patrick.net

monkframe says

I have to say I don't understand the premise of this thread, since the most recent scientific evidence points to the fact that we are one species, not a bunch of "races."

Given a million more years with no interracial breeding we would all have evolved into completely different animals. But with the world getting smaller, and interracial breeding expanding, we will all have descendants of the same human race.
Eventually, who is smarter, superior, and prettier will make no difference.

bgamall4 says

Strategist says

Hamas does not want a 2 state solution. They want to exterminate Jews and Israel.

Wrong again. Hamas has called for a two state solution. That is the LEAST Israel MUST DO.

Then, after that there is still ongoing negotiations about the Palestinian claims on the land.

You have not done your homework. Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Israel is willing to go for a 2 state solution, which is why the gave up Gaza in exchange for peace. What did they get? suicide bombers.

monkframe says

scientific evidence points to the fact that we are one species, not a bunch of "races."

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/50193050eab8eaa85a00002b/early-google-employees.jpg

My guess is Bgamall4 would hate zionists even if Israel did not exist. His persona reminds me of germany before WW2.

Excellent rational by Sam Harris on why secularists need to support Israel-
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Obligatory:

Yes! You have exposed me as a government recruit! I mean... Israel is paying me. How perceptive of you.
In fact I would love to get a second income from any government source.
Reason i started my comments with you is because I come to this site to read about the housing market and you keep on bringing up this jewish conspiracy filth. Go to Stormfront to make your point.

bgamall4 says

Portal says

Excellent rational by Sam Harris on why secularists need to support Israel-

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

You made 5 comments on this site and you immediately slander me. Are you a government recruit? Or is Israel paying you?

What are your rambling about? bgamall4 says

You are slandering me. Stormfront is racist and anti Semitic. I am not. I liked Soap, by Susan Harris, but her son is lost, and confused. Smart, but still probably a closet Zionist.

I'll pass on reading your book. Here is the one review from amazon-
"This book was quite disjointed and very poorly written. The author needs to learn how to organize his thoughts and write coherent paragraphs that include topic sentences followed by support sentences. Moreover, he should have explained terminology such as Basel 2, MERS, Alt-A loans and so forth. Also, even though I happen to agree with his main premises, he failed to offer adequate support for his claims."bgamall4 says

And here is the point, Portal, the scamsters who orchestrated the housing debacle are associated with the people who seek world domination. The bankers and the UK and US and the neocons are all on the same page, Portal. I have proved it in my ebook, Wicked Zionism. You should read it.

Bellingham Bill says

Obligatory:

Strategist says

Gary, are going to hell.

there is a special place in hell for Gary, he gets to be one of the 72 virgins that suicide bombers are promised.

Debate you on what? You never made an actual argument!

If I need to read your book to debate you... then I think you are the one that is trolling.
bgamall4 says

That comment is trollish. For one thing, you didn't debate your slander of me, just made the comment of a troll instead. I have posted thousands of messages on this board and you are a jerk with only 6 comments.

Portal says

My guess is Bgamall4 would hate zionists even if Israel did not exist. His persona reminds me of germany before WW2.

I think he would hate Zionists, even if Zionists did not exist.

It is more cultural than race. Black people in the UK look and feel differently from those in the US.

Peter P says

It is more cultural than race. Black people in the UK look and feel differently from those in the US.

youre behind the times, this old chestnut is no longer accepted due to huge amounts of muslim blacks emigrating to UK. the few blacks here and there up until the 80s sure were a nice little decoration for the brits to prove they weren't racist.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/nhzs_7RLgKQ

But I have a man-crush on Idris Elba.

its pretty simple really

Whites are wealth creators, planners, rationers, rearers of children, builders, writers, law makers

Blacks consume resources, violent, reproduce like rabbits, do not take responsibility for their children, have no sense of ethics or justice and blame all their problems on white people.

other groups like hispanics and asians are at varying points in the spectrum- some Asian groups are as intelligent as whites, such as Japanese- but I personally don't envy the Japanese one bit - but sometimes they are interesting.

bgamall4 says

Dan8267 says

Sure, you never came out and directly said those words, but like a typical lawyer, you implied it. You meant blacks.

I agree, that is how it came across to me, Dan. He is a racist, IMO. But then, I made the case in another thread that all Zionists are racist.

It's really bad when a racist like bgamall4 is like "damn, you're way too racist". It's like if Hitler said to you, "Don't you think you're being a bit hard on the Jews?". Or Michael Jackson saying, "Isn't he a bit too young for you?". Or R Kelly saying, "You really shouldn't pee on that.".

Let's set aside the race issue, let's look at the Distance from Equator within Europe: even the southern Europeans are selected by local females for Don Juan behavior instead of the preference for more industrious types in Northern Europe in order to ensure the survival of her offsprings. That's all within the same race of "Caucasians."

Another issue is "cross-over": "blacks" in the US have gotten a lot of lighter in skin color over the past 300-400 years, and many have crossed over to self-identify as "whites" after moving. It is estimated that the majority of "whites" in the US actually have at least one black person among their ancestors.

Now think about that for a moment. If we have 100 blue people to begin with, then each year the most intelligent among them is moved out of the group, replaced by one that is of exactly the average intelligence of the remaining 99. What do you think will happen to the average intelligence of the group after 300-400 iterations?

It's the same effect as the most kinetic molecules evaporate and reduce the water temperature in an open container.

the problem with the blacks in the US is that they are the offspring of TWO undesirable factors:

1) slaves who were bred for low intelligence and strong physical constitution

2) the mixing was not due to intermarriage but rather RAPE.

Most Africans today who come to the US do not get along with Basketball-Americans. I really predict that one of these days the tensions will get so bad and our political system will be so broken that some will actually begin to call for their extermination of sterilization. Do you have any idea how much these people cost Americans?

and the culture is starting to bleed out into white groups. Kids listening to rap music and imitating what they see on TV. Yes, this is YOUR kids- this is a white-middle class phenomenon. White girls are starting to behave like blacks, single mothers, STDs - you name it.

The Original Bankster says

have no sense of ethics or justice and blame all their problems on...

I find this contradictory. Those who have no sense of ethics do not blame because moral statements would be meaningless.

Peter P says

The distance-from-equator effect is very real. Warm-climate people are simply less motivated. It is not about intelligence.

Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the Noon Day Sun.

Peter P says

It is more cultural than race. Black people in the UK look and feel differently from those in the US.

That's because they are different. Blacks in US have some white in them because they have been here a long time, and white slave masters had their way with them at will.
The Blacks in Britain are recent arrivals, and there still hold on to some of their original culture. They clearly did not go through the pain that American Blacks went through.

The Original Bankster says

2) the mixing was not due to intermarriage but rather RAPE.

Not anymore.

RE: slavery

Many cultures went through slavery at some point in history. Judaism and Christianity were born out of slavery.

The Jews were slaves in Egypt. Yet they have been culturally superior. It is hard to deny that Judaism is a testament to the strength of the human spirit.

So I don't know what TOS is trying to say.

GARY- youre not going to Heaven or the Good Rock Candy mountain or whatever other dumb shit delusion youve worked into your post-retirement brain in an attempt to make yourself feel better about your failure life.

go to hell, stop blaming jews for your problems, and try medication of some kind.

Dan8267 says

It's not like there's a centuries-old Palestinian people who happen to occupy the land where Israel is located.

Again, the genetic research shows that the Palestinians are the people who inhabited that land. I'm not sure why you're engaging in fact-denial here. In addition, the research shows that many Muslim Palestinians are descendants of Jewish or Christian ancestors (and other people) who lived in the same place. So yes, there definitely are centuries-old people who have lived there.

Dan8267 says

Hell, if the Jews never immigrated to the Middle East, there would be no Palestinian people or movement for a Palestinian state.

You're revising some history here, once again. The area has been known as Palestine since before the Common Era, and is even mentioned in the bible as such (by the root word for Palestine). There are references throughout the period to Palestine after that, and certainly in the Byzantine period, it was known as Palestine too. In addition, even before Israel was created, it was governed as the Mandate of Palestine by the British since 1920 and was Ottoman before that.

There would be no Palestinian movement if Israel hadn't been created because the area would have stayed Palestine. That seems pretty obvious.

In addition, there were Jews in Palestine before Israel was created by partition.

Not sure if you're trolling or if you're just as ridiculous a Zionist as bgamall4 is an anti-Zionist. You're really just making stuff up now and not saying anything consistent with the factual record.

ok Jordan was called what before 'the common era'?

why do we not question these other countries existence?

for one simple reason- Israel does not have a muslim majority and they literally do this everywhere on earth.

oh yes! let's give gary the permanent pulpit because he has mastered the art of sactimonious wining.

OHH I LOVE JESUS- but i hate jews.

OHH I LOVE BLACK PEOPLE- but dont live near any or are related to any, god forbid

OHH WORLD PEACE! - can't we just give Hamas one more chance to prove themselves?

GARY SHUT YOUR STUPID MOUTH. yes- your worst fear is true- you are a retiree who is 100% useless to society and we're all waiting for you to die. get off the god damn internet.

Enlighten us on how whites are "controlled' by zionists. This is starting to get interesting.
bgamall4 says

Whites are controlled by Zionists but they don't know it. The Zionists are some white, and some Jewish but they control the rest of the whites and they have no clue. Donald Sterling was a Zionist and said Israel treats blacks bad and he saw no problem with it.

Portal says

Enlighten us on how whites are "controlled' by zionists. This is starting to get interesting.

Gary is someone who has a lot of time, no purpose other than making himself feel like a good little boy who is getting an awesome kick ass afterlife, and seems really intent on reaching people on this forum. in other words A LUNATIC.

At work... I'll get to debunking this later.
bgamall4 says

I reserve the right to disagree with these people and the two links. I am just pointing out that it is possible to see the inroads of Zionism upon the lives of Americans. There are many political avenues Zionists have used to control the population of the USA.

corntrollio says

So yes, there definitely are centuries-old people who have lived there.

Yes, but they were not a Palestine people with a single culture called Palestine.

Again, I have no skin in the game, so I'm just going by the recorded history. If you want a Palestinian state and you believe that it will only happen if people there is an ancient line of Palestinian people, then of course you won't accept that the later premise is a lie. All I can say is that the later premise is not necessary or even helpful. Whether or not a Palestinian state should exist has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there is a long-lost Palestinian state.

I repeat: I have no objection to a Palestinian state. But I don't have to accept the lie that the there has ever been a Palestinian people before 1945. This is just a fact, like it or not.

Quite frankly, those who want a Palestinian state should embrace the truth as well, as they are far less likely to get it if it is based on a lie that everyone already knows is a lie.

Here's the history from yet another source.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/O7ByJb7QQ9U

I don't write history, but I do acknowledge it.

corntrollio says

The area has been known as Palestine since before the Common Era, and is even mentioned in the bible as such (by the root word for Palestine).

The Palestine of the Bible has nothing to do with modern Palestines. National borders have been redrawn many times over the century in that area. Many nation-states and cultures have risen and fallen. It is completely meaningless to make such a connection between the two.

And again, even if there was such a connection, it would provide no more justification for a Palestinian state than America claiming territory in all of Africa because Americans, like all people, can trace their ancestry to Africa. The lie of a Palestine culture DOES NOT JUSTIFY a Palestinian state.

And you don't need that lie to justify a Palestinian state. The only justification for a Palestinian state is that lots of people want it. And that should be enough justification in itself. So if you want me to support the Palestinian state, you have to acknowledge that this and only this is the justification for that state.

corntrollio says

Not sure if you're trolling or if you're just as ridiculous a Zionist as bgamall4 is an anti-Zionist. You're really just making stuff up now and not saying anything consistent with the factual record.

If you think that, just look at the videos I posted. Trolling is not expressing a point-of-view you don't like. The facts are

1. Both sides have committed atrocities.
2. Neither side can live with the other.
3. This whole mess is caused by the stupid religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And they are all false religions that have cause far more problems than they are worth.
4. There is nothing holy or supernatural about the land in the Middle East. Human beings are just stupid sometimes and obsess over things that don't matter.
5. The cheapest, least violent, and most effective solution is to
- First move Israel, dirt and all, to a new location far away from the Middle East.
- Take part of Saudi Arabia near where Israel was and create a Palestinian state or several as you know different groups will be fighting for power of that state.

And that's the only way this stupid problem is going to be solved.

Finally, anyone who thinks that either side is 100% right is a god-damn bigot. Any objective person would be disgusted by both sides.

I guess it takes being an atheist to be objective on this subject matter.

Christ, even Kirk got this right. Slightly different subject, but same damn thing.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/vi7QQ5pO7_A

Dan8267 says

The lie of a Palestine culture DOES NOT JUSTIFY a Palestinian state.

There are people who lived there for centuries who got displaced, yes or no? What people were they if they weren't Palestinian? I'd again point out that other Arabs aren't embracing them either. Again, this is the "there are no Mexicans in Texas" argument -- complete nonsense.

Dan8267 says

Again, I have no skin in the game, so I'm just going by the recorded history.

Clearly you do have skin in the game and you aren't going by recorded history, unless you're going by the false Golda Meir propaganda. But really, you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself at this point. You are expressing a hardcore extremist Zionist position here, so you're not within even mainstream Israeli thought, and it's pretty pointless to discuss this with a fact-denier. Good day, sir.

corntrollio says

You are expressing a hardcore extremist Zionist position here, so you're not within even mainstream Israeli thought, and it's pretty pointless to discuss this with a fact-denier.

They way you tell someone is heavily invested in one side of a conflict is when they think everyone who doesn't agree with them must be on the other side.

If you think I'm a hardcore extremist Zionist, you are crazy. The other side accuses me of being a pro-Palestinian extremist. I cannot be both. In reality I'm neither.

In my response to you I've stated explicitly that
1. Israel should be moved out of the area.
2. A Palestinian state, or several, should be created.

How the fuck did you get "hardcore extremist Zionist" out of that? The only answer is that you are an extremist, for only an extremist would see someone in the center as being the opposite extreme.

And this reinforces my point that both sides are wrong and won't get along together. They absolutely hate each other as people on both sides of this debate demonstrate clearly. This is why a two-state in the same area solution will fail. The two spoiled fighting children need to be physically separated. The fact that you attacked me, a potential ally of your cause, proves this.

Dan8267 says

The fact that you attacked me, a potential ally of your cause, proves this.

I don't particularly have a cause, actually, but thanks for trying. If I were to be pressed, I'd suggest that some sort of two-state solution might be workable, rather than the current apartheid, if you get the right people at the table. That's probably not going to happen with Israel's current government which seems to encourage settlements, and previous leaders failed their people when there were viable talks had.

Again, asserting that there is no such thing as Palestine or a Palestinian people is absolute nonsense, regardless of what side you're on. I'm suggesting that's a hardcore extremist Zionist position, which it is. I haven't commented on the rest and I'm not sure how you'd determine you're an ally to my non-existent cause when I haven't even stated what my cause is.

corntrollio says

I'm suggesting that's a hardcore extremist Zionist position

How the fuck can a hardcore atheist be a hardcore extremist Zionist?

Isn't the belief in a god, in fact a particular god, a prerequisite for being in the nonsensical concept of a "holy land"?

This discussion is proof that religion, all religion, is poison.

As for your belief that their is a Palestinian history that extends prior to the 20th century, provide me proof -- and no, the Bible doesn't count -- and I'll gladly accept it. All the history I've read from reasonable sources say otherwise and I'm not going to just take your word for it because you are emotionally attached to that belief. I demand evidence.

Both the Palestine and the Israel of today are not the same as those in the Bronze Age. That's just a ridiculous statement. The Israel of today is a completely different and new nation-state founded by modern people. The Palestine proposed state would be a completely different and new nation-state founded by modern people. Giving X the same name as Y does not make X equal Y. That's a lie.

Hell, the modern Olympics are not the same institution as the ancient Greek Olympics. A corporation just decided to trademark the term to market their profit-making venture as being related to the ancient Olympic games. They aren't. And quite frankly, that greedy corporation should not have a trademark on a term from antiquity.

The whole Israel / Palestine thing is just as much marketing bullshit.

Again, give me evidence, not your opinion, if you think this is wrong. I want to see a detailed time line of this culture and an explanation of why all the counter-evidence I posted is wrong.

I don't give two flying fucks what story is the truth; I only care that the truth is acknowledge what-the-fuck-ever it happens to be. Get that through your head before you respond. And if you still think I'm playing for the other team, don't bother responding. I routing against both teams at this point.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and kill every god and prophet that ever existed -- playing wack-a-mole if necessary -- as it would save countless other lives.

Dan8267 says

I repeat: I have no objection to a Palestinian state.

neither did the Israelis, that's why they created Gaza. Unforuntely the first thing the Gazans did when they got their independence was 1) destroy whatever useful structures remained from the Israelis(greenhouses) 2) proceeded to build tunnels and launch rockets.

Gary's understanding of the conflict verges on criminally insane.

Dan8267 says

Americans, like all people, can trace their ancestry to Africa.

This is my favorite comment in the whole thread. It applies equally to the religious groups fighting over their supposed "holy land," and the American Indians, and the Russian separatists in Ukraine, everybody. Tell them all to go back to Africa, and let the Ugandans try to contend with every warring faction from everywhere.

Also, in response to the OP, violent crime probably rises and falls with the population: for example, where there are no people at all, I would guess there are probably few violent crimes. (On the other hand, it is difficult to know for certain; if one tree assaults another, and nobody hears it, will there be a police report?)

corntrollio says

So yes, there definitely are centuries-old people who have lived there.

I would love to meet these people. In my whole life, I have never met anyone older than one century. Imagine being able to ask somebody who has lived there for centuries, like a character out of Highlander, what was it really like back then, what did the food taste like, what card games did they play, what has changed since, what has been gained and what has been lost. I would have questions for years.

From Wikipedia,

"The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the entire area between Phoenicia and Egypt was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece.[6] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly defining the region, which included the Judean mountains and the Jordan Rift Valley.[7][8][9][10][11][12] Approximately a century later, Aristotle used a similar definition in Meteorology, writing "Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them," understood by scholars to be a reference to the Dead Sea.[13] Later writers such as Polemon and Pausanias also used the term to refer to the same region."