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just to be clear, I don't wish financial hardship on others but it's my belief that human beings learn their greatest lessons from pain and failure, rather than from happiness and success...
But people migrate to OTHER countries as well, not just to the U.S., so your argument makes no sense
Yea you wont find any cute graphs that reveal all. But that does not negate anything i'm saying.
The data is in the immigration, it is tantamount to people voting with their comparative advantage. Which is why the standard of living is a smidge better than 100 years ago. If you get this concept no explanation is necessary.
Your post is essentially a random collection of words, completely non-responsive and devoid of facts.
For the fifth time, show us your data.
Your post is essentially a random collection of words, completely non-responsive and devoid of facts.
Says the blind man
Your post is essentially a random collection of words, completely non-responsive and devoid of facts.
Says the blind man
Sixth time - your data? Ad hominem is not data.
"I'm not the only one who understands that Trickle-down doesn't work"
Only people arguing this are Socialist... frankly not even the Democrats
are willing to take a anti Trickle down stance...
case in point.... go ask Gov Cuomo...
http://www.governor.ny.gov/press/05222013-tax-free-ny-initiative
Governor Cuomo Unveils Major Economic Development Initiative to Transform University Communities into Magnets for New Businesses and Investment
Under Tax-Free NY, Any New Business Will Be Able to Operate Tax Free on a SUNY Campus for Ten Years
Albany, NY (May 22, 2013)
Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today unveiled "Tax-Free NY," a game-changing initiative that will transform SUNY campuses and university communities across the state into tax-free communities that attract start-ups, venture capital, new business, and investments from across the world.
Tax-Free NY will entice companies to bring their ventures to Upstate New York by offering new businesses the opportunity to operate completely tax-free – including no income tax for employees, no sales, property or business tax – while also partnering with the world-class higher education institutions in the SUNY system.
"Over the past two years we have cut middle class tax rates to their lowest rates in sixty years, cut taxes for small businesses, while at the same time investing like never before in our institutions of higher education," Governor Cuomo said. "With unemployment at its lowest in years and more private sector jobs in New York than ever before, we are beginning to see the results of our efforts. Tax-Free NY will supercharge our efforts to grow our economy by transforming localities in Upstate New York into virtual tax-free communities for new businesses and new jobs. Under Tax-Free NY, communities across Upstate will become a magnet for new businesses, new startups, new venture capital, and new jobs, taking our economic development and job creating efforts to a level never seen before."
At the same time, there is far too much loose cash sloshing around at the top, leading to unwise risks and toxic investments. Wealth inequality in the US was at its highest levels, historically, in 1928 and 2007, one year before its two biggest financial crises, notes Reich.
Like I keep saying.. will there be a day when Reich drives 40 miles south from UCB to Santa Clara and ponder on how the area went from Farm Lands to creating mega industries and companies.. lifting all boats. He certainly needs a lesson on how the wealthy bankrolled tech industry boom with their investments.
Sixth time - your data? Ad hominem is not data.
You are going to say that this does not show why the US is at the bottom of your little graph. As I explained it is because the US does not show public transfers as income to the poor nor income of the rich after taxes. I'm not going to spend hours trying to hunt down a graph that allows you to "comprehend" this subject in sound bytes. This article is apt whether you think so or not:
Socialists commonly cite the existence of the poor as a reason for socialism, and they claim that their concern for the poor shows compassion and morality. Since the topic of poverty is a key battleground in the war of socialism versus capitalism, it is relevant to examine what poverty is, how much of it exists in the United States, and how we can truly eliminate it.
Who Are The Poor?
When we hear of the poor, we envision a massive group of people without food and shelter. In reality, most of the poor in capitalistic countries such as the United States are not in such a state. Data from a recent census reveals that of the official "poor":[1]
76 percent have air conditioning.
66 percent have more than two rooms of living space per person.
97 percent own at least one color television.
62 percent have either cable or satellite television.
Almost 75 percent of households own a car (30 percent own two or more).
73 percent own microwave ovens.
More than 50 percent have stereos.
33 percent have automatic dishwashers.
99 percent have refrigerators.
Virtually none lack running water or flushing toilets.
46 percent own their own home, the average of which is a three bedroom house with 1.5 baths, that has a carport and porch or patio, and the average value of which is 70 percent of the median American home.
From this:
Government is only too big when it entertains thoughts of doing something to help money distribute downward: then it's not only too big, it's called communism, socialism, or any other hysterical BS word you can think of which we have all been raised to fear.
Can you elaborate on this statement?
You are going to say that this does not show why the US is at the bottom of your little graph. As I explained it is because the US does not show public transfers as income to the poor nor income of the rich after taxes. I'm not going to spend hours trying to hunt down a graph that allows you to "comprehend" this subject in sound bytes. This article is apt whether you think so or not:
This is complete bullshit. The amount that transfers reduce the poverty rate in the U.S. is again DEAD LAST among the developed countries in this chart:
So your argument actually hurts your position even MORE, because including transfers in the equation would make the U.S. look even worse. By the way, it took me very little time to find this chart that you couldn't be bothered to "hunt down". You seem to have an aversion to facts.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
So your argument actually hurts your position even MORE, because including transfers in the equation would make the U.S. look even worse.
No it does not include public transfers so the poor ger money from the government that is not counted as income. They also work for cash which also does not show up in statistics.
By the way, it took me very little time to find this chart that you couldn't be bothered to "hunt down".
Exactly and look how fallacious it is.
No it does not include public transfers so the poor ger money from the government that is not counted as income. They also work for cash which also does not show up in statistics.
Either you are not bothering to read, or you are slooooow. Allow me to explain this to you a second time: The poor get MORE money from the government in the other countries. Therefore, if we were to include that money in the statistics, the U.S. would fare WORSE in comparison to the other countries, not better.
What part of that are you failing to understand?
By the way, it took me very little time to find this chart that you couldn't be bothered to "hunt down".
Exactly and look how fallacious it is.
It is not "fallacious". You are full of shit, and you're acting like a troll.
The poor get MORE money from the government in the other countries.
Now it is your turn to show the data
The poor get MORE money from the government in the other countries.
Now it is your turn to show the data
Um, I already posted it, right here:
http://patrick.net/?p=1237143&c=1046016#comment-1046016
The chart shows the amount that poverty is reduced by government transfers. As you can see, (if you know how to read a chart) poverty is reduced the LEAST in the U.S., because we provide the least assistance to the poor. You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension.
Honestly, dude - I can forgive stupidity, but stupidity coupled with arrogance is unforgivable.
Um, I already posted it, right here:
It makes no mention of that let alone the actual data
Um, I already posted it, right here:
It makes no mention of that let alone the actual data
I think you need to read the report. This is obviously going over your head. It couldn't be more obvious.
http://www.epi.org/publication/ib339-us-poverty-higher-safety-net-weaker/
Figure F plots the differences between pre and post tax and transfer poverty rates in the United States and peer countries. (As with Figure C, the measure used here is the relative poverty rate, the share of the population below half of median household income.) For example, the pretax and transfer poverty rate in the United States in the late 2000s was 27.0 percent, while the post-tax and transfer rate was 17.3 percent. The difference, 9.7 percentage points, is how much the U.S. tax and transfer system reduced the poverty rate. Among the peer countries in Figure F, the United States’ tax and transfer system does the least to reduce the poverty rate. In contrast, tax and transfer programs reduced the poverty rate in France by 25.4 percentage points (from 32.6 percent to 7.2 percent post tax and transfer). France’s redistributive programs lowered poverty by about 2.5 times as much as those of the United States. The (unweighted) average effect of peer countries’ tax and transfer programs is a poverty-rate reduction of 17.4 percentage points—an effect nearly two times greater than that produced by such programs in the United States.
population below half of median household income
This is number is subject to false reporting because household income changes a lot.
This is talking about categories not real people. Real people move in and out of categories.
This is number is subject to false reporting because household income changes a lot.
This is talking about categories not real people. Real people move in and out of categories.
Blah, blah, what?
Sorry, you lose.
Small business is sometimes exempt from some regulation, but to make such a
blanket claim as you regarding regulation in general shows you know nothing
about small business, or regulation.I'm refering to the type of regulation which you implied in your last post.
What type of regulation did I imply in my post? It was you, not me, who claimed that there is literally less regulation now than 30 years ago. I was responding to you. So to address this honestly, you would need to say that you were referring to the type of regulation which YOU implied in your post. What type of regulation was that?
If you think I'm incorrect-please detail the regulations that small companies spend much more time complying with now than 30-35 years ago.
If you think you are correct, please post some sources showing that despite some specific examples of deregulation, regulation as a whole is less now than 30 years ago.
It is you who repeatedly made the claim about regulation. So as you so often ask of others: "Source?"
I'm sorry--are we talking about the 1-5 person medical device manufacturing market? I thought we were talking about the US in general
I thought that we were talking about the US in general as well. But didn't you claim that my general response to you was implying some particular type of regulation (when it wasn't)? Even more importantly, didn't YOU claim that small businesses were typically exempt from regulation?
The only honest answers to my question are (a) Yes and (b) 'I don't know.' Both answers would of course force you to admit that your blanket claim that small businesses are generally exempt from regulation was false. It is too bad that you are now so firmly, emotionally entrenched in the forum culture here that you're unable to carry on an honest debate.
As he accuses of others, Tat's got his own narrative that he needs to stick
to, no matter what. That's the only way anyone could actually believe that there
are literally fewer regulations on business today than 30 years ago, or that big
business rent seeking behavior via regulation really doesn't impact small
business.
I don't recall ever giving an opinion on large businesses rent seeking behavior, but thanks for providing it for me. I'll remember so next time I need someone to speak for me.
You mean you didn't claim that there is literally less regulation today than 30 years ago, and you didn't claim that small businesses are generally exempt from regulation?
population below half of median household income
This is number is subject to false reporting because household income changes a lot.
This is talking about categories not real people. Real people move in and out of categories.
It is quite possible that the European countries are less broken up because they do not have the Gloria Steinem effect. Additionally they may have more than 2 incomes per household.
The mean income could also be lower because of more equality in the European countries.
So in North Korea there might be no poverty because the deviation from the mean is very small.
Or it may mean that the US is not as socialistic as the European countries. Which probably is the case and that is good thing. As we are seeing in the US the better the benefits for unemployment the more unemployment there is.
It is quite possible that the European countries are less broken up because they do not have the Gloria Steinem effect. Additionally they may have more than 2 incomes per household.
The mean income could also be lower because of more equality in the European countries.
So in North Korea there might be no poverty because the deviation from the mean is very small.
All of that guessing does not change the fact that you were wrong.
Or it may mean that the US is not as socialistic as the European countries.
The U.S. government gives less money to the poor. That is all the explanation needed. Not sure why you feel it necessary to pin a label on it; it's already self-explanatory.
Which probably is the case and that is good thing.
Whether it's good or bad is a matter of opinion and not relevant to what we were talking about. If I could nudge you back on track here, you claimed that the poor in the U.S. are better off than the poor in other developed countries. I showed that they are, in fact, NOT better off, and actually WORSE off. Then you claimed that the data was skewed because of government transfers to the poor. But I then showed that the government transfers would skew the data in the OPPOSITE direction from that which you believed.
So you're still wrong.
So you're still wrong.
Could be and I hope the graph is correct because the less nanny state there is the better
Couple points
You confuse big business with cronyism. Big business is not problem. Cronyism is. Especially when it is practiced from a Federal level.
Nazism = Communism there is no difference this is a meme
Real Value is only created with market clearing.
The economy we have now is not real so does not create real value and real jobs.
You see the economy always grows in new ways it never comes back like it was. When computers were created the new skills required were programmers and tech guys manual skills became obsolete. If the government keeps the old company s propped up with bailouts and QEs the new remains starved.
Your point is more conjecture than facts.
No matter what your leanings the problem is spending which is facilitated by the Central Bank, the way the rich make more money is through inflation. That has been the MO for about 40 years since we dropped the gold standard. It has been the MO for 100 years but it has really manifested in the last 40.
Everything else you talk about is just noise and of no consequence.
I don't know why you would be wary of the gold monger?
Nazism is purported to be the extreme conservative end of forms of government. This is just not true it is just another flavor of communism.
The markets are set to clear alright: The real economy was effectively lost around the year 1999, so a series of fakes were created to buy working class silence, approval and cooperation with program conservatism (nuvo-liberalism) so the agenda could be imprinted more irrefutably into society, and more irreversibly.
No the real economy was lost about a hundred years ago. At the start of the 1910s and got worst after the 1970s. There's very little difference in terms of real economy between 1999 and today.
Graphs represent number, not people, but rather numbers of people, so you struggle to thwart that measurement.
As I have stated many times graphs represent many inputs and rarely what is asserted. As your ilk would have us believe.
You are referring to Homeboys graph. Typically these type studies are specious as with the Piketty Saez study. Which use fallacious household income numbers that Elizabeth Warren blathers about, or the idea that categories do not represent real people, or that idea that public transfers are usually not counted as income for the poor although Homeboys' graph appears not to do that, or the idea that the graph is based off of mean income which most likely means that the US mean income is higher than European countries mean income.
I was surprised that the US poor have a lower income than the other developed countries, although I'm still not convinced because these studies are notorious for being fallacious. Most' likely skewed by the household income category. But on the off chance that it is accurate that is a good thing.
Your inability to follow what I'm saying does not automatically mean I'm using a shell game.
When it comes to economics YOU BET that natural law is rare. This is because the subject is rife with bogus information. If you can recite the axioms how much longer before you understand them?
You are referring to Homeboys graph. Typically these type studies are specious as with the Piketty Saez study. Which use fallacious household income numbers that Elizabeth Warren blathers about, or the idea that categories do not represent real people, or that idea that public transfers are usually not counted as income for the poor although Homeboys' graph appears not to do that, or the idea that the graph is based off of mean income which most likely means that the US mean income is higher than European countries mean income.
This is not an argument; it is just cheap gamesmanship. You provide no facts or data, only blithe banalities, baseless conjecture, cliches, and irrelevancies. You demand that others provide the facts, then merely sit back and attack them with hypotheticals. "Typically these studies are specious"? What the fuck? That means absolutely nothing. If you wish to impugn my data, tell us how THAT data is specious, SPECIFICALLY, and I mean with concrete examples, not just vague aspersions. Otherwise you're just flapping your pie hole.
Then you repeat the same argument about transfers that I already decimated, completely ignoring and failing to respond to the facts that I provided. This is straight out of the troll playbook. Very weak. I can only assume you are a troll and your only objective here is to piss everyone off. Well, you are doing an excellent job of that. I guess you get some kind of boner from that, so knock yourself out.
This is not an argument; it is just cheap gamesmanship.
You flatter yourself. Notice this graph showing the median income instead of household income.
Here is another
The Austrians make into a high art the phrase: "The key to success is knowing whom to blame for your failures."
It is hard to sound the depths of your obtuseness.
Here is another
That's a second-hand chart, where The Economist "crunched" some numbers from the Better Life Index, but they don't explain exactly what they did. Frankly, it doesn't make any sense. If I go directly to the Better Life Index and cut out the middleman, I find statistics that show other countries kicking our ass in terms of how much wealth the bottom of the population has:
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/
Out of the following developed countries I picked, despite having the highest wealth for the top 20%, the U.S. has the lowest wealth for the bottom 20%:
U.S. - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 82 666 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 10 434 USD a year .
Switzerland - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 57 485 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 12 593 USD a year.
Sweden - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 46 688 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 11 528 USD a year.
Norway - average net adjusted disposable the income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 53 912 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 14 621 USD a year.
Germany - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 53 978 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 12 544 USD a year.
France - the average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 55 477 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 12 216 USD a year.
Finland - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 44992 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 12 236 USD a year.
Denmark - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 42 795 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 11 946 USD a year.
Belgium - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 47 038 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 12 075 USD a year.
Austria - average net adjusted disposable income of the top 20% of the population is an estimated 52 387 USD a year, whereas the bottom 20% live on an estimated 13 515 USD a year.
So out of these countries, despite being the wealthiest, the bottom 20% in the United States have the LEAST wealth. And that's from your OWN source.
That's a second-hand chart, where The Economist "crunched" some numbers from the Better Life Index
I would have to think freedom comes into the metric?
I find statistics that show other countries kicking our ass in terms of how much wealth the bottom of the population has
That is not what the 1st graph shows
Which is located here:
I see a difference between the graph that is based off of median household income and the graph that is based off of median income.
I think the people who do these studies start out with an agenda, not that they intentionally lie (like gore), but their preconceived notions colors their thinking.
That's a second-hand chart, where The Economist "crunched" some numbers from the Better Life Index
I would have to think freedom comes into the metric?
Huh?
I find statistics that show other countries kicking our ass in terms of how much wealth the bottom of the population has
That is not what the 1st graph shows
I don't think you're following. That's just a reprint of your "first graph", which, as I said, is based on The Economist "crunching" some numbers from The Better Life Index. O.K., two problems there:
1) The Economist never explains which numbers they actually used and how they made their calculations. In fact, what they DO say is contradictory. At one point they say the chart is based on "10 indicators", but at another point, they say it is based on "income and education". It's been awhile since I took a math class, but I believe "income and education" would add up to TWO indicators, not 10. So basically they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
2) As I already showed you, if you look at the PRIMARY source, i.e. the OECD Better Life Index, you see that the bottom 20% in the U.S. aren't anywhere EVEN CLOSE to being the best off in the world financially.
Now I guess you're trying to claim that you're counting other factors, yet you have no idea what these factors are, and it isn't explained in The Economist article at all, and you never brought up any "other factors" before. So I call bullshit on your "other factors".
And now you post a Forbes article which is a THIRD HAND source. It is merely a reprint of the chart in The Economist which in turn is a reprint of the data from OECD, except it doesn't explain how the data was used, and contradicts other data that can be found on the OECD website.
I see a difference between the graph that is based off of median household income and the graph that is based off of median income.
I have no idea what you're talking about here.
Now, your other chart, which is shown in the Forbes article, is admittedly out of date, and the author says, he "seems to recall" that it's from 2004, but apparently can't even remember. So I really hope you're not planning to hang your hat on THAT chart.
I think the people who do these studies start out with an agenda, not that they intentionally lie (like gore), but their preconceived notions colors their thinking.
So then when YOU post numbers from OECD, it supposedly proves something, but when I show you numbers from the SAME source, then they're inaccurate because they have "an agenda"? Um, sure....whatever you say.
So basically they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
So you are more of an authority than they are? I don't think so...
You did not link the economist article so I don't know what you are talking about.
The main point I'm making is the difference between median income and median household income.
As far as it being out of date doesn't matter as this is supposedly a trend that has been occurring for decades.
As far as your coming up with actual numbers, not that is necessarily accurate, but the deviation from the US income is around 15% (except Norway) Not exactly kicking our ass?
As far as freedom goes, yes if I have to explain that to you then I'm wasting my time.
So you are more of an authority than they are? I don't think so...
Wow, what a hypocrite you are. You did the same thing, and you did it FIRST. You dismissed all the data I posted as being "false reporting", "specious", and "fallacious".
So do YOU think you're more of an authority than they are? I don't think so.
You did not link the economist article so I don't know what you are talking about.
Um, the chart YOU posted says "economist.com" at the bottom. So you're saying that when I refer to the source of YOUR chart, you don't know what I'm talking about? You're not exactly making yourself look good here.
The main point I'm making is the difference between median income and median household income.
Not shown in your charts. For that to be a valid argument, you have to show exactly how the type of income measurement makes the U.S. look worse than it actually is in relation to other countries. You haven't done that.
As far as it being out of date doesn't matter as this is supposedly a trend that has been occurring for decades.
Nope. Wealth disparity is on the rise in the U.S.; it has changed dramatically in the last few decades. The date most certainly DOES matter.
As far as your coming up with actual numbers, not that is necessarily accurate, but the deviation from the US income is around 15% (except Norway) Not exactly kicking our ass?
Not interested in semantics games. The point is, you claimed that the poor in the U.S. are better off than the poor in other developed countries, and I showed that is not true. Also, the bottom 20% in Germany make 20% more than the bottom 20% in the U.S. So no, not 15%.
As far as freedom goes, yes if I have to explain that to you then I'm wasting my time.
No, you don't need to explain what freedom is, you just need to explain what the rest of that cryptic sentence was supposed to mean.
But yes, pretty much everything you write is a waste of time. I'll agree with that.
So you are more of an authority than they are? I don't think so...
Wow, what a hypocrite you are. You did the same thing, and you did it FIRST. You dismissed all the data I posted as being "false reporting", "specious", and "fallacious".
Typically they are
Not more of an authority just not lying.
Not shown in your charts. For that to be a valid argument, you have to show exactly how the type of income measurement makes the U.S. look worse than it actually is in relation to other countries. You haven't done that.
The first graph is labeled at the bottom Median Income
Nope. Wealth disparity is on the rise in the U.S.; it has changed dramatically in the last few decades. The date most certainly DOES matter.
The graph is about a decade out of date
Admittedly it has been on the rise more sharply since 2008 because of the bailout when Jeff Immelt, Buffet, Dimon, et al. should have have had their wealth hammered.
Also, the bottom 20% in Germany make 20% more than the bottom 20% in the U.S. So no, not 15%
Even 20% is not shockingly terrible. But the median income graph does not show that?
No, you don't need to explain what freedom is, you just need to explain what the rest of that cryptic sentence was supposed to mean.
A big factor in motivation is freedom.
Another factor is that the Socialist states are borrowing to keep their standard of living higher than it should be. Sweden is usually used as an example of how successful socialism can be. The problem is that they were very much a capitalist country before they became socialistic which is the real reason for their success.
A big part of the reason for Germany's success is their monetary policy which keeps them as a surplus producer country and the other European countries as deficit countries. Which is why the PIGS are in trouble. This is the same thing China does.
A couple things to keep in mind:
1. In the European socialist states, Homeboy's feel-good meds wouldn't be covered. Those highly expensive covered meds fo the poor in this country are not factored into "net adjusted disposable income," even though in reality it is a very hefty chunk of the poor's net income tapping from other people's wallet, just as money spent on fancy food and fashionable clothing is.
2. Norway with its 5mil people is the equivalent of a city; France at 50mil is the equivalent of a state. Germany is the equivalent of 2-3 states. In order to find Europe's equivalent to something like the bottom 20% concentrated in places like West Virginia, you need to look into European places like Albania, Romania, Slovakia, etc.
The first graph is labeled at the bottom Median Income
Percent of US Median Income by:
Low Income (10 percentile) Households
So you think they are comparing Low Income households to the US median individual income, and not household income?
Ha.
And you think the bottom 10% household income in the US is (it looks like) 39% of the median individual income in the US? Just do a sniff test - Using the Household data from each, 10% is about $17.5k annual, median is about $50k - 17/50 is 37% in 2011, from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
Pretty close. Now compare that to the median household income for the 10%, again $17.5k, and the median individual wage, from ssa.gov below - $26,965 in 2011. That is ~65%.
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html
Sorry, I don't care what year that graph is from - it is NOT comparing 10% and 90% household income to US median individual income.
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