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Slightly OT(but slightly not)...Why are people so dumb?
invite response
2011 Jun 11, 4:34am 21,763 views 174 comments
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tatupu70
2011 Jun 14, 6:26am
Not to interject into the chain because this argument isn’t particularly interesting, but this is absolutely not true. If you break a lease, the landlord has a duty to mitigate damages. The contractual remedies are different from debt.
Sure. He can say he tried to rent it but was unsuccessful. You're on the hook.
Yes, it's different. That's why I said it's "closer", not "exactly the same"
tatupu70
2011 Jun 14, 6:31am
You’ve gone from defending his remark in its original and literal context (conflating debt with cost) to accusing others of taking it out of context.
My lord. Nobody conflated debt with cost. Do you really not understand the concept of comparing one thing with another? Or saying something is similar to something else? If I said your love is like a rose, would you go on a rant telling me how your love is MOST DEFINITELY NOT A ROSE?
We get it. It was a thought exercise to get everyone who says housing debt is bad to realize that housing cost exists whether you own or rent.
OK--I agree though. No more posts on this topic.
He can say he tried to rent it but was unsuccessful. You’re on the hook.
Not in the same way. If you can show (even through printing out listings on Craigslist) that other places are going for the same price, your landlord can't lie about trying to rent it. The burden is typically higher than you're making out to be, as the law requires the landlord mitigate damages.
klarek
2011 Jun 14, 7:26am
My lord. Nobody conflated debt with cost.
If you are incapable of relenting with the bullshit, this will never end. Ahem:
If you think you are debt free as a renter because you don’t have a 30 year mortgage than you are lying to yourself
Suboink was saying in no ambiguous terms that renters have debt.
because as long as you have to rent…you have the debt of paying rent.
That was Suboink conflating debt with cost. This has been pointed out a dozen times already.
If you sign a 1 or 2 year lease, it’s pretty analagous to a 1 or 2 year loan. You’ve agreed to pay x amount over the course of the agreement in monthly payments. The owner has financed you.
That was you agreeing with Suboink and reiterating the point that cost = debt.
Because you would rather jump in to defend his stupid remark rather than pausing to consider that a lease or service agreement is NOT a loan, you cannot now claim that neither he nor you were conflating debt and cost. I know that you know this, and you could easily have corrected yourself in the many subsequent posts, but instead decided that it would be better to accuse others of a lack of comprehension.
tatupu70
2011 Jun 14, 7:39am
OK--One last one. I really am done after this one:
If you sign a 1 or 2 year lease, it’s pretty analagous to a 1 or 2 year loan. You’ve agreed to pay x amount over the course of the agreement in monthly payments. The owner has financed you.
That was you agreeing with Suboink and reiterating the point that cost = debt.
For the (really) last time. There is a different between saying x is analagous to y and saying x=y. There is a difference between saying x is like y and x=y. There is a difference between saying x resembles y and x=y.
Please stop misrepresenting mine and others' posts.
hi-tops and hi-heels are different, but they are still both forms of a shoe.
a loan to buy a house is financing that takes the form of a liability on one's balance sheet whether you be an individual, corporation, etc.
a lease is a form of financing that takes the form of a liability on one's balance sheet whether you be and individual, corporation, etc.
to determine the present value one will deduct from their assets, simply take the remaining liability and discount it at the appropriate rate- whether it be a loan, lease, or any other type of financing.
for anyone to argue or even insinuate they are different due to how each liability is enforced is being intellectually dishonest at best, or displaying a clear lack of understanding of financial instruments at worst.
understand how each form of financing works and, based on the relative p.v. of your other investment opportunities, choose the one that MAKES THE MOST SENSE FOR YOU.
but, i guess if everyone clearly understood financial instruments, this board wouldn't exist...
There is a different between saying x is analagous to y and saying x=y.
To Klarek x is analogous to y is the same as x = y - he will never get it and loves to ride around the terminology more than actually getting the message of what somebody is saying.
Sorry, had to chime in one more time...sitting on a plane and very bored...
but, i guess if everyone clearly understood financial instruments, this board wouldn’t exist…
You know, if you're going to be that snarky, you better get your wisecracking right.
a loan to buy a house is financing that takes the form of a liability on one’s balance sheet whether you be an individual, corporation, etc.
a lease is a form of financing that takes the form of a liability on one’s balance sheet whether you be and individual, corporation, etc.
Buying a house would be a capital expenditure, so it shows up as an asset on your balance sheet with the balance due on the loan as a liability.
A lease could either be an operating lease or a capital lease. The typical residential lease is an operating lease, so it would not go on the balance sheet as an asset and a liability -- rather, you treat it as an expense. Commercial leases could be either an operating lease or a capital lease, but residential leases will almost never be a capital lease. When you have a capital lease, you typically recognize depreciation, but you don't for an operating lease.
In addition, what is done from an accounting standpoint may not account for the substance of the transaction, the risks, and any applicable law. As I mentioned, the contractual remedies for each arrangement are quite different, and the risk profile is quite different.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Jun 14, 11:51am
In the past six months, I’ve been to 4 NBA games, a NHL game, and a couple Dodger games. I tried to get 100 or field level tickets most times. Also went to a few concerts…Tim McGraw, John Mellencamp, etc. And eating out, and other entertainment. And a whole lot of other stuff. Its why I live where I live(downtown LA).
In the past six months, I've been to six high school swim meets, two high school waterpolo matches, a high school musical and two high school concert band performances.
Oh yeah, the SF Giants, the Curran Theater, and last summer a UB40 concert, and dropped off my partner at Pier 41 (a hr drive from home) for a cruise to the Pacific Northwest with a relative. Four symphonies by three different companies, including the one in Oakland where the guest artist was Carlos Santana. Saw with my own eyes (behind glass) original copy of the Magna Carta, on loan last month from its permanent home in Britain.
As the years have gone by, the memories of the kinds of stuff in the first set of stuff are way more precious, the times way more good, than the good times in the second list.
That is the point. A good place for everyday life beats the hell out of a Cool and Hip Place. The Cool and Hip place is cool and it is hip, but that's about it.
ha. look at the big brain on brad (pulp fiction, anyone?). anyway, i can see how an argument like this could drag on into infinity. it reminds me of every conversation i've had with the many libertarians i once worked with:
me --the concept sounds absolutely fantastic.
me --now, let's apply to the real world.
me --oh, doesn't work so well.
me --huh? and that's still not enough for you to change your opinion??
corntrollio, your information is absolutely, 100% correct. what's funny is, when applied to the real world, you basically bolstered my and quite a few other people's argument- debt and leases ARE TREATED THE SAME.
yes, a house and the loan would go on both side of the balance sheet; so would the "operating lease" that a GOOD ANALYST LIKE YOURSELF would put on the b.s. when analyzing the credit worthiness of the person or entity.
corntrollio, you know better than anyone on this board that a company may have their lease off the b.s. to improve their risk profile. so, you being the fly-ass analyst that you are would do the wise thing and TREAT IT JUST LIKE THE CAPITAL LEASE by putting it on!
Thanks for making my argument that they should be treated the same.
now, semantics. yes, you're right in saying that their is a different amount of risk one would absorb when taking on different type of liabilities - for large companies with complex debt structures!
how many regular joe's do you know sit at home and say, "geez honey, i know we owe your brother $50 bucks and we owe visa $75, but those are unsecured forms of debt. not that big of a deal. now, a mortgage is an entirely different animal. we need to really put a lot more thought into whether we take on that form of liability".
and if you say more than one, you're being disingenuous.
the bottom line is, most people make decisions based on the entire debt profile rather than separating secured vs unsecured vs rent vs etc. which, for an individual, is the appropriate way to look at this subject because a default on any of their "liabilities" will have a significant impact on their ability to continue to have access to reasonable lines of credit, INCLUDING A LEASE at some point in the future!
regular joe's need to focus on their assets vs liabilities (including moving the off b.s. op. lease back on) and cash flow and less on how the specific contracts may get resolved. the bottom line is, breaching one of the contracts will eventually have the same effect- an eff'd up credit report. and isn't that what drives most regular people's decisions in regard to which liabilities they are and aren't going to pay?
it reminds me of every conversation i’ve had with the many libertarians i once worked with:
Umm, yeah, libertarianism isn't practical, do you want a cookie?
Thanks for making my argument that they should be treated the same.
now, semantics. yes, you’re right in saying that their is a different amount of risk one would absorb when taking on different type of liabilities - for large companies with complex debt structures!
I'm not sure what the "analyst" nonsense is about. I'm not sure why this is about semantics either. I gave the summation at the bottom that had nothing to do with accounting principles, which you completely got wrong, and everything to do with substance, which is what ultimately matters.
how many regular joe’s do you know sit at home and say, “geez honey, i know we owe your brother $50 bucks and we owe visa $75, but those are unsecured forms of debt. not that big of a deal. now, a mortgage is an entirely different animal. we need to really put a lot more thought into whether we take on that form of liabilityâ€.
Are you actually saying that people don't see different forms of debt, contracts, and payment differently? If you are, then that's a pretty ridiculous and naive statement. People absolutely see their mortgages as different from credit card and different from owing their brother money. The statistics and studies agree with me. Just look at people's defaulting behavior. Look at why certain creditors give you an interest credit for automatic payments, as is common for student loan servicers. People absolutely treat different things differently.
breaching one of the contracts will eventually have the same effect- an eff’d up credit report. and isn’t that what drives most regular people’s decisions in regard to which liabilities they are and aren’t going to pay?
People who only focus on their credit report are taking a pretty narrow and naive focus on finance. In addition, what you're saying is false. I have broken a lease before with no consequence to my credit report and no lawsuit or any other legal or financial problem, but I've never paid a credit card late.
In any case, no need to get all defensive because you don't understand accounting. It's fine. As you said, plenty of people don't understand finance.
I guess Klarek sleeps better reminding himself that he is debt free. And when he can’t pay his rent and gets evicted from his rental house he can tell the landlord that he is debt free. I believe he still would have to move out because the landlord wants a check regardless.
And when suboink can't pay his mortgage he can live for free for several years, take a temporary hit on his credit, and be...(drum roll, please)... DEBT FREE!!! In the words of Yakoff Smirnoff..."What a country!!!"
Oh relax suboink (and everyone else for that matter), I just thought I might interject this funny (albeit sad, but true) comment in the middle of this argument that went on for far too long.
Are we ready to conclude? Rent=debt or no?
Why don't you conclude it for us? Then we can all get on with our lives.
bubblesitter
2011 Jun 14, 2:58pm
Houseless but not homeless says
Are we ready to conclude? Rent=debt or no?
Why don’t you conclude it for us? Then we can all get on with our lives.
Yeah, All the arguments on this thread are going nowhere. Simple fact is RENT != DEBT cuz you don't borrow upfront to pay it back. Oh well!
AND THERE WE HAVE IT!!!!
GAME! SET! MAAAAAAATCH!!!!!!!!!!
Great game everyone! Beers are on me!
to corntrollio:
haha! dude, when i'm sitting on the toilet, i forget more about finance than you've ever known. but that's neither here nor there. i'll respond to your points and then let you have the last word, should you choose. after that, we can respectfully agree to disagree and let the people extract what value may exist in this thread.
1) Umm, yeah, libertarianism isn't practical, do you want a cookie?
A) yes, i do want a cookie but would prefer a bottle of your finest champagne in return for educating you. this conversation requires i get drunk.
2) I'm not sure what the "analyst" non-sense is about. I'm not sure why this is about semantics either. I gave the summation at the bottom that had nothing to do with accounting principles, which you completely got wrong. bjones says
A) why did i bring up the "analyst". my error was in giving you credit for being far more intelligent than you actually are. since it was you who introduced the concept of capital leases vs. operating, i assumed you actually understood how they are used. instead, you've turned out to be more like that pompous retard in Goodwill Hunting who could quote (in your case, copy and past) text-book sound information, but had no understanding as to how to apply it in a practical fashion. if you know about leases, you should know how one (an analyst) would adjust for them when valuing an opportunity or entity. this is what i was trying to say:
you talking crap: i'm smart enough to copy and paste, errrr, know that residential leases are different from loans. an example would be the treatment of loans and commercial leases vs operating leases. here is webster's definition, errrr, some of my commentary on how this works.
me owning you: uh, actually, any analyst worth their weight in dog shi!t knows that BOTH are treated in the same fashion and, if the company doesn't, it's the job of the analyst to rectify this egregious error on their b.s too make sure they are treated equally.
you not knowing what to say: uh, why are you bringing up analyst
me owning you: are you female and hot? because if not, i'm wasting my time.
3) Are you actually saying that people don't see different forms of payment differently? If you aren't, then that's a pretty ridiculous and naive statement. People absolutely see their mortgages as different from credit card and different from owing their brother money. The statistics and studies agree with me. Just look at people's defaulting behavior. bjones says
A) Yes, you are right! once again, we agree. my point, though, is most people (that means 51+ out of every 100 asked) look at these decisions based on the impact they will have on their credit report and not whether the debt is secured or unsecured! sh!t, most people don't know what secured vs unsecured means!
4) People who only focus on their credit report are taking a pretty narrow and naive focus on finance. In addition, what you're saying is false. I have broken a lease before with no consequence to my credit report and no lawsuit or any other legal or financial problem, but I've never paid a credit card late. In any case, no need to get all defensive because you don't understand accounting. It's fine. As you said, plenty of people don't understand finance.
A) narrow focus?? not really. for most people (see above for def of "most" people), their entire existence is dictated by their ability to obtain credit. the neighborhood in which they may live, the schools their kids may attend, the car they may drive, the vacations they make take, etc... yes, for regular joe's, their credit score is their life-blood to a better existence. maybe your circumstances are different. can't say. but what i do know is one's focus on their credit score is a hell of a lot wider than you may think.
ha! no wonder we disagree. you should write a book entitled, "deadbeats who break their leases and get away with it."
but, let me reference one of the 21st century's greatest philosophers. like chris rock once said, "you can raise a kid by yourself, but that doesn't mean it's a m.f. good idea."
great, you broke your lease with no repercussions. guess what- i can name a few people who've stopped paying their mortgage a really really long time ago and they're still living in the residence and doing alright. you're a deadbeat and they're deadbeats and you both haven't suffered. great. doesn't make it a good idea to walk away from a liability, regardless of it's classification.
in fact, you have to be a complete jack-a$$ to even insinuate that it's ok to do so. but, maybe that's just me and my self-righteous belief in merit, accountability and treating others with the respect and dignity i'd would expect. not everyone cares about things such as those....
haha! dude, when i’m sitting on the toilet
Yeah, well you sure do a lot of talking out of your ass, so it makes sense that you'd talk about your toilet habits.
It's funny, I gave plenty of practical considerations, and you gave plenty of theoretical considerations that don't pan out in practice, and yet you're accusing me of the Good Will Hunting textbook crap.
You tried to school people in accounting and failed, and yet you keep talking. The analyst crap is just a smokescreen for the initial failing. Yes, everyone who knows finance knows about how you can take things off-balance sheet, but accounting is accounting and something completely different.
great, you broke your lease with no repercussions. guess what- i can name a few people who’ve stopped paying their mortgage a really really long time ago and they’re still living in the residence and doing alright. you’re a deadbeat and they’re deadbeats and you both haven’t suffered. great. doesn’t make it a good idea to walk away from a liability, regardless of it’s classification.
Perhaps, but I was prepared to deal with the contractual liability from breaking my lease. The landlord knew that it wasn't worth pursuing, and I had claims against the landlord for inhabitability issues, so he knew that he could face something, so we both walked away. Knowing when to litigate and when to exercise your contractual rights and how to interpret and use contractual remedies to your advantage is a good thing.
touche. you've shown to have a very sound understanding of the topics you've beached.
we def have some fundamental disagreements. however, i think we agree on more than we disagree.
our disagreements are akin to arguing over the best slice of pizza- it makes the other person talk about the 2nd greatest slice like its dog food.
let's move on to something else. how about we talk about investment opportunities (ex-physical real estate) that can make everyone some money.
how about we talk about investment opportunities (ex-physical real estate) that can make everyone some money.
Wouldn't that be a topic for another thread? Please link me. You have piqued my curiosity.
we def have some fundamental disagreements. however, i think we agree on more than we disagree.
Most likely that's true, although I'm still waiting for some libertarian-type to complain about people with guns taking their money. You seem pretty knowledgeable yourself.
let’s move on to something else. how about we talk about investment opportunities (ex-physical real estate) that can make everyone some money.
Amen. I don't read the investing forum here that much because it seems a little quiet. Maybe I should post my long post about variable universal life insurance there.
our disagreements are akin to arguing over the best slice of pizza- it makes the other person talk about the 2nd greatest slice like its dog food.
I prefer the "hole in the wall" joints back in the Bronx myself....but that's just me. Again, a topic for another thread.
"Maybe I should post my long post about variable universal life insurance there."
alright. now we're making progress. i could def write some commentary in support of that effort.
in fact, i saw you comment on the thread about the "150k inc looking for inv. ideas" thread.
that guy would be perfect for vul, should he be in the market for ins.
HOUSELESS BUT NOT HOMELESS:
i'm game to start a thread and begin exchanging ideas- IF people are serious and can bring something to the table.
I prefer the “hole in the wall†joints back in the Bronx myself….but that’s just me. Again, a topic for another thread.
ha. can't speak for the bronx but can def recommend a few places in the city, should you be here in the late-night hours.
i’m game to start a thread and begin exchanging ideas- IF people are serious and can bring something to the table.
I've got nothing to bring to the table except my ears (or eyes, depending how you "look" at it.)
Your call.
i’m game to start a thread and begin exchanging ideas- IF people are serious and can bring something to the table.
I'm game.
Waste not want not! Eat the dead and try not to envy them.
This, btw, is the only way to eat a 'complete' protein from one food source. Just one of the things I learned reading 'The China Study.'
his, btw, is the only way to eat a ‘complete’ protein from one food source.
Soylent Green is made of used house salesmen!
That is the point. A good place for everyday life beats the hell out of a Cool and Hip Place. The Cool and Hip place is cool and it is hip, but that’s about it.
Yeah, but doesn't seeing the Magna Carta set a helpful context for having the experiences in your first list? I would say some experiences you're calling "Cool and Hip" are being undersold, because they do go beyond just hipness and help inform the thoughts you have about family.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Jun 15, 1:47pm
doesn’t seeing the Magna Carta set a helpful context for having the experiences in your first list?
Yes it does, and so does the reality of it that I didn't have to see the thing to appreciate it.
Kind of like other important documents, the Real Magna Carta, the one that matters, is not the animal hide it was written on; the Real Magna Carta is the ideas expressed on it.
But it's really Cool and Hip to boast and flaunt that it came to be displayed in our region and not some place in flyover land.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Jun 15, 1:52pm
People who only focus on their credit report are taking a pretty narrow and naive focus on finance
No kidding!
The Over The Top obsession with credit scores is just an incessant attempt to Gin Us Up to keep borrowing and paying them interest.
God forbid we go on borrowing strike, it'll force down the interest payments they get as the compete with each other to lend to us.
The rentiers need us to borrow a whole lot more than we need to do the borrowing.
bubblesitter
2011 Jun 16, 4:48am
The Over The Top obsession with credit scores
Biggest scam on this planet, run by the US banks. Screw it, CASH ONLY!
FortWayne
2011 Jun 16, 7:01am
The Over The Top obsession with credit scores
Biggest scam on this planet, run by the US banks. Screw it, CASH ONLY!
much, much agreed. So despicable and disgusting how people like sheep line up to be good consumers to bow down before the banks and their credit score system.
Oh how things have changed. We have an entire generation of sheep. What happened to good old America where you could tell the bank to shove it and they would come chasing after you begging you to take their money because we were all allergic to debt. Today it's the other way around, there is even a tollbooth between houses and people. You want to buy a house, pay your toll to the bank first.
There are area’s in CA where you can buy a newly build 3000sqft home for $175k. That’s more than half of what it would actually cost to build (permits+labor+material)…its common sense that those area’s won’t go much further. They may stay at these levels but sinking significantly lower? How do you reason your claims?
LOL, very simple.
These houses should never be built. People do not need to live in these areas. These houses have no value at all but may be the price of firewood you can make from them minus what you will pay to illegal mexicans to cut and chop the wood.
What I mean to say is, I want to die with nothing in my pockets after having a great life enjoying the limited time afforded me. So many on these forums write about how much they have in the bank or in investments. They wake up looking at the balances and pinch every penny. I rent a small apartment, drive a beater, and save 1000 bucks for any emergency. I blow all the rest enjoying myself and on others. By the way I make a six figure salary and have zip in 401k or stocks or banks. They are all setup to take from us.
How old are you? At what age you want to die with nothing in your pockets?
43. And I have been all over the world. I started in the marine corps at 17 fought in the gulf war. Got out in 1991 and worked odd jobs. Traveled some more, went to university when I turned 30, now I am a IT director fOr the Feds. I do not have cable tv or and debts what so ever. I rent and when most people spend money on stuff or feed it to the stock market in 401k's that the guberment will take later on, I enjoy my money today. I own a iPhone a beater car and got all my furniture on craigslist fOr free. I bring my lunch to work and live I. Jeans an tee shirts. I also make a six figure income with a pension. So life is very good. People even if you dO not make a lot of money if you realize that life is short and enjoy it now then you win.
What I mean to say is, I want to die with nothing in my pockets after having a great life enjoying the limited time afforded me. So many on these forums write about how much they have in the bank or in investments. They wake up looking at the balances and pinch every penny. I rent a small apartment, drive a beater, and save 1000 bucks for any emergency. I blow all the rest enjoying myself and on others. By the way I make a six figure salary and have zip in 401k or stocks or banks. They are all setup to take from us.
What the hell do you spend your money on? Prostitues and blow? haha.
Actually yes, I travel all over the world and have a great time. I enjoy my money and think retirement is a bullshit idea. Also I have no credit as it is a fucking scam.
It sure is. I used to have a high fico score which only put me into debt. I learned this game very young and now no credit or debt. Just take me paycheck and travel and go out a lot. Retirement is a scam as well. After a year or so retired I would be so fucking bored. I am at the beach typing this.
But it’s really Cool and Hip to boast and flaunt that it came to be displayed in our region and not some place in flyover land.
Oh, I understand better. Thanks. You were addressing the exclusivity of the availability as the hipness part.
I agree with your thoughts about getting the concepts without having to see the actual place they were written down, but I also know that my brain sometimes doesn't get these concepts until they're staring me right in the face. Sometimes the abstraction of words obscures a deeper meaning and a connection with the writer.
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I am not talking about IQ or intelligence level.
I'm talking about uncaring and unthinking. The people who walk or drive around in a daze....they have the intellectual capacity, but choose not to use it.
The people who buy houses in CA at the moment.
This is actually sort of a serious question. And for it I go back to my grandparents. Immigrated here from Germany in the early 1920's. Both their parents had fought in WWI for the Germans, and they came here because Germany was @^%$^ up. Seriously, my grandfather was starving to death in Berlin. Came here, learned english real quick, finished school up through 8th grade and thats it. Went to work. No advanced education. Not even a serious worker. My grandfather played semi pro baseball and was drafted by the Yankees, but broke his leg on the last game before reporting to the Yankees minor league team. My grandmothers life was unremarkable as well. I'm not even sure when they met.
But they did, saved, went to work really hard jobs during the depression, saved more, bought a house. In 1941 at age 37, my grandfather, with baby on the way, was drafted into WWII. He was a medic under Gen. Stillwell in southeast asia, assigned to assist a Chinese Army unit. At some point along the way, things were a real bloodbath there. I only know that from history, he would never talk about it except to complain about marching over the Burma road a couple times, and saying that they had to stand watch at night more due to the tigers than the japanese.
When he got back, they stayed in the same 2 bed/1ba house, even with a kid. He got a job at a nearby tire factory. They were happy and even though they never had a TON of money to spend, they enjoyed life pretty well. honestly, California seems to have been almost a magical place in the 50's. The picture perfect land of milk and honey.
After years at the tire factory, he became very involved with the union, eventually retiring and going to work for the union full time. At some point in the early 70's, he felt the union was pushing pay too much. He warned that the tire company would move if the union kept trying to negotiate higher salaries. He retired in 1975 in part because of the unions insistence on negotiating higher salaries. The tire factory closed in 1979, and I can't remember if they moved to another state, or overseas, but nearly all their production is now overseas. The location is now the Citadel shopping center in Commerce.
So he retired at 65, enjoyed the last 10 years of his life retired. Never spent a lot...def did not buy stuff he did not need. He did collect stamps, coins, and model trains. He started buying me baseball cards in 1979 when he would pick me up from school once a week. We would go and get an ice cream at Thrifty's and a $0.15 pack of Topps baseball cards. He drove the same car for 10 years before replacing it, took a vacation once a year, spent when it was justified, was frugal most of the rest of the time.
My grandmother was a clerk with the county part time for 30 years.
Despite no real education, they managed all this(with six figures in the bank as well). They used what was known as "common sense". Things they could not figure out for themselves...they took the advice of someone who was brighter. They did things the "tried and true" way. And they never needed, wanted, or pursued extravagance, even when they had actually worked hard and earned it. A night out once a week was an ice cream cone and movie in a more upscale area like Whittier or Downey. Vacation was a tent in Yosemite. A car was a means to transport them somewhere. Pleasure was a glass of fresh squeezed orange juice on the backyard patio.
So whats the point of all this? It's to question how people currently live their lives. Still after all the economic problems of the past 6-7 years, people still INSIST entitlement to material goods. People still stretch to buy the most house they can possibly get a loan for. And people still run around without any regard for common sense.
And so onto my question...Where is the disconnect? How did we go from immigrants who could not speak the language comming here and building a hard scrabble life into the quintissential American Dream....to what we have now days. People who are seemingly incapable of exercising common sense. People who spend nonsensical high 6 and low seven figure amounts on homes and land that in no way shape or form will ultimately sustain a value that high. People who make the largest(by far) purchase of their life on whimsy and emotion USING SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY(EFF U SUZANNE).