patrick.net

mmmarvel says

She decided the competition was too stiff and she wasn't interested in med school so her last year she switched to psyc major and graduated with that degree (pretty worthless).

Here's an alt path. Bachelors Psychology -> Masters -> Kiss a lot of ass -> Get a job somewhere, anywhere doing evaluations -> Start evaluating people as a consultant.

I know somebody who does this and gets $300 for about 4 hours of work: One interview hour, three write-up hours. Of course, she has lots of family and ethnic group support who send her clients. But basically, 20 hours of work = $1500/week.

The hard part is networking to get enough clients without a support squad of medical pro's in your family's circle of influence.

Dan8267 says

So if you want housing, stay a college student.

Sorry, but many areas around colleges which used to be cheap are now skyrocketing because of "urban density". And they kick the kids out of dorms after freshman year.

And do you really need to go college to make a mark on the world?
http://smaulgld.com/is-college-worth-it/

smaulgld says

And do you really need to go to make a mark on the world?

You skimmed 10 people at the very top who fate destined to be great and then suggest that everyone else jump into to the street the same way?

It's this kind of thinking that allowed the meritocracy to decay.

Alternatively, save all your (minimum wage salary) and buy one single lottery ticket.
Why one? Because the odds of winning one lottery versus multiple ones, is about the same...nearly zero.

Rin says

I believe a lot of the above is our Yankee pride. Parents want to say “Sure, my kid is somewhat lazy and not all that diligent but guess what ... she graduated from a private college, 'Emily Dickinson College' and now, works as a paralegal. Look what a great job we did.” and then, they use this, to feel superior to some other kid's family, who'd done the community college route, but now, has little debt and is actually building a career, and not referring his alma mater [ a.k.a. paid for prestige ] as his only source of personal pride & mental development.

Yes, it's group think and slow adoption to new rules; it's like how urbanizing countries often need a generation or two to realize that their prospects are actually harmed by having too many children and cut back - they're not on the farm anymore. Tradition functions longer than needed before being discarded.

For my child, I would hope he pursues anything he likes - but I'm not going to pay a lot for that muffler. What I will pay for is a trade like HVAC repair or Welding or Plumbing.

As for Accounting, it is outsource-able, and eventually will be, except for maybe IRS Tax Prep for the general public and very high level financial stuff where the company wants the bodies nearby for corporate security and legal reasons. It will be just like IT - at first, they'll nix the data entry jobs, then basic coding, and then only the higher level tasks will remain. Those will eventually go mostly to insourced workers, because by removing the lowest rungs here, the lowest rungs to climb the ladder will only be available there.

In 20 years, will there even be a large middle class that pays enough taxes to keep neighborhood tax preppers in business? Not if the current trends continue. But plumbing will always be needed. If HVAC goes, then schooling will be the least of our problems, yam farming will be key.

thunderlips11 says

In 20 years, will there even be a large middle class that pays enough taxes to keep neighborhood tax preppers in business? Not if the current trends continue. But plumbing will always be needed. If HVAC goes, then schooling will be the least of our problems, yam farming will be key.

Well, they can still do the London BS online, while learning a trade.

You see, the degree is only for that HR piece for let's say, 10 years down the road, when a management or team lead position at let's say a facilities company or an oil exploration firm opens up, and they want someone w/ 10 years of field experience but *must have a BS* to be interviewed.

And thus, it's like a gateway from the blue to the white collar staffing, whereas w/o it, the door may be closed.

Rin says

Well, they can still do the London BS online, while learning a trade.

Sounds like a plan to me. If they want to learn Sociology or International Relations they can go nuts, as long as they complete a trade program.

They can self-fund a Master's, PhD, or swing P/T unpaid internships via skilled work - as opposed to funding it with debt backed with a Starbuck's job for beer money.

Rin, a comment and a question:
1. I think UL has a year foundation program for 17 year olds that guarantees LSE entrance for those who pass, but as far as I can tell it's either onsite in London or requires a UL-affiliated learning center, which doesn't seem to exist in the USA except for one LLC outfit on the East Coast. That could be a way around the High School dissimilarity problem.

2. Are your friends basing the curriculum on any particular program? I'm looking to start investigating homeschool materials and want to check out some ideas on that front.

thunderlips11 says

1. I think UL has a year foundation program for 17 year olds that guarantees LSE entrance for those who pass, but as far as I can tell it's either onsite in London or requires a UL-affiliated learning center, which doesn't seem to exist in the USA except for one LLC outfit on the East Coast. That could be a way around the High School dissimilarity problem.

Unfortunately, it requires being able to take the final exam, at a distance, off-campus, with minimal coaching, as the UL-affiliated centers are not in the US. So perhaps the way around that is a Coursera/YouTube/etc for those exact courses, like statistics or microeconomics, and be fully prepared for the final exams, more than a year before that 17th birthday. Then, they can actually go to London, during the winter, to review for the exams as they have tutoring/prep for that single month Q&A review session. But of course, make sure it's review and no new material.

thunderlips11 says

2. Are your friends basing the curriculum on any particular program? I'm looking to start investigating homeschool materials and want to check out some ideas on that front.

They're basing it on the notion of a well-rounded K-12 graduate but w/o the idea of the block schedule.

Thus, for languages, in place of a completely boring and useless set of in-class drills, they have 'em do the Pimsleur 90 lessons of French and then, do some immersion classes at the French Institute in Boston or go up to Quebec for some time.

Then, for math, sure, start w/ Khan, plus YouTube, but then, supplement with Kumon one-on-one tutoring.

For English Comp and specifically, Western & US History, this site, http://www.straighterline.com

has writing and history courses, along with math and some survey sciences. It's not perfect but for the most part, that'll all that a high schooler needs.

Then, the community college classes would include biology, chemistry, physics, microeconomics, & statistics because those courses are generally required for pre-heath care programs and could be used for London admissions, as well.

Thus, a person could be a US premed and still do a London degree, as the community college sciences will be used for the undergrad GPA.

Rin says

Thus, for languages, in place of a completely boring and useless set of in-class drills, they have 'em do the Pimsleur 90 lessons of French and then, do some immersion classes at the French Institute in Boston or go up to Quebec for some time.

So in one case, what happened to a kid, after the 1st 30 oral-only lessons was that she could speak beginning French, with very good pronunciation.

Then, when she opened up a textbook for the first time, and saw the actual writing, she was stunned, as the word pronunciations and arrangements were nothing like in English.

So the after seeing, 'how are you' and 'if you please', "comment allez-vous" "s'il vous plait", she never unconscious anglicized a French word or expression because her 1st memories of the language were in the native pronunciation. And that's what set her apart from ppl like us, who went through drills, anglicizing the words, half the time.

Then, it became a game of flipping that switch, the Anglo sound vs the French one. I've met plenty of HS students who'd never pulled that off, after 4 years of HS French.

On a side note, though important, all premed or pre-health care prerequisites need to be taken at a US school, like a community college, or else, the US medical schools can't use them to compute an undergrad science GPA.

And likewise, for the US Patent Agent exam, one will need to also get a stateside masters degree in some STEM area, after finishing the London BS. But think about this, an MS in a science is 1.5 years of tuition vs 4 years for an undergrad.

As for law, if one has a LLB from London Univ, one will need to get an LLM from a US school, to be able to sit for the bar exam. The LLM is a one year program which again, is cheaper than attending a US law school's JD program for a full three years.

Rin, is there a particular STEM degree that is better to hold as a patent agent?

Here's the website:

http://www.uspto.gov/ip/boards/oed/exam/OED_GRB.pdf

The Category A degrees are the following:

Biology
Pharmacology
Electrochemical Engineering
Biochemistry
Physics
Engineering Physics
Botany
Textile Technology
General Engineering
Computer Science
Aeronautical Engineering
Geological Engineering
Electronics Technology
Agricultural Engineering
Industrial Engineering
Food Technology
Biomedical Engineering
Mechanical Engineering
General Chemistry
Ceramic Engineering
Metallurgical Engineering
Marine Technology
Chemical Engineering
Mining Engineering
Microbiology
Civil Engineering
Nuclear Engineering
Molecular Biology
Computer Engineering
Petroleum Engineering
Organic Chemistry
Electrical Engineering

So the background is fairly generic, however, gaining some experience will be the tough part.

Rin, can't thank you enough for this information.

Nice finding an alternative track from the UK LLB to LLM to practising US Law, too.

thunderlips11 says

Nice finding an alternative track from the UK LLB to LLM to practising US Law, too.

But in the above case, one needs a broader career strategy than the typical high LSAT scorer.

For example, at the Univ of Chicago Law school (a top 5 program), many of the top 100 law firms routinely recruit from the first year student class for summer internships. Many of the subsequent job offers, result from these feeder programs. At the same time, graduates get elected for judicial clerkships and sometimes, defer getting started as a 1st year, to gain some experience/connections with justices.

If you use the London approach, despite the relative prestige of the program, one will not be among the 'select' who can pursue those highly competitive clerkships or top 100 law firm 1st year associate programs. Instead, a person will need to be able to garner his own experience and carve out a more independent career, with perhaps a senior placement, later on down the road, after having gained that experience.

Of course, in law, name recognition always matters so an experienced London grad, in the long run, will still have an advantage over a local grad, who didn't attend places like Chicago or Georgetown. Thus, it trumps any 2nd to 4th tier American school, regardless.

My impression of London law is that it's more of a political science-y a/o business-thinking program, for those who want to work in govt or private organizations.

Thus, if you want to get involved in a United Nations NGO or perhaps, a corporate counsel for a multi-national which works w/ govt agencies, then this London LLB may be a better degree to have, than to waste time/money on a US based BA/JD or BA/MBA. With one degree, the law and the management end are kinda both covered.

Of course, one still needs the US LLM to sit for the local bar.

Concerning the London School of Economics specifically, American high schoolers or homeschoolers should watch the youtube for a full college econometrics course...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/WK03XgoVsPM

Basically, if this course is not understandable, after a few passes, then don't apply for LSE, look for an easier program.

Carolyn C says

Does anyone have any idea how Marine biology majors are faring in the job market? My daughter loves the subject but I fear she will be unemployed when she graduates. She is an A student in a (mostly Asian/Middle Eastern) competitive public school system.

There are so many options in this field. A cousin of mine studies fish populations in the Delta. Also the many companies that pollute the bay and ocean have to do tests on the native fish. So, she could go to work for a major oil company (think extraction, leaks, etc.)

rufita11 says

Carolyn C says

Does anyone have any idea how Marine biology majors are faring in the job market? My daughter loves the subject but I fear she will be unemployed when she graduates. She is an A student in a (mostly Asian/Middle Eastern) competitive public school system.

There are so many options in this field. A cousin of mine studies fish populations in the Delta. Also the many companies that pollute the bay and ocean have to do tests on the native fish. So, she could go to work for a major oil company (think extraction, leaks, etc.)

What's more important here is that internship/CO-OP with Conoco-Philips than the actual degree itself. Thus, she could have studied geology, petroleum engineering, biochemistry, or what-have-you but that first parachute is what matters. In other words, flip the parameters and look at it from an employers pov.

----

Student A

Experience: Shell Corp, 1.5 years in oil exploration, toxicology, and marine impact studies. Operated equipment, collected and analyzed samples, performed maintenance. Started as intern, junior year of college.

Education: BS, Geochemistry (minored in Marine Biology), Univ of Colorado

----

Student B

Experience: University Lab, analyzed tissues of diseased sturgeons. Submitted report for senior thesis

Education: BS, Marine Biology, Univ of Colorado

----

In my above sample, Student A will have numerous 2nd interviews in petrochemical and water treatment companies, throughout the country. Student B, on the other hand, will more likely never get a call back unless those hiring managers are a friend/alumni of hers.

In my hypothetical example above, Student A's only problem will be with stupid HR types, trying to prevent his resume from seeing the right hiring managers.

For Student B, she's really depended upon some cronyism/nepotism to get her through the door.

Thus, Student A will be starting his new job as a real professional.

Because I've worked in those firms, where the spouse, the professional trainer, or the son of a someone in the firm got 'em the job. In the latter cases, no one respected them and it was clear that their talent a/o work ethic simply wasn't there.

It's much better to be Student A, spend the 1st six months working like hell, and gain one's co-workers' respect. Sure, in the end, some MBA jerk could still lay him off but at least, he'll leave with some new professional contacts and possible future opportunities.

Rin says

In other words, flip the parameters and look at it from an employers pov.

The problem is there are FAR more hopeful students than there are positions available.

In a parallel universe where the economy is booming yet available graduates of any caliber are rare student B will have no problem getting multiple lucrative offers from companies desperate for talent.

Of course Student B may get lucky and find the tissue analysis she used on those sturgeon are in demand by industries other than big oil (bioengineering, pharma, etc). She may also have have no interest in relocating to BFE where big oil typically wants its field personnel.

Rin says

he'll leave with some new professional contacts and possible future opportunities.

One would hope; however those contacts will have a limited shelf life, maybe 6 months at best.

New Renter says

booming yet available graduates of any caliber are rare student B will have no problem getting multiple lucrative offers from companies desperate for talent.

Of course Student B may get lucky and find the tissue analysis she used on those sturgeon are in demand by industries other than big oil (bioengineering, pharma, etc). She may also have have no interest in relocating to BFE where big oil typically wants its field personnel.

Problem is even when the economy is booming, it's still rare for a student B to find a job.

And as for 1st breakout job, everyone has to move. Many persons I knew, didn't find that "real deal" job near their hometowns. Usually, they move back home, in 2 to 5 years.

New Renter says

One would hope; however those contacts will have a limited shelf life, maybe 6 months at best.

I've found that when one gets into a new firm, usually, 2 or 3 follow, from the same originating firm. And then, since these are seasoned persons, it's not the same as the son or spouse situation, which causes the strife in the new company.

New Renter says

Of course Student B may get lucky and find the tissue analysis she used on those sturgeon are in demand by industries other than big oil (bioengineering, pharma, etc)

On the above, here's an addendum.

This is a hypothetical student C, who's working at her university lab for a fictitious Dr Joe Williams, a renown expert on toxicology and marine systems. Many national labs, private orgs, and corporations invite him for seminars, consulting work, etc.

With the above stated, student C's resume looks like the following ...

---

Student C

Experience: The Williams Group/Univ of Co, analyzed tissues of diseased sturgeons. Submitted report for senior thesis.

Education: BS, Marine Biology, Univ of Colorado

---

Now, the above person is basically applying, as an experienced R&D technician, from a renown scholar in her field of study. Thus, she'll get a slew of 2nd interviews, but it'll be from some highly select depts out there. The student A, on the other hand, will be able to place himself, into more generic positions and in a more broad manner, thus maximizing his parachute.

Student B's position, however, not being associated with Williams, remains in the same boat.

Rin,

One factor you have yet to address. How hot are A,B and C? How will a fugly A fare against a smokin' hottie B?

New Renter says

Rin,

One factor you have yet to address. How hot are A,B and C? How will a fugly A fare against a smokin' hottie B?

Think sales, a hot 'B', once she sends a photo pic to a sales exec, chances are, she'll get the job once she can pass the BS artistry interview.

A fugly 'A', nope! That resume better go to R&D a/o back office vis-a-vis production support. But still, with proper exercise and some makeover, many fuglies can actually become a 5+, and thus, also be able to transition into sales.

And I always recommend Americans to laterally move from R&D to sales/consulting because R&D is always prone towards offshoring and layoffs, whereas ppl who can close deals seem to always be in demand.

Our receptionist, though not a perfect 9 or 10 model, is somewhere nearing a 7, while at the same time, has that work ethic of an engineer and thus, she's a perfect poster child of what the firm represents to the clients.

Ok ppl, I put a lot of thought into this thread.

Any more comments?

Once again Rin, I thank you and greatly appreciate this thread.

thunderlips11 says

Once again Rin, I thank you and greatly appreciate this thread.

One more point, if your kids are interested in LSE ... they might as well, learn the material for the Economics major, while in HS.

Though my friends are into the whole well rounded, K-12 education, with languages & so-forth, in reality, now that I've been working for over a decade, I don't see many well-rounded ppl in the real world.

Thus, if let's say having the French or Chinese conversational fluency or writing that great American essay, like an Emerson, isn't all that important, then perhaps, it's better to use that time, simply to ready oneself for the London final exams.

I'm writing here, to take a break from all the threads about seeing esc*rts, in place of having a relationship.

Thus, as I'd stated in those threads, balance is the key.

Rin says

I'm writing here, to take a break from all the threads about seeing esc*rts, in place of having a relationship.

Thus, as I'd stated in those threads, balance is the key.

One hot escort in each hand. How would you balance them in bed?

Strategist says

One hot escort in each hand. How would you balance them in bed?

No, let's keep this one about education. We can continue to talk about esc*rts on the other ones.

I'm actually trying to make a point about the Renaissance man and that's that the R-man is not one dimensional.

Rin says

given the unusual level of cyberbullying

it's amazing how far we are willing to contort basic concepts for the benefit of big business.

the social networks CREATED this environment of potential abuse and are not held accountable? instead we move this into municipal courts and create a new crime 'cyberbullying', but WE MUST at ALL COSTS keep the social network spam machines intact.

FACT: social networks created this notion of 'safe harbor' and gave the web site owner a free pass for whatever content shows up on thier site. This created two things 1) loads of dumb fucking websites with useless material posted by bored non-experts in everything 2) supposed great advertising revenue from penis enlargement ads.

in a normal universe, the domain owner is liable for what gets posted on their site. Cyberbullying my ass, Facebook is liable for hosting defamatory material.

Unlike housing, college is optional.

The Original Bankster says

in a normal universe, the domain owner is liable for what gets posted on their site. Cyberbullying my ass, Facebook is liable for hosting defamatory material.

Regardless of the alpha or omega of the situation, it doesn't change the idea that it's better for someone to learn at home, given the sheer volume of available education content online vs being in a hostile situation/environment like many of today's schools.

Education ought to be the sole responsibility of the parents.

Rin says

Regardless of the alpha or omega of the situation, it doesn't change the idea that it's better for someone to learn to home, given the sheer volume of available education content online vs being in a hostile situation/environment like many of today's schools.

All environments can be hostile. Kids should be taught to deal with adversity.

Peter P says

All environments can be hostile. Kids should be taught to deal with adversity.

If two adults start punching one another, someone's getting charged for assault & battery. And likewise, if an adult is stalking and harassing another adult, lawsuits will be coming.

In contrast, none of that stuff happens with kids and thus, regular and cyber bullying go on, and the purpose of school is to get a piece of paper which tells the world that one's ready to be employed.

Thus, I'd take the kids out of school. I know a bunch of parents who already have.

I support the idea of home schooling and I no longer think public education beyond grade 6 pays dividends.

I am against bullying but kids cannot be too sheltered either.

Peter P says

Kids should be taught to deal with adversity.

Like hiring a bigger bully.

New Renter says

Peter P says

Kids should be taught to deal with adversity.

Like hiring a bigger bully.

Like being a teacher's pet? Doesn't work. What if the bigger bully (the teacher) isn't around. Now it's good to learn some Machiavellian tricks. :-)

John Bailo says

Sorry, but many areas around colleges which used to be cheap are now skyrocketing because of "urban density". And they kick the kids out of dorms after freshman year.

yep, they just built a new law school in downtown phoenix... propertyPrice++

I got my smile and I got my got my Nikon Camera, and I like to take a photograph.
So Mama please don't take my Kodachrome away, oh yeah!