patrick.net

AdHominem says

By the way, is it possible for you to make an argument in a civilized manner without making an ass of yourself?

Perhaps you should read what you write. You are confrontational, accusing, lacking a factual basis and attack others who disagree with you (which seems to be many, many people). You don't debate, you cry victim and know not whereof you speak.

In other words, it doesn't seem possible for you to make any argument in a civilized manner, and you continually make an ass of yourself. Any pertinent argument you may have is lost, and don't AdHominem says

happen to be mildly successful when compared to (your) peers

at least when it comes to presenting valid arguments. Just because you've driven so many others away doesn't make you a winner. It does, however, make you a whiner.

You know, I don't even know why we bother arguing with people like this anymore. No amount of fact, logic, or reason will change his opinions.

And lets be honest -- it's not like his opinions matter anyway.

Troy says

AdHominem says

You named a bunch of “liberal” states. Try ND, NH, MT

North Dakota population: 646,844, 70 acres of land per person (much of it highly productive), abundant energy resources — it would be hard to screw that economy up. It also helps they get $1.68 for every $1.00 they send to DC.
Wikipedia: “North Dakota is also the only state with a state owned bank, the Bank of North Dakota in Bismarck, and a state owned flour mill, the North Dakota Mill and Elevator in Grand Forks.”
OMG! ND has caught Teh Socialism!
New Hampshire, Population 1,324,575
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9DM87LG0.htm
wut? They already have Teh Socialism too!
Montana, Population 974,989
Montana is one of the bigger Red State Welfare Queens — taking in $1.50 for every dollar in taxes, so I wonder why you brought them up.
Now, I realize in your cartoon view of the economy we should all strive to be the rugged individualists of Montana and Alaska of the early 20th century.
No thanks. We can do better than that.

My point is that these states aren't broke. Are they? But otherwise it was a nice post you just had drama queen.

elliemae says

AdHominem says

By the way, is it possible for you to make an argument in a civilized manner without making an ass of yourself?

Perhaps you should read what you write. You are confrontational, accusing, lacking a factual basis and attack others who disagree with you (which seems to be many, many people). You don’t debate, you cry victim and know not whereof you speak.
In other words, it doesn’t seem possible for you to make any argument in a civilized manner, and you continually make an ass of yourself. Any pertinent argument you may have is lost, and don’t AdHominem says

happen to be mildly successful when compared to (your) peers

at least when it comes to presenting valid arguments. Just because you’ve driven so many others away doesn’t make you a winner. It does, however, make you a whiner.

Well coming from such a stable, nurturing and caring individual as you that really makes me feel.... satisfied.

Kevin says

You know, I don’t even know why we bother arguing with people like this anymore. No amount of fact, logic, or reason will change his opinions.
And lets be honest — it’s not like his opinions matter anyway.

right back atcha Kev

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Your military suggestion is also laughable. You are suggesting I join and add further support to Empirical USA

I would never make such a suggestion. You made the somewhat bizarre claim that I belong to an elite class that has access to opportunities that you don’t have, and I simply pointed out that you have the exact same opportunities that I did.

Nomograph says

Log off, join the military,

looks like you said join the military. I guess I don't know if anything you say you mean anymore. The military is just the dirty strong arm of corporate America in its thirst for profit at any cost. The US military hasn't done much in the way of righteous might since it liberated the concentration camps. And even that was not our fight.

If you are not an elitist, what percentage of Americans do you think has the "exact same opportunities" and capabilities as you? Like I said, I am not claiming that you don't deserve your success, nor that it can be achieved by a few others who also work hard. I state merely that the opportunities that you have had are NOT there for everyone, and especially that poor people are not capable of preserving what little wealth they have due to the inflationary monetary system we have. Furthermore the powerful AMA has created a monopoly on medicine that puts you in an elite class and this fact warrants your recognition. And when it comes to the military it is the poor who tend to die on the front lines while the elites like GW Bush and perhaps Nomograph who get to stand under the "mission accomplished" banner and pose with the flight-suit.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

If you are not an elitist, what percentage of Americans do you think has the “exact same opportunities” and capabilities as you?

Every US citizen has the same opportunities that I had. Not every US citizen has the same capabilities. It doesn’t surprise me that, beneath the rhetoric, you actually hate our free-market, merit-based society because you can’t compete, and you want some giant nanny-state government affirmative action program for low performers. First you want the government to handle your finances and savings for you, and now you want the government to decide who succeeds regardless of capabilities? Just how much of your life are you willing to turn over to the government? Are you afraid of freedom, AdHominem?

Actually I was hoping for a government that protects everyone equally. This means the man with $20 should be able to put his money in a bank and buy essentially the same amount of goods and services with in in 5, 10 or 20 years. Why should the man have to suffer the debasement of his currency? Government doesn't have to spend much effort or resources on this. In fact it takes great effort to debase a currency, you have to go out of your way to produce more FIAT dollars (of course in the digital age you just type a few zeros and press enter). It also requires a monopoly on money. Which is something we need to end.

The system that we have now guarantees that storage of wealth in dollars is a loosing investment, and in fact encourages mal-investment. This is to the detriment of the masses and the benefit of the elites. You are an elitist. You claim that everyone needs to be "smart" like you join the military (ie the Imperial US killing machine), buy property and game the system just like you. Everyone can't game the system, it is ponzi scheme. In an inflationary economy there have to be more losers than winners. Why? Becuase the lower class is always hurt worse than the elite upper class, they find it immensely more difficult if not impossible to make investments in "assets" that won't lose value. I don't begrudge you your status, (except for the monopoly of the AMA on medicine) nor do I think we need a Nanny state to make sure you and I and everyone else suffer the same. But what we do need is a sound monetary system so that savings is rewarded, debt is discouraged/costly, and mal-investment is not encouraged. If you think it is too much to ask that government protect a sound money system, then at least we need a government that allows competing currencies so that people can choose one that won't be debased on the free market.

Private property is the foundation of a free society. Private property includes currency. Unless we have a government that protects its currenc(ies) from debasement by the special interests and elites, the average and below average individual (the majority) will continue to lose freedom and his pursuit of happiness will be curtailed.

AdHominem says

Why should the man have to suffer the debasement of his currency?

That's the point. He doesn't have to... Buy inflation protected T-Bills instead. How hard is that?

AdHominem says

Becuase the lower class is always hurt worse than the elite upper class, they find it immensely more difficult if not impossible to make investments in “assets” that won’t lose value.

Again-that is the exact opposite of truth.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Why should the man have to suffer the debasement of his currency?

That’s the point. He doesn’t have to… Buy inflation protected T-Bills instead. How hard is that?

You are funny. Why don't we just all use TIPS as our national medium of exchange then? One act of congress could give us this stable money system.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Becuase the lower class is always hurt worse than the elite upper class, they find it immensely more difficult if not impossible to make investments in “assets” that won’t lose value.

Again-that is the exact opposite of truth.

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

AdHominem says

You are funny. Why don’t we just all use TIPS as our national medium of exchange then? One act of congress could give us this stable money system

Because TIPS aren't a currency. They are an investment. When you want to store wealth, you buy TIPS. When you want to purchase goods or services, you use currency. Do you see the distinction?

AdHominem says

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

OK--quick quiz for you Ad Hom. Which class has more wealth to store--upper or lower? And the followup-does inflation hurt people who save or people who live paycheck to paycheck more?

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

OK–quick quiz for you Ad Hom. Which class has more wealth to store–upper or lower? And the followup-does inflation hurt people who save or people who live paycheck to paycheck more?

Ok quick quiz for you TAT.
1. Who benefits most from the complicated tax code combined with an inflationary monetary policy; the guy who can afford a tax attorney and financial advisor or the guy who is trying to just save a hundred bucks a week for retirement?
2. If a guy with a million dollars loses ten percent, and a guy with 100 dollars loses ten percent, who is going to suffer the biggest loss in standard of living?

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

You are funny. Why don’t we just all use TIPS as our national medium of exchange then? One act of congress could give us this stable money system

Because TIPS aren’t a currency. They are an investment. When you want to store wealth, you buy TIPS. When you want to purchase goods or services, you use currency. Do you see the distinction?

Money isn't an investment? Are you kidding me? It is not only an investment it is one that we are essentially FORCED to make or at least accept, for all debts public and private.

It seems to me we are both arguing almost EXACTLY the same point, just that you seem to think Big Government is somehow different than Big Business. In fact the two cannot exist without one another. Big Busness needs a big government to help it out and eliminate competition. The two are inseperable unless BIG GOVERNMENT RUNS ALL Business. So we see that Socialism, and the quasi-capitalism/big governments we have in the west are really just about the SAME EXACT thing.

In a free market, credit is expensive. Meaning risk is factored in to all credit agreements. We haven't had a free market in years, in any part of the world, because credit was so cheap it cost you money NOT to borrow.

That is not a free market and you know it. The Federal Reserve and our fraudulent fractional reserve banking system create malinvestment, and socialize risk while privatizing profit (central banks around the world working together did the same thing). That is what the creators of the Creature from Jekyll Island wanted and that is what they got. You can argue till your beak falls off but unless we have sound money we will never have a free market let alone a sound economy.

Nomograph says

DO think it’s the government’s job to watch over your wealth.

Wait, no did I just say that. No actually it was you. However it may be governments job to protect its citizens from theft. Rather than being the boss crime lord.

Nomograph says

NEWSFLASH: It’s your job to acquire, protect, and grow your wealth, not the government’s.

and who will protect me from "my" government?

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, Letter 1802 to Secretary of the Treasury.

Welcome to the future Mr. Jefferson.

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

OK–quick quiz for you Ad Hom. Which class has more wealth to store–upper or lower? And the followup-does inflation hurt people who save or people who live paycheck to paycheck more?

Ok quick quiz for you TAT.

1. Who benefits most from the complicated tax code combined with an inflationary monetary policy; the guy who can afford a tax attorney and financial advisor or the guy who is trying to just save a hundred bucks a week for retirement?

2. If a guy with a million dollars loses ten percent, and a guy with 100 dollars loses ten percent, who is going to suffer the biggest loss in standard of living?

You still think the little guy benefits from inflation?

AdHominem says

Ok quick quiz for you TAT.
1. Who benefits most from the complicated tax code combined with an inflationary monetary policy; the guy who can afford a tax attorney and financial advisor or the guy who is trying to just save a hundred bucks a week for retirement?
2. If a guy with a million dollars loses ten percent, and a guy with 100 dollars loses ten percent, who is going to suffer the biggest loss in standard of living?

1. Didn't know we were discussing tax code. Where did you come up with that??
2. The million dollar guy for sure. $100K is definitely going to hurt him. I doubt that $10 is going to hurt anyone.

AdHominem says

Money isn’t an investment? Are you kidding me? It is not only an investment it is one that we are essentially FORCED to make or at least accept, for all debts public and private.

No--not kidding. Money is a currency. We are forced to accept it for debts, but we aren't FORCED to hold it. Most people keep some of it to pay the bills, and then invest the rest of it in whatever instrument they believe will give them the greatest return. If you believe inflation will erode the value of your dollars--then I recommend investing in an inflation hedge. You could invest in China or Europe, buy gold, buy real estate, etc... I just wouldn't hold a bunch of dollars, if I were you and believed what you believed.

There is fraud and waste in both the private sector and in government, but there is much more fraud and waste in government for the simple reason that that government workers lack the incentives to avoid wasteful decisions. If the Census bureau decides to spend/waste money on a Superbowl ad as they did last Sunday, there are no repurcussions, whereas in private industry, overspending on advertisements that don't provide a return means losing one's job, or forfeiting a bonus. As an example, many cities hire and pay workers to go to restaurants in order to harass the owners to display "our wines have sulfates" signs. Is that a good use of city resources? Of course not, yet those who make such decisions in government almost never pay a price, and in many cases they are rewarded with larger bureaucracies and more $$. Bad private sector decisions typically have negative consequences that govt. workers would not have to face. Hence, more wasteful, crappy decisions are made by government. Despite the poor economy, there is a federal jobs boom in DC, because they're spending other people's money.

Even worse, government legislates a different set of rules for themselves. Accounting rules followed by govt. would land a private sector company in jail for accounting fraud. Off-budget items such as Fannie/Freddie losses are commonplace throughout govt.

World improver's and do-gooders will always be with us. They spend more than they have, push and boss other people around and generally make the world a worse place to live. Paper money is a handy tool for world improver's. They use it like politicians use civil service jobs and generals use heavy bombers - to get what they want. Paper money is irresistible to morally corrupt politicians. It doesn't take much to increase the money supply by a factor of 10, or even 100 - simply add zero's. But adding zero's does not add value.

No paper currency has ever held its value. Politicians and central bankers (THE FED) want money they can debase. Gold on the other hand doesn't cooperate. Gold turns its back on world improver's, empire builders and do-gooders. Thats why morally corrupt people like paper "money" and hate gold or gold backed real money.

Recommended Reading: Empire of Debt, Bill Bonner. Also look up: Inflation, the effects of. And one more thing to drive "progressives" nuts...The Constitution.

It's comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox--everything looks like a nail to him....

And TAt, my "friend", you remind me of one who doesn't learn from other's mistakes, let alone your own. Apparently you don't learn at all, nor bother to READ. You have no tolerance for sound money, think inflation is fine, are comfortable with the concept of bossing others around. You hate freedom, private property rights and the like. Your thoughts are always "right" and others (those with common sense and the ability or read) are always "wrong" haha, you make me laugh. Life must be beautiful in "LaLa land". Blah, blah blah.

My next post will be about the evils of THE FED, the fraud and theft that they create and how the free market is deceived by central planning. Wait, why not post all your supportive points of THE FED now. That way I can discredit all your phony comments in advance. Go ahead, list all your supportive comments and talking points about THE FED. I can't wait. Abe.

Abe--

How perceptive you are. You've got me pegged--a freedom hating, inflation loving, communistic tyrant.

But, I wouldn't want to spoil your Fed is evil post. So please enlighten us again--I won't stand in your way...

No...I asked first.

tatupu70 says

It’s comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox–everything looks like a nail to him….

Ad Hominem

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says
It’s comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox–everything looks like a nail to him….
Ad Hominem

Nice try--but it's not ad hominem at all. I was simply stating that Abe doesn't really argue the point at hand, but instead posts the same critique of fiat currency every time.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

It’s comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox–everything looks like a nail to him….

Ad Hominem

Nice try–but it’s not ad hominem at all. I was simply stating that Abe doesn’t really argue the point at hand, but instead posts the same critique of fiat currency every time.

I heard a story of a preacher who preached the same sermon every Sunday. Eventually someone complained to him about it. He said, when you get the first message I will give you another.

Abe, I'd love to hear anyone's case for the FED too. How is inflation good again? How is privatized profit and socialized risk in our best interest?

NomogrAss the elitist says

Does everything always have to be explained to you?

Be patient with me, I am not as elite as you. Sorry to waste your high intellect Dr. NomogrAss.

Did you want to make your case for the FED?

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Dr. NomogrAss

AdHominem. Plus, Homograph would have been funnier.

perhaps, but then people would use Ad Hominem and call be a gay basher or something.

Honest Abe says

No paper currency has ever held its value. Politicians and central bankers (THE FED) want money they can debase. Gold on the other hand doesn’t cooperate. Gold turns its back on world improver’s, empire builders and do-gooders. Thats why morally corrupt people like paper “money” and hate gold or gold backed real money.

I basically agree with you...so, please don't take this in the wrong way. I am not trying to attack you. Just trying to give you some tips as to how you might better get your points across to others.

Your opinion is phrased in such a black/white type of way, as to generate suspicion of the level of thought behind the comment. That is why your posts are attracting criticism from Nomo and Tat. They aren't attacking your idea, as much as the perceived lack of a logical process.

It is important to note that Kings and governments have always been corrupt, and did find ways to debase gold coins. The most widespread way was via "clipping." There are also stories of governments minting smaller coins, and passing them off as identical to the previous version. Or they would use less pure gold, etc.

Also, if you read about the tulip mania, the dutch had the most healthy and trusted banking system at the time. They were a well regulated, 100% gold standard system. This attracted capital (gold) from around the world, even as far away as Japan. Clearly, a rich Japanese man in the 1600's was not going to be using his gold stash held in Amsterdam very often. It was around this time that the bankers started to figure out they could loan out gold they didn't have, typically to the government that needed to pay operating costs. Fractional reserve banking was born. So, between the new fractional reserve banking system, combined with the massive inflow of gold, the money suppy in 17th century dutch economy exploded, resulting in the tulip bubble.

The irony is that this bubble happened as a consequence of having the most well regulated, trusted, stable banking system in the world.

Also, frankly, HOW IN THE WORLD COULD WE GO BACK TO A GOLD STANDARD TODAY? Everything in our day to day economic lives is a function of a fiat fractional reserve system. Going back to a gold standard, would be like removing a brain tumor. If done haphazardly, the patient could easily die on us completely. I am a huge Ron Paul supporter, and a libertarian to boot. Still, a 100% backed gold standard is almost impossible to fathom in our modern era.

Let's do this thought experiment: If you could get rid of the FED tomorrow, how would you do it? Which organization would regulate the base money supply? Would you go to a gold standard tomorrow as well? What happens when the unemployment rate goes to 30% in 3 months due to the resulting deflationary spiral? How do you convince starving, pitchfork weilding types that they need to take their economic medicine so that things will be better one day?

None of this is by any means a black and white situation.

NomogrAss says

AdHominem says

then people would use Ad Hominem and call be a gay

I don’t care if you are gay. Your personal lifestyle choices are yours and yours alone.

are you coming on to me?

Nomograph says

CBOEtrader says

Also, frankly, HOW IN THE WORLD COULD WE GO BACK TO A GOLD STANDARD TODAY? Everything in our day to day economic lives is a function of a fiat fractional reserve system. Going back to a gold standard, would be like removing a brain tumor. If done haphazardly, the patient could easily die on us completely. I am a huge Ron Paul supporter, and a libertarian to boot. Still, a 100% backed gold standard is almost impossible to fathom in our modern era.

Exactly. I haven’t heard anyone on this site argue against the gold standard. It’s just a waste of time debating because the only way we could ever return to it is via complete monetary destruction, which may or may not happen. Come talk to me then.

I don't think we should move to a gold standard. We should however remove legal tender laws and allow people to refuse to use Federal Reserve notes. If someone wants to demand that they be paid in gold, silver or Doll Hairs, they should have the freedom to do so. Allowing competing currencies is the best way to determine whether or not the dollar is sound. We might even find that people prefer dollars to gold and silver coins.

But more importantly we need to move toward a truly stable money supply. Credit rates need to be set by market forces not a central bank in cahoots with the elites and shrouded in secrecy. And the volume of money cannot be expanded based on decree from Bernanke, it must be based on some standard, whether it be gold reserves, or amount of people involved in gainful employment. Money has to represent a unit of labor, not just a number on a balance sheet.

OK.

I will name some corporations that are according to you "effectively unregulated."

Phillip Morris-
GM-
McDonalds-
Marriot-
AT&T-
Microsoft-

I would like you to start by explaining how these specific corporations are "unregulated."

Second I would like to know how taxes are lower now than in 1945 (including gasoline, unemployment, FICA, Medicare, income, etc..). You are implying that I get more purchasing power for my labor today than my great grandfather did. I find this very hard to believe. Can I buy as many beers, on an hours work as great grand dad? (Yes I know that taxes and purchasing power are two different things. But to argue that taxes are lower now is meaningless if my hours worth of work won't buy what his hours worth of work will buy. That is the real question isn't it?)

Third I would like to know how you know the people who hate corruption don't understand corruption?

Fourth: I would like to know why you claim corruption starts with money?

Fifth, What do you mean by the statement "People who hate corruption don’t understand that corruption STARTS with money, and making the aristocracy 1000% richer over the last 30 years is the CAUSE of corruption."

Finally I wonder if you can make your answer based on evidence and refrain from the sweeping generalizations and insults that are the core of your personality?

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Sorry, but I disagree. Only an elitist would attack an idea based on a perceived lack of logical process. So that is why Nomo attacks.

Only a victim would feel attacked because his ideas were examined under the light of logic. Unlike yourself, I don’t buy into something just because it sounds neat-o.
If you are unable to provide a logical and rational basis for your ideas, why in the world would you ever expect such ideas to be taken seriously? (HINT: They won’t be).

Burn.

Nomograss.

Nomograph says

Unlike yourself, I don’t buy into something just because it sounds neat-o.

for example, which idea do you claim I buy just because it sounds neato?