patrick.net

errc says

Call me old school, but to me, retirement means death

New Renter said "Most retired people I know find themselves busier in retirement than when they wor Keeping busy is not a problem."

--------------------

I didn't say that keeping busy, is a problem. I can dream up infinite better things to do with my time, rather than trade it for dollars

What I meant, was that the word 'retire', by definition, meant to die. I wager to an edvard type, retirement means - 'work your entire life away, so that you'll have enough markers on past labor, to force others to take care of you while you grind out death, in a body that's past its expiration date.' And hey, the edvard type will have paid north of half a million $ to private "health" "insurers", so he will have the comfort of knowing that. And hopefully, easy access to lots of drugs.

It all sounds like death to me. If your trading all your quality years, for what someone else has told you, is the safe and surefire path to a senior citizen life, the next step above the catfood eaters. Well then, you're as good as dead already

edvard2 says

Either way, this site and others sometimes shocks me in how little people seem to really care, know, or comprehend what retirement is all about as well as its importance. being old and poor is NOT a good thing.

I'm not ignorant to retirement. I save 50% of my take home, a 401k account, precious metals, and a comfortable savings account. My vehicles are paid off and no loans of any sort. My plan is not to piss away all that I have in pursuit of a dream, but to take a chance, to do something I enjoy - that I am already making a few k per month with minimal effort.

The risk appears on the low side honestly. Figure if it fails, and I have to go back to the hamster wheel - even with a large paycut, I'm good.

New Renter says

edvard2 says

Lastly, I am not sure what you do for a living, but if its in tech, well tech moves so fast that a year spent away from it can mean a return to a job market where your skills are obsolete.

6+ months is considered obsolete.

Disagree. Although I'm not a programmer.

New Renter says

Their paying clients are the companies who immediately toss any resume with a gap. The only help they will provide is how to creatively fill that gap.

You don't want to work for those companies anyway...

The only useful quantitative measure on a resume is the number of pages. Anything more than two is highly suspicious. ANY kind of life accomplishments can be described in one page or less.

Qualitatively, how a person chooses to present himself/herself is more telling than what is being presented.

That said, the best hires tend to be referrals by other good hires.

Peter P says

If you need to count you don't have enough to retire.

Counting what you need is better than having no plan at all...errc says

What I meant, was that the word 'retire', by definition, meant to die. I wager to an edvard type, retirement means - 'work your entire life away, so that you'll have enough markers on past labor, to force others to take care of you while you grind out death, in a body that's past its expiration date.' And hey, the edvard type will have paid north of half a million $ to private "health" "insurers", so he will have the comfort of knowing that. And hopefully, easy access to lots of drugs.

It all sounds like death to me. If your trading all your quality years, for what someone else has told you, is the safe and surefire path to a senior citizen life, the next step above the catfood eaters. Well then, you're as good as dead already

You must have a very strange opinion of what retirement must be like. I volunteer on weekends at a local museum and 90% of the guys there are in their 70's and 80's. One of them just got back from a 1 month trip from France. Another took a trip to Rio about 6 months ago. The same guy who went to France built another house in Portland OR. One of the guys has a vintage VW bus and he and his Wife are taking off on a 10,000 mile round trip tour of the West. Both are around 80.

These guys have been retired for decades. Yet they are busier than me. They are more active than most people half their age. But you want to know why they can do and have been dong what they do for years and years? They were smart with their money. They saved. They retired by the time their were in their 60's. What's more most of them LOVED their jobs. Ironically the club I am in concerns preserving the industry they all retired from.

But everyone can do what they want to do. I meant what I said too: Those who do not save won't be getting one penny from me if they wind up totally broke and destitute when they get to be near or at retirement age. If some want to play, go for it. But don't expect any sympathy for those who were responsible and saved.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

Are you guys kidding? I have been my own boss for 25 years. You get no benefits....no paid vacation.....you pay double the payroll tax....no sick leave....and you don't work 9 -5 because you are on call 24/7.

The other side is always greener.

Having said that, I will still NEVER EVER work for a boss. :)

Ahhh, but remember, your wife gives you an allowance!!!

Oh God...how can I forget. Taco Bell for lunch again.
My dog eats better. :(

joshuatrio says

I'm not ignorant to retirement. I save 50% of my take home, a 401k account, precious metals, and a comfortable savings account. My vehicles are paid off and no loans of any sort. My plan is not to piss away all that I have in pursuit of a dream, but to take a chance, to do something I enjoy - that I am already making a few k per month with minimal effort.

The real risk is that you share this world with other retirements with little assets. I wonder what that political landscape will be when you hit 65.

IMO it is better to really live and thrive. Or fail. It does not matter.

Life is a tragedy. There is no way around it. The question is, are you enjoying the show?

errc says

I didn't say that keeping busy, is a problem. I can dream up infinite better things to do with my time, rather than trade it for dollars

Ditto.

errc says

If your trading all your quality years, for what someone else has told you, is the safe and surefire path to a senior citizen life, the next step above the catfood eaters. Well then, you're as good as dead already

Great point.

Another thing that concerns me about office life is that in most office environments, people look miserable, bored, tired. Common comments are "I have x years till retirement." It bothers me how many people count down that "retirement clock" - it's as if they have nothing worth living for.

joshuatrio says

New Renter says

edvard2 says

Lastly, I am not sure what you do for a living, but if its in tech, well tech moves so fast that a year spent away from it can mean a return to a job market where your skills are obsolete.

6+ months is considered obsolete.

Disagree. Although I'm not a programmer.

Neither am I but I am in tech.

YMMV of course

joshuatrio says

I save 50% of my take home, a 401k account, precious metals, and a comfortable savings account. My vehicles are paid off and no loans of any sort. My plan is not to piss away all that I have in pursuit of a dream, but to take a chance, to do something I enjoy - that I am already making a few k per month with minimal effort.

Its all up to you. We too saved a lot of our incomes. We rented with other housemates for a decade. Then we bought a house and still save a lot of our income. As others have said and as I discovered, when you're unemployed you would be amazed how much money you'll spend that you never thought of when employed. That's totally what I experienced. Prior to being laid off I never thought about gas, food, and basics like that. When you're laid off suddenly its like- holy shit! Gas is $4 a gallon! Keep in mind that I as mentioned- live very frugally. I was also on unemployment. I still wound up using up around $6,000 in savings for the 4 months I was out of work and all I did was stick around the house looking for another job.

I guess I'm being the super cautious one here. The experiences I've had gave me a different perspective about having a job period.

Peter P says

New Renter says

Their paying clients are the companies who immediately toss any resume with a gap. The only help they will provide is how to creatively fill that gap.

You don't want to work for those companies anyway...

Those companies are everywhere, or at least they share an HR doctrine.

joshuatrio says

It bothers me how many people count down that "retirement clock" - it's as if they have nothing worth living for.

The stockroom guy at my university had one of those in his office. If you stopped him in the hallway and asked he could tell you off the top of his head how long to the hour until his day would come.

The math behind software has not changed much for decades. I am sure computer scientists in the 70's would understand things like Ruby on Rails right away. They did not use them simply because of other technological constraints (like CPU/IO/network speed and disk space).

A genuine intellectual curiosity is infinitely more valuable than "being current."

There are just too many junk programmers out there. Hiring them is like asking a house-painter to do a mural.

New Renter says

Those companies are everywhere, or at least they share an HR doctrine.

Perhaps it is prudent not to work for a company large enough to have an HR department.

Peter P says

The math behind software has not changed much for decades. I am sure computer scientists in the 70's would understand things like Ruby on Rails right away. They did not use them simply because of other technological constraints (like CPU/IO/network speed and disk space).

A genuine intellectual curiosity is infinitely more valuable than "being current."

There are just too many junk programmers out there. Hiring them is like asking a house-painter to do a mural.

That's meaningless. Sure- anyone who is decent at code should "theoretically" understand programming language from a rudimentary level. But that's not what companies want. They don't want someone who is unfamiliar with the latest OS, standards, UI, and other intricacies of a given program and then give them time to "catch up". No. You should be expected to be totally able to walk in and start working immediately.

I'm not even a programmer. I'm a designer and the same is true with what I do. Sure- someone who learned Photoshop back in the 90's when it came out will know the basics of that program and what exists today will bear some similarities. But what is demanded of today's designers not only in knowing the latest versions of the slew of programs they need to use but the ever-changing design trends which are needed. 4 years ago Desktop was still king. Today you had better know how to design for responsive desktops and mobile. The change is rapid. If you leave for even a year you had better get your crap together and learn what you've missed because what I knew last year is now totally useless for today's requirements.

edvard2 says

But that's not what companies want. They don't want someone who is unfamiliar with the latest OS, standards, UI, and other intricacies of a given program and then give them time to "catch up".

That is not my experience in multiple companies.

I once even got a job offer to program in a language with which I had ZERO experience.

komputodo says

As far as personal "growth" goes, I don't even know what that word means. Just one of those mainstream filler words that's used when you don't know what to say.

There are many aspects of growth...

Here is my favorite...

I find out I know LESS every day.

edvard2 says

You should be expected to be totally able to walk in and start working immediately.

Again this is a reflection of the particulars of the specific labor market. If labor is tight employers will be lenient on the job requirements and allow the employee to catch up. If the market is swimming with applicants employers can be very choosy and select only employees who have a 110% fit to the job to be done.

edvard2 says

But everyone can do what they want to do. I meant what I said too: Those who do not save won't be getting one penny from me if they wind up totally broke and destitute when they get to be near or at retirement age. If some want to play, go for it. But don't expect any sympathy for those who were responsible and saved.

Of those people how many are living on pensions no longer available to current employees? How about the benefit of incredibly low housing purchase prices with 3 decades of dropping interest rates to follow? There is also the incredible stock market performance today's retirees had the benefit of.

komputodo says

They feel they need to trade their quality years for money because in the US, old people without money have no redeeming value.

So you should try to get rich while you are still young.

And no, if you have to fly commercial you are not rich.

You have a better chance making it doing what you love.

komputodo says

And lastly, they need that extra mil for the private room at the hospital where they are going to live out their last 6 months trying the latest, most expensive experimental drugs money can buy.

I think it is better to "buy" an afterlife at that stage. ;-)

komputodo says

To make a long story short probably less than .01% of the population has the stones to walk away from their "imagined security" and be their own master.

As far as personal "growth" goes, I don't even know what that word means. Just one of those mainstream filler words that's used when you don't know what to say.

Then again, I know hordes of people who "had the stones" to walk off the job, go out and either start some dreamy business or run off to the desert to play the flute or whatever. Most of them are poor and miserable as a result. So if the comment was about people having the balls to quit and do whatever I can't say I'm totally in awe or jealous.Peter P says

That is not my experience in multiple companies.

All I can tell you is that as far as today's market you had better know your shit and not expect to have the leisure to have to learn whatever it is you need to do for that job. That has totally been my experience.

Anyway.... Here are my closing thoughts on this. Perhaps many of you graduated from college, got jobs and things were all happy days. When I graduated the economy was in the shitter. The only jobs were basically jobs at big box stores and so on. So that's what I did. I made $8 an hour. Try and live in the most expensive metro in the US off that. I did. But anyway, that sucked. Worrying about money sucks because at the time every month was a struggle.

When I finally made it out of that situation and started doing better I can guarantee that I appreciated the money a whole hell of a lot more than those kids who found good jobs right out of school. So I'll be honest: When I hear of people just wanting to hop skip and jump out of some cushy job my immediate and perhaps unfair opinion is there's a lot of spoiled-rotten folks who might not know what its like to make minimum wage for a living and to have to dig under the cushions for laundry change.

The thing is that right now the economy is basically in yet another bubble: times are great and everything if all hunky-dory. But that can and will likely all change. I've been through 3 recessions so far and they all sucked. I see that the OP says he's 24. In other words too young to have really experienced that. In 2008 that would make him what?- like 18? But anyway, anyone who has been around long enough should really count inevitable recessions as part of the future. Maybe times are great now but what are ya' gonna' do when the next recession hits? You see, its not just retirement that needs to be saved for but these recessions which ultimately translates to a few years of lean times between the boom times.

I suppose I've spouted off enough about this. People are free to what they want to do. maybe we should all just quit our jobs and run off to the desert and learn to play the flute...

Oh, I have seen layoffs in my office. It happened soon after I joined. The second day, I told my boss that the layoff was overrated because the parking lot was still too full.

komputodo says

For all the people that took the safe secure route in life with a steady job and pension.

If they made a movie of your life, would anybody watch it?

I love The Office.

edvard2 says

I see that the OP says he's 24.

He is? And he's making a 6 figure income?

Why would you want to leave that?

New Renter says

edvard2 says

I see that the OP says he's 24.

He is? And he's making a 6 figure income?

Why would you want to leave that?

Because one can never get rich on a 6, 7 or even 8-figure income?

Perhaps his dream is even bigger than having lots of money?

The greatest tragedy in life is aiming too low.

komputodo says

For all the people that took the safe secure route in life with a steady job and pension.

If they made a movie of your life, would anybody watch it?

Hell yeah! I guess that must mean that my life is really exciting, not to mention safe and secure.

komputodo says

Or don't live in the US where everyone is obsessed with money and status.

There are worse places in the world in this regard. Have you been to China?

I suspect that countries with good social services may collapse unless they are blessed with abundant natural resources.

The game of life is about domination. Call it money or something else, there is no free lunch.

Peter P says

Because one can never get rich on a 6, 7 or even 8-figure income?

If he is 24 and making over $100k he needs to kiss his lucky stars, especially if its at a job that allows him to have a family AND enough free time to run a business on the side.

Most people I know in my field almost twice his age are JUST making that. And that's after the better part of a decade of poverty line academic servitude.

STFU and get back to work already!

New Renter says

Peter P says

Because one can never get rich on a 6, 7 or even 8-figure income?

If he is 24 and making over $100k he needs to kiss his lucky stars, especially if its at a job that allows him to have a family AND enough free time to run a business on the side.

Most people I know in my field almost twice his age are JUST making that. And that's after the better part of a decade of poverty line academic servitude.

STFU and get back to work already!

Or maybe one can push his luck further? :-)

The important thing to know is that failure is a real possibility. And that is okay.

If you do not fail often you are not pushing hard enough.

I thought he said he is 29

errc says

I thought he said he is 29

24, 29 anything under 45 its all the same.

I guess I just find this whole topic somewhat interesting. There seems to be this generic consensus that any and all jobs had at a corporation or otherwise some place of employment that is owned by someone else must surely suck and that the road to happiness and excitement is to quit and do your own thing.

My Dad does this actually. But its not like its all paradise and easy. Just like my job he has good days and bad. Just like me he too has responsibilities. Just like me he takes vacations to "get away" for awhile. Like me he also has hobbys, friends, and other extracurricular activities he partakes in after the work is done.

I guess what I'm saying is that hey- if your job sucks then there's better ones out there. There is such a thing as going to a 9-5 job and having a fun, fulfilling and exciting life at the same time. Nobody wrote some rule that says you can't.

But ultimately how one feels about their situation and how things work out for them is all up to them, their thought process and their attitude. That's really all there is to it.

errc says

I thought he said he is 29

He said somewhere but that text disappeared.

Peter P says

Or maybe one can push his luck further? :-)

The important thing to know is that failure is a real possibility. And that is okay.

If you do not fail often you are not pushing hard enough.

Oh God, spare us the platitudes!

This guy failed. Was that OK? Should he have tried harder?

joshuatrio says

Strategist says

1. How old are you?

If you decide to ever go back to a job your age could get in the way.

2. How old are the kids?

If you plan on traveling their school schedule will restrict you.

3. Do you own your home with a mortgage?

You have an obligation to consider.

4. What about health benefits?

Your expenses have just shot up. I sense your wife does not work full time.

Build up your business as much as possible and then quit, even if you have to put in 80 hours.

Good luck.

1) 29

2) 3,4

3) No. Rent

4) Currently insured. This is something I've thought about.

29

SoftShell says

I'm freaked out by your avatar....

I swear to god i didn't take your potato chips!

turtledove says

it won't have the appearance of some kind of breakdown.

For you, anything. Consider it gone.

New Renter says

If he is making that kind of money at 29 he will likely be considered expendable should there be a change in management. He may very well have a hell of a time finding a similar "high paying" job again despite any rosy talk of a booming economy as are the people I mentioned previously(obviously YMMV).

I thought low-6 is quite standard for a 29-year-old in tech.

The economy is both white-hot AND gloomy at the same time. It is good to be mobile and adaptable.

New Renter says

Here is the other possibility. If he is making that kind of money at 29 he will likely be considered expendable should there be a change in management. He may very well have a hell of a time finding a similar "high paying" job again despite any rosy talk of a

That's actually a VERY important thing to consider. In my industry you're lucky to see anyone over the age of 45 and the majority are probably in their 20's-30's. There are a lot of people who by the time they get into their 50's suddenly have one hell of a time getting another job. So the bottom line is make the good money while you can. At this point I consider myself roughly 60% through the career I'm in. But by the time I hit my late 40's I should be good financially and could take some sort of stupid job just to pay the gas and so forth.

Peter P says

I thought low-6 is quite standard for a 29-year-old in tech.

Depends on the tech.

Biotech you're looking at half that unless you are Ph.D.

In that case its 1/6th to 1/3 of that depending on whether you are a GTA or a post doc.

Peter P says

New Renter says

edvard2 says

I see that the OP says he's 24.

He is? And he's making a 6 figure income?

Why would you want to leave that?

Because one can never get rich on a 6, 7 or even 8-figure income?

Perhaps his dream is even bigger than having lots of money?

The greatest tragedy in life is aiming too low.

That's pretty much it. It's not about money. I'm just as happy at 100k, as I was at 60 and 70k. We live pretty frugally, and know how to save, so even if I failed and took a 50% cut, it really wouldn't affect my lifestyle much.

New Renter says

Here is the other possibility. If he is making that kind of money at 29 he will likely be considered expendable should there be a change in management. He may very well have a hell of a time finding a similar "high paying" job again despite any rosy talk of a booming economy as are the people I mentioned previously(obviously YMMV).

I'm not really concerned about finding another job. I've got a pretty diverse IT background, with technical and management experience - as well as a few high level vendor certs that help out with salary.

edvard2 says

New Renter says

Here is the other possibility. If he is making that kind of money at 29 he will likely be considered expendable should there be a change in management. He may very well have a hell of a time finding a similar "high paying" job again despite any rosy talk of a

That's actually a VERY important thing to consider. In my industry you're lucky to see anyone over the age of 45 and the majority are probably in their 20's-30's. There are a lot of people who by the time they get into their 50's suddenly have one hell of a time getting another job.

I would count on it!