patrick.net

I'm unaware of ANY human enterprise in which their isn't a hierarchy of job assignments.

The FNG always gets the shit jobs.

Wake me when the general is crawling through the muck alongside the privates, or the senior salesman is cleaning the toilets and delivering memos. Suggest otherwise and you'll be some kind of SOCIALIST demanding everyone work their day in the community fields.

Reality says

hmm, what's that fantasy fairy tale about wanting to "give back"

hmmm, another a.h.... It's just an expression. It could mean someone who feels that the time they spent in school helped them to be who they are.

But it could also be someone who is fortunate in any number of ways independent of school, and knows it, and has learned that "giving" and "helping others" etc. can be a more rewarding (even from an enlightened selfish standpoint ), more meaningful way to spend the 50,000 plus hours of their work life, than just grinding away at making money.

I'm sure that many that go in to health care, science, social work, even law (sometimes), or criminal justice, setting up a website like this one, vetrinary science, or even politics (sometimes) and many other fields are at least partly motivated by such thinking.

marcus says

In a nutshell, "it's all the teachers fault."
So califonia is 47th in spending for education. All my classes will have over 40 students per class this coming year. Some may be over 50.
What was your question again ?

You for got UNION when you stated it's all the teacher's fault. Most teachers are good teachers. But the union will not let bad teachers get fired. This is obvious if you look at union run public schools. And ask any principal if he can avoid the "lemon dance" with these bad teachers?

If the teacher's union would have allowed all teachers to take across the board pay and benefit cuts then we would not have 40+ students per class coming up this year.

The question always has been this marcus: What value does public sector unions bring to our State and local communities if any? How does raising taxes all the time to meet the demands of public sector unions benefit society?

There is always a point where taxes become too much of a burden to our society. California voters have said now is that time. Make due with what you have to spend. The unions say ok lets see how bad we can make our public schools to teach Californians a lesson of who really controls our schools. In the end, its the students in CA that lose with 40:1 because of selfish union demands. And students have been on the losing end of education for the last 30 years at least. How does that benefit our society? It doesn't; why is that so hard to see marcus?

cdw7503 says

But the union will not let bad teachers get fired.

That's not true. The big thing these days is "evaluation." You don't think that unions change and can respond to criticism (even from within) over their shortcomings ?

Nothing is written in stone, one teachers union is different from the next, and they are all adapting to pressures, from within and from society in general.

cdw7503 says

If the teacher's union would have allowed all teachers to take across the board pay and benefit cuts then we would not have 40+ students per class coming up this year.

That's more made up bs. We are in our third year of furlough days.

cdw7503 says

The unions say ok lets see how bad we can make our public schools to teach Californians a lesson of who really controls our schools.

You're obviously still learning (NOT !!)

cdw7503 says

And students have been on the losing end of education for the last 30 years at least. How does that benefit our society?

From a Dianne Ravitch critique of "waiting for Superman:"

There was a time—which now seems distant—when most people assumed that students’ performance in school was largely determined by their own efforts and by the circumstances and support of their family, not by their teachers. There were good teachers and mediocre teachers, even bad teachers, but in the end, most public schools offered ample opportunity for education to those willing to pursue it. The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/

(edit: had to edit some messed up quotes in this - confusing to anyone who read it right after I posted it)

I do not like the term public school. I prefer "Failure Factory". I support higher taxes on the underclass so we can expand the success of the Failure Factories. For example LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in California while producing students who achieve the lowest test scores. This is a wonderful success in producing underling failures. My hat is off to you LAUSD.

After all, my boots aren't going to lick themselves.

Reality, and CDW, you are obviously alter egos of trolls I already have on ignore. So I will add you to the list now, and you can now make any ridiculously stupid, dishonest and factually deficient comment you would like, without a response from me.

As the kids say, "haters gonna hate."

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

For example LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in California

A lie.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/26/995141/see-how-well-your-school-district.html

marcus says

Administrator aren't the ones who decide how much to spend on teachers. It comes from the school board and from higher levels in government.

The administrators decide who gets tenure who doesn't. That's the issue I was addressing when you said that without union the more experienced teachers would be let go and substituted by new teachers.

How much we spend on education is really what this is all about.

In other words, failures should be rewarded with more funding. That's exactly the problem with Monopolist Schools.

Some want to argue for competition. I've addressed this before. There would be some advantages, and some disadvantages. It probably can't really be done right without totally destroying public education.

The Monopolist Schools have done a fine job of destroying the Monopolist Education system already.

Question, what percentage of public schools do you think are really really good ?

People ask silly questions like that should not have the right to teach my kids. What the heck is "really really good"? Different parents have different standards on what is "really really good": some want special attention to their gifted kids, some want every kid treated the same so their retard can feel a sense of belonging. The two goals are not compatible, yet both are eminently understandable coming from any parent who is blessed with a kid that is unusual. That's why Monopolist School scheme would never work.

marcus says

But it could also be someone who is fortunate in any number of ways independent of school, and knows it, and has learned that "giving" and "helping others" etc. can be a more rewarding (even from an enlightened selfish standpoint ), more meaningful way to spend the 50,000 plus hours of their work life, than just grinding away at making money.

I'm sure that many that go in to health care, science, social work, even law (sometimes), or criminal justice, setting up a website like this one, vetrinary science, or even politics (sometimes) and many other fields are at least partly motivated by such thinking.

Then you are not talking about "giving back" at all, but about extorting the taxpayer into paying you for something that you want to do! Should all wannabe bands be paid by the government extorting money from taxpayers because making music is what the band members enjoy doing for the 50,000hrs of their working lives? Actually, shouldn't the typical private sector employee work on average 88,000 over 40 years? 2200hrs per year. Being able to retire after only 50,000hrs when the rest of the society has to work 75% more hours is just one of the parameters showing just how grossly overpriced Monopoly School teachers have become. Little wonder people want to be in that privileged position feeding at the trough if they can get it.

A person deserves to be paid as a teacher only if the parents of kids say so with their own money. Just like, a chef deserves to be paid only if the patrons are willing to pay for the food he/she cooks up. Food is after all far more fundamental to human survival than even education. Should we use tax money to subsidize good-for-nothing chefs who waste raw food? and give them more funding when they turn good ingredients into unappetizing cooked food? It's all about how much we spend on the Monopolist restaurant, right?

marcus says

Reality, and CDW, you are obviously alter egos of trolls I already have on ignore. So I will add you to the list now, and you can now make any ridiculously stupid, dishonest and factually deficient comment you would like, without a response from me.

As the kids say, "haters gonna hate."

I read your posts for the first time this afternoon. You are supplying another piece evidence for your low intelligence and analytical skills, narrow-mindedness, and overall disqualification to be the teacher of any promising mind. A mind is terrible thing to waste. I feel sorry for your students.

marcus says

That's not true. The big thing these days is "evaluation." You don't think that unions change and can respond to criticism (even from within) over their shortcomings ?
Nothing is written in stone, one teachers union is different from the next, and they are all adapting to pressures, from within and from society in general

Maybe some of the really obvious bad teachers get fired. But as one teacher at my daughter's school said to me last year: "You have to pretty much show up drunk to get fired here."

My other daughter's algebra teacher gave her a B in her Algebra class last year and begged me to allow her to go on to Geometry next year in high school. She took the Algebra Final at a private high school and got a 54% on it. My daughter got a 86% on the public school final... That Alegbra teacher obviously not very good and my daughter now gets to repeat Algebra this coming year with the exact same text book she used last year.

Your theory, marcus, does not match the facts on the ground in public schools my daughters attend.

marcus says

If the teacher's union would have allowed all teachers to take across the board pay and benefit cuts then we would not have 40+ students per class coming up this year.
That's more made up bs. We are in our third year of furlough days.

Go to any school board meeting and you will see that school board members elected by teacher's unions have proposed increasing class size to off-set major cuts to all unions members serving in the school district. And shocker these same school board members voted to increase class sizes. Yes there have been some furloughs that have been accepted, but how does teaching our students less days in the school year benefit the students?? Teachers already have the entire summer off.

cdw7503 says

Teachers already have the entire summer off.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the "entire summer" is now 6-8 weeks in most areas. During which you don't get paid. Or you can choose to stretch your paycheck over 12 months for convenience. Either way it's not a "paid vacation" for teachers.

The point of furloughs is saving money during budget cuts and nothing more. It has to do with MATH, a difficult subject for many. Last year we gave you X, now we are giving you X-2 so cut on supplies or teach more students with fewer teachers so the budget balances.

As has been said elsewhere:

If teaching is such a road to the fatcat life, why aren't YOU in the applicant line.

This thread is chock full of lamebrain statements.

marcus says

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

For example LAUSD has the highest paid teachers in California

A lie.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/26/995141/see-how-well-your-school-district.html

Good sir, the Chartist muckrakers at the SacBee manipulated the numbers and do not factor in benefits. I quote: "Notes: Average teacher salaries are often a reflection of three things: An area's cost of living, how much the district is willing to pay and the number of experienced teachers the district employs."

Indeed LAUSD teachers are among the highest paid in the nation.

http://m.vvdailypress.com/opinion/teachers-11599-teacher-lausd.html

marcus says

The unions say ok lets see how bad we can make our public schools to teach Californians a lesson of who really controls our schools.
You're obviously still learning (NOT !!)

This is a classic union tactic. Squeeze the tax payer as much as possible so they will give in to tax increases. If they don't give in then squeeze them some more until it really hurts.

I'm so glad we have public sector unions who would rather hurt the children in our society rather than take pay and benefits cuts for the good of our community. Our children have to learn that when adults act selfishly enough they get their way even if it hurts our children and their education. Thanks for making the public sector union selfishness argument marcus it really makes sense now.

cdw7503 says

but how does teaching our students less days in the school year benefit the students??

Okay, you got me. I'll respond. Some of the furlough days occur during holidays.

And yes, it's true that unions try to preserve hard won pay gains (that were achieved prior to 2008.) We're now paid less than 2008 because of the furlough days, but the salary schedule is still the same, so that in the event the economy comes back a little we won't have to fight up to those 2008 levels again. (They will just stop the furloughs)

It's a crime that those selfish teachers are hoping that maybe in 2012 or 2014 they might be able to receive their full 2008 pay again. Fucking selfish greedy teachers.

Sorry everyone, I'll try not to unignore again.

Vicente says

I'm unaware of ANY human enterprise in which their isn't a hierarchy of job assignments.

The FNG always gets the shit jobs.

Wake me when the general is crawling through the muck alongside the privates, or the senior salesman is cleaning the toilets and delivering memos. Suggest otherwise and you'll be some kind of SOCIALIST demanding everyone work their day in the community fields.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

We are not talking about separate assignments for accomplishing the same project here. The examples you gave are bureaucracies; the military being especially odd in this context. I suppose the union is somewhat better than the de jure slavery system that is the military.

The example Marcus gave, all teachers preferring to teach 6th grade instead of 2nd, presumably because the 6th grade is easier and more enjoyable whereas the 2nd grade is a pain in the rear end. So exactly does Marcus' earlier point about the value of experience jive with this? After a teacher gains 5 years of teaching experience teaching the more difficult 2nd grade, she gets to teach the easier 6th grade?! How the heck does "experience" work in the Monopolist School system anyway? It's like saying a doctor has to start with the unglamorous and difficult brain surgery first, then after a few years, he gets to be plastic surgeon touching up people's noses for big bucks. It's not specialization or experience we are talking about when it comes to Monopoly Schools, but mafia spoils division.

marcus says

Reality, and CDW, you are obviously alter egos of trolls I already have on ignore. So I will add you to the list now, and you can now make any ridiculously stupid, dishonest and factually deficient comment you would like, without a response from me.
As the kids say, "haters gonna hate."

This is marcus's way of saying: "I can not counter your facts with facts of my own so I am going to call you a "hater" and hope no one notices that my arguments don't hold up when challenged."

Thank you marcus for trying. Maybe you will win the day when others who do not know any better will agree with you and the class warfare "hatred" you speak.

Why should I bother? Whatever I say, it'll go in one ear and right out the other.

You aren't here to actually LISTEN to ANYONE.

Me, I've learned a few things on this forum. I've even admitted I'm wrong sometimes. Your type? Never.

Vicente says

I don't know if you've noticed, but the "entire summer" is now 6-8 weeks in most areas. During which you don't get paid. Or you can choose to stretch your paycheck over 12 months for convenience. Either way it's not a "paid vacation" for teachers.
The point of furloughs is saving money during budget cuts and nothing more. It has to do with MATH, a difficult subject for many. Last year we gave you X, now we are giving you X-2 so cut on supplies or teach more students with fewer teachers so the budget balances.
As has been said elsewhere:
If teaching is such a road to the fatcat life, why aren't YOU in the applicant line.
This thread is chock full of lamebrain statements.

My sister makes over $80K a year with full benefits 12 months a year as a teacher here in Sac. Somehow she makes it stretch for 12 months and is free to get a part time job in the summer if she wants. She also gets paid vacation/holidays on top of that. Her total compensation package is $125K a year. And she gets the summer off. Maybe teachers are not going to get rich off that but the package is better than 90% of the private sector packages offered in CA.

Vicente says

Why should I bother? Whatever I say, it'll go in one ear and right out the other.
You aren't here to actually LISTEN to ANYONE.
Me, I've learned a few things on this forum. I've even admitted I'm wrong sometimes. Your type? Never.

Because maybe I am right. If I am not then prove me wrong.

marcus says

Okay, you got me. I'll respond. Some of the furlough days occur during holidays.
And yes, it's true that unions try to preserve hard won pay gains (that were achieved prior to 2008.) We're now paid less than 2008 because of the furlough days, but the salary schedule is still the same, so that in the event the economy comes back a little we won't have to fight up to those 2008 levels again. (They will just stop the furloughs)
It's a crime that those selfish teachers are hoping that maybe in 2012 or 2014 they might be able to receive their full 2008 pay again. Fucking selfish greedy teachers.
Sorry everyone, I'll try not to unignore again.

You did not answer the question. How does teachers agreeing to teach less days benefit the students who need teachers to learn in the classroom? I'm sorry that I don't sympathize with unions who are unwilling to ask members to make sacrafices. The teachers can always go teach some where else if they feel they are being mistreated by the public they have choosen to serve, can't they?

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

marcus says

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

Calling someone a "troll" doesn't make your agruments any stronger marcus. If you can not support your agruments with facts then maybe you should leave marcus. I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Vicente says

Why should I bother? Whatever I say, it'll go in one ear and right out the other.

You aren't here to actually LISTEN to ANYONE.

Me, I've learned a few things on this forum. I've even admitted I'm wrong sometimes. Your type? Never.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Please stick to the topic instead of content-free personal attack. Even if you put in a few barbs in the middle of pointing out where you think my analysis is wrong, I'd be okay with that.

marcus says

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

Content-free name-calling is essentially admitting that you are running out of argument. If you have any thing substantive to say about my analysis, I'm all ears.

From Wikipedia

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]

What I usually mean by "troll" is specifically this part: "with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] "

About 80% of the posts, and 50% of the comments from our king of the Patrick.net Trolls (Shrek) fit this description. On the topic of unions, we now seem to have a few trolls. Although it may be just one or two under various identities.

Vicente is right. These guys know nothing about education, except what they have been told on right wing talk radio. And they certainly aren't going to learn anything from me.

If readers of this forum choose to believe their lies, and stupidity, that is their choice. I can't worry about it.

Vicente says

I don't know if you've noticed, but the "entire summer" is now 6-8 weeks in most areas. During which you don't get paid. Or you can choose to stretch your paycheck over 12 months for convenience. Either way it's not a "paid vacation" for teachers.

Of course it is paid vacation. The annual pay is calculated to be comparable to a worker holding a job all those 12 months. In calculating retirement benefits, each school year is counted as a year of service, not a 3/4 year of service.

If teaching is such a road to the fatcat life, why aren't YOU in the applicant line.

For the same reason that I did not become a realtwhore in the bubble years, and I'm not becoming a banker now. I did actually volunteer teaching after-school at middle school and at community college . . . and I didn't have kids at either place. I wasn't paid in anything except for the kids' appreciations. So I know a thing or two about "giving back." It most emphatically does not involve unions.

This thread is chock full of lamebrain statements.

That's a good comment on some of what you and Marcus have written.

marcus says

Lying trolls are going to cause some of the people that we learn from around here to leave this forum. It's tiring and annoying, even just the task of not allowing the troll's lies stand.

If you can't even engage in intelligent debate and exchange of ideas, how can you be a competent teacher? as opposed to a brain-washer?

cdw7503 says

Because maybe I am right. If I am not then prove me wrong.

Easy you call summer a "vacation" for teachers. It is not, it is unpaid time off, as certain as any furlough, or part-time worker. Most teachers are not fatcatting around Barbados during the summer, they are working as lifeguards or just looking after their own kids. Summer is only a "vacation" for students who are compelled to be at school the rest of the year.

So you could say you were wrong about that.

marcus says

What I usually mean by "troll" is specifically this part: "with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] "

What exactly was the intention of your posting the ridiculously cooked / renormalized graphs? To show your own lack of basic math skills comparing any two linear fucntions?

These guys know nothing about education, except what they have been told on right wing talk radio.

Except my wife was a full time teacher, and I taught on voluntary basis myself for years. On top of that, I do not listen to any right wing talk radio at all. I always leave my radio on NPR when I'm driving, and that's the only time I listen to radio. Yes, I laugh at some of their silly analyses.

Vicente says

cdw7503 says

Because maybe I am right. If I am not then prove me wrong.

Easy you call summer a "vacation" for teachers. It is not, it is unpaid time off, as certain as any furlough, or part-time worker. Most teachers are not fatcatting around Barbados during the summer, they are working as lifeguards or just looking after their own kids. Summer is only a "vacation" for students who are compelled to be at school the rest of the year.

Is this how low the standards are nowadays? They stay home look after their own kids therefore they deserve to be paid by taxpayers at $6k+ per month? What is this? A welfare program? So long as you don't go to Barbados (where I have never been either in my whole life), you can have 3 months a year vacation, getting off at 3pm the other 9 months, and retire after 50,000 hrs of life time work instead of 88,000 like most other people. No wonder there are zillions of certified teacher wannabes looking for jobs.

Here's the easy solution: let's slash the salary in half, let two new teachers in, and the existing teachers drawing double the wage had better prove themselves to be twice as good in teaching; otherwise there is a ready solution to reducing both teacher-student ratio and unemployment rate.

Teachers don't get paid for the months off. They can usually elect to have their salary spread out monthly, or only take their salary during the 8-9 months when they are working.

Besides, ever go up to a C-Suite on a Friday afternoon? It's usually quiet and nobody is around. They're all in the Hamptons or in some Vineyard getting drunk instead of working like the rest of the slobs. Getting paid to get drunk and go golfing with the same guys from their college fraternity.

Vicente says

Easy you call summer a "vacation" for teachers. It is not, it is unpaid time off, as certain as any furlough, or part-time worker. Most teachers are not fatcatting around Barbados during the summer, they are working as lifeguards or just looking after their own kids. Summer is only a "vacation" for students who are compelled to be at school the rest of the year.
So you could say you were wrong about that.

My dad was a HS teacher. He always called it summer vacation. Call it whatever you want does that really change anything?

thunderlips11 says

Teachers don't get paid for the months off. They can usually elect to have their salary spread out monthly, or only take their salary during the 8-9 months when they are working.

Then the per hour pay would be even more ridiculous. An $80/yr salary would work out to be $10k/month, only 21 work days in a month, on average 6hrs in a school day! The Monopolist School union salary is obviously set up to be a fully year salary, as most teachers do not have to find another job for summer. When calculating retirement benefits, each school year is also counted as a year, instead of 3/4 a year if it's like some of you insist that they are effectively furloughed for those months.

Besides, ever go up to a C-Suite on a Friday afternoon? It's usually quiet and nobody is around. They're all in the Hamptons or in some Vineyard getting drunk instead of working like the rest of the slobs. Getting paid to get drunk and go golfing with the same guys from their college fraternity.

Leadership and Management are not the same thing.

The Monopoly School equivalent to that would be the school district bosses. They too draw $300k+ salaries and go to vacation at the same places that you listed. The teachers however are the equivalent of line workers and average office workers. Their pay is way more than what the average private sector worker can find in a career: about 57% of the work (50k hrs vs. 88k hrs) and almost double the pay in a life time . . . all because the union holds the kids as hostage for ransom.

Compared to other industrialized nations, US teacher pay is solidly in the median.

I agree about the Superintendents. There is entirely too many functionaries.

Also, the schools are too damn big. Whoever had the brilliant idea of packing 1000-2000 hormone-enthused teenagers into one building was clearly a crack head, or suffering from late 19th century gigantism/Taylorism, but I repeat myself.

Small schools and "small learning communities" have been one of the big attempted reforms. There are some benefits, the big one being that everyone knows everyone.

The upside to the huge schools is more diverse course offerings. Plenty of honors classes and AP course in every subject. So the sky is the limit as to what kids can get out of it if they are willing to apply themselves.

A tiny little charter school isn't going to be able to accommodate the really bright kids. They will have to go to local colleges to get many of the classes equivalent to the AP classes offered at many of the bigger public schools.

Ultimately, I believe that class sizes are going to make a bigger difference than overall "small schools" (ie small schools with huge class sizes).

Troy says

Cook County resident says

Just to be clear, he said this happened in the late 60s.

We haven't had it that good since:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/UNRATENSA

There were ~2M males turning 18 each year in the 1960s, and we were drafting a big chunk of them, too.

Baby boom was aged 6 to 21 in 1968. Massive demand generation. Credit was only started getting rolling:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1xQ

I think the unions didn't react well to the demographic changes between the 60s and the 80s. Getting a job was much easier in the 60s.

Another illustration by anecdote:

My brother was working construction and joined the union around 1980. At that time, there was a long slowdown of construction work. There were plenty of second half baby boomers ready to work but the union sent most of the jobs to the guys with seniority. Senior guys who got work easy enough in the 50s and 60s and were still getting work easy enough during the slowdown.

For a while, he's spending his days watching daytime TV and worrying about his bills, including his union dues. So he gives up on the union, gets a non union job in manufacturing and has been working steadily for over 25 years.

So, if his union had acted less like an old boy's network in times of a labor surplus, maybe they'd have more boys around today.

thunderlips11 says

Also, the schools are too damn big. Whoever had the brilliant idea of packing 1000-2000 hormone-enthused teenagers into one building was clearly a crack head, or suffering from late 19th century gigantism/Taylorism, but I repeat myself.

Almost 4000 students there when I was in High School. About 45% white -- mostly working class kids with some higher income, about 45% black -- mostly kids from two parent homes with a job holder and a significant number of inner city kids who were improperly registered by relatives who didn't want their kids in the inner city schools. The balance was mostly second generation Hispanic.

I learned alot there. One of the things I learned is that the kids mostly reflected their upbringing and family's expectations. Kids were smart or not so smart, or they might have had wonderful teachers or not, but whatever, they were likely to end up much like their families and neighbors.

It blows my mind that Math and Science teachers are not payed at a premium.