the Roman Empire… The country has been in far worse predicaments in the past and has come out fine. Remember the public debt as a % of GDP was actually higher during the end of Reagan’s term than it is now. Even after the worst recession since the Great Depression. And it was much, much, much higher after WWII. The country will have to make some hard choices and tighten the belt, but it will."

Actually the public debt as % of GDP under Reagan was about 40% lower than today and only about 20% higher after WWII. See http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_debt_chart.html . That's not even taking into consideration at least 1 trillion additional dollars a year of debt for as far as the eye can see. Huge amounts of the public debt during WWII was spent buying armaments aka building up industry that was battered by the depression. Industry promptly switched to producing consumer items after the war with almost no competition since the entire rest of the industrialized world was smoking ruin. Private debt was virtually non existent in 1945. There were no unfunded federal liabilities to the tune of 70 trillion dollars aka social security,medicare, and medicaid in 1945. State and local governments did not have unfunded liabilities, aka public employee health and pension systems amounting to god only knows how much in 1945.

Pretty stark and grim comparison between then and now. Public debt can be productive as the period after WWII and the Guilded age proved. But the debt must be a real investment in the future, not an orgy of public spending with nothing to show for it. No country in history has run up this kind of unproductive debt and remained economically viable. Excessive borrowing cannot be cured by more borrowing. It won't be the Roman Empire since there are no Vandals or Visigoths living in Canada planning the sack of Washington DC, although it might be a pretty good idea. It could however very easily be Argentina of the early 20th century or Britain after WWII when the wealthiest country in the world at the time very abruptly became an economic footnote. Anyone who doesn't believe this is possible needs to read a lot more history. It has happened for thousands of years time and time again. Time will tell. I really hope I am wrong, but the numbers are daunting at best.

I was really surprised that a canny politician like Obama didn't listen to people like Volker and take the pain as soon as he got in office so he could dump all the blame on Bush. Punting the problems down the road means things are very likely to really blow up in his face just in time for the next presidential election. When are the hard choices and the belt tightening due to start? There haven't been any so far in this entire crises. Just borrowing more and more money. Don't worry, be happy.

Bob-

bob2356 says

I was really surprised that a canny politician like Obama didn’t listen to people like Volker and take the pain as soon as he got in office so he could dump all the blame on Bush. Punting the problems down the road means things are very likely to really blow up in his face just in time for the next presidential election. When are the hard choices and the belt tightening due to start? There haven’t been any so far in this entire crises. Just borrowing more and more money. Don’t worry, be happy.

You can't tighten the belt during a recession. If we learned anything from the Great Depression, I would hope that is it. First you stimulate the economy, then you reduce spending. That's Econ 101.

First you stimulate the economy, then you reduce spending. That’s Econ 101.

I thought it should be...

First you stimulate the economy, then you spend some more. That's Gov 101.

Andrew Jackson did not stimulate the economy and the depression ended in just 5 years.

Great Depression was so great in extent only because of FDR's policies.

I really see nothing wrong about befriending oil-rich nations. That is very much in our best interest.

Guys, we need the oil.

One big reason for high tuition is simply government loan guarantees that encourage people to borrow more for college.

Thomas Sowell makes some good arguments about it here:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5171

We have an inefficient Education system that only has one answer for children. Go to college.

I totally agree. The society needs to be educated (pun intended) that degrees are NOT required in most jobs.

In fact, many jobs do not require anything beyond junior high.

A college degree will only turn a mediocre person into an indebted mediocre person.

It takes the will to thrive in the real world to transform someone into a great man.

Clarence 13X says

Go with the facts in your reply.
4X

Hi Lorenzo (or whatever your alias of the day is) Which fact is questionable in my previous post: Obama did not publish a single law paper and became a constitutional law scholar? Please spare us praises of Obama’s greatness if you are not willing to address a simple question on the topic. Could you create separate posts on Miscellaneous thread about each individual Obama’s policy you want to promote? It will be easier to debate separate issues rather than compiling everything into an unrelated topic.

Today i will be known as America the beautiful...I wasnt referencing this one line but the other 14 that were not as pointed. This is a somewhat true statement about Obama. It would be like a Liberal saying that Bush never fought in a War and or a conservative bringing up the Bill Clinton weed inhaling scandal. These points are not relevant to the betterment of our nation. How is Obama not writing a paper going to better our nation. Like I have said before, your attacks on Obama are the result of the negative tone taken towards Bush's presidency. The only difference is that Bush screwed up our nation by bringing us in this war....and from what is seems, Obama is preparing to do the same.

You wouldnt like me as your president because I would act too decisively with the following:

Cut all non-profit programs
Increase regulation on businesses in the financial sector
Cut all Welfare to immigrants
Cut all Welfare to citizens after 18 mos.
Increased penalties for gang crimes, if 1 member commits a crime then they all go to jail
Increased penalties for corporate fraud,
no profits = no bonuses
25% of all Oil revenues for IRAQ/AFGHANISTAN come to America as repayment for the buttkicking we put on those countries.
1 Month vacation for all American Workers
25% revenue penalty for all companies offshoring jobs, result would be an immediate decrease of the 10% unemployment
Pull out of Afghanistan and deal with the blowback
Pull out of IRAQ and deal with the blowback
Protect our interests in Afghanistan or Iraq...bring the Oil money here to the US

None of this has anything to do with Obama, Bush or your weak policies. America needs to exert her dominance and take control of the situation at hand.

Thunderlips:

Indian IT guys in India are 1/4 of the price of American IT guys. There is no way an American IT guy can be 400% more productive. But Indians live in India, where the cost of living is much lower. Americans live in America, where the cost of living - and college tuition - is much more expensive. 13X: Exactly, for this reason we have to bring the jobs back to America less we face further decline in housing and other markets. We cannot buy what we cannot afford. The services industry in America will never compete with Indians, Mexicans or other 3rd world countries. We are being lied to..

Economists conveniently forget that all of the Asian Tigers - Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, China - all have massive protectionist tariffs on imports - when they discuss how fast those countries grow. 13X: So its the tariffs that have been removed from our trade agreements while other countries still tax exports, heh? As I understand free trade agreements have little to do with offshoring although the two are intermingled in conversation. Please explain how free trade allows for a company to offshore and/or creates negative impact on our GDP?