patrick.net

Peter P says

Robots.

That assumes cheap energy. And robots can't replace most minimal wage workers, since they don't spend all their time flipping burgers (but getting more bread rolls, wrapping sandwiches, sweeping the floor, counting cups, etc.)

Also, terrible for societal order. If you have no skin in the game, why bother?

Immense pressure evens out society somewhat. Rich people cowed into concessions to maintain social order. Incredible prosperity as the wealth creators are actually paid a large portion of the wealth they create. The Richy Rich's grandchildren who don't remember the upheaval so the cycle repeats again as they fund scholars for dollars and progandizing plutocrat-friendly philosphers. Public forgets what it was like in grandad's day when there was little work at shitty pay. And the cycle repeats.

But I'm actually pretty optimistic. The best places in the world are Social Democracies, not Laissez-Faire Capitalist Oligarchies. There are more and more educated people, and the "I gotta prove I'm as tough as my WW2 Vet and Depression Surviving Dad by being a Self-Centered Asshole" Babyboomer types are not long for the earth.

The world is getting smaller and more and more Americans realize that Swedes and Germans don't live in rat-infested tenements lit only by a single bulb in a bare outlet and only get a band aid if they get sick. They're astonished to find people in Belgium getting a living wage to work at McD's. That people don't lose their homes over a bout of breast cancer.

Jazz, it is unfortunate you feel that wealth accumulation is immoral. But you just further highlighted my points on this thread.

thunderlips11 says

The best places in the world are Social Democracies, not Laissez-Faire Capitalist Oligarchies.

That is more myth than reality, though they appear real.

Europeans do not enjoy nearly the same kind of social mobility. If you aspire to be a career burger-flipper, perhaps this is the wrong place. However, if you want to build something great, there are few places on earth with the same opportunities. Carly Fiorina used to be a secretary.

I have a few German and Czech friends. They came here because the market is freer.

It is well accepted that arbitrage removes inefficiency in a market. Some may call it exploitation or betrayal but taking advantage of an economic reality is frequently the best way to improve it. This opportunistic spirit will drive us forward.

If you believe in evolution, then you must believe in survival of the fittest. Propping up the weak is not natural and only weakens the human race. In order for humans to flourish, we must allow evolutionary forces to work which likely means the strong will rule and the weak will either serve the strong or perish. It's as simple as that.

Peter P says

Poverty exists because of bad values. It is that simple.

Just out of curiosity, if everyone had the right values, just how wealthy could EVERYONE be ? I'm not kidding.

Could everyone own their own jet plane and their own island ? OR whatever material things they desire ?

Or is it that there would then have to be some new super duper improved values and attitude that separated the winners from the plain old "good values" losers ?

Who would do the slave labor ?

jazz music says

I met some Germans at a party that laughed like hell when we elected Schwarzenegger.

They explained that once they elected an Austrian and things didn't go too well for them.

Germans do have their own brand of humor. :-)

But Austrians remind me of The Sound of Music. So happy.

jazz music says

They also said where is the freedom here when you can't even go to a park or a beach and have a beer?

There are beer gardens here.

marcus says

Just out of curiosity, if everyone had the right values, just how wealthy could EVERYONE be ? I'm not kidding.

Right or wrong is relative. Your mileage may vary.

Peter P says

Europeans do not enjoy nearly the same kind of social mobility.

On the contrary, Europeans have higher social mobility.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Peter P says

Right or wrong is relative

Copout. You can't even see how naive and illogical your nonsense is.

You're right that there are dysfunctional people, and people who play the victim, and there are lazy people. And these characteristics will likely contribute to these individual people being way poorer than they would otherwise be under our system.

But are these character flaws or whatever you want to call them the reason for poverty ?

Hell no. That's about as true as saying that many poor people are poor because they aren't narcissistic or psychopathic enough.

Only a complete idiot would make the claim you do above. I hope you're just trolling, and aren't really that stupid.

Peter P says

Poverty exists because of bad values. It is that simple.

I think unfortunately you give the poor too much credit.

A lot of them are probably poor because of their low IQs.

But you can blame people for bad values but not for being dumb.

debyne says

Propping up the weak is not natural and only weakens the human race.

God is dead.
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Maybe not quite... but God is a Darwinist... otherwise there will be pandas everywhere.

Heraclitusstudent says

On the contrary, Europeans have higher social mobility.

Nah. A better measure would be the number of billionaires who were born in working-class or middle-class families.

Heraclitusstudent says

A lot of them are probably poor because of their low IQs.

Intelligence is a measure invented by sell-proclaimed "intelligent" people to make themselves feel better.

You don't need to be a genius to make it. In fact, most "smart" people I know have serious social handicaps.

marcus says

That's about as true as saying that many poor people are poor because they aren't narcissistic or psychopathic enough.

That's just another way to say that wealth is a sin (or a mental illness).

If Europeans have higher social mobility, where are their Larry Page and Larry Ellison?

UK has Richard Branson and James Dyson, but the kingdom is not exactly in continental Europe and it has a different philosophy.

Why are people obsessed with low-order statistics like averages? Excellence is best measured by the fat-tail.

I blame blacks, since most of them are too fucking lazy to get a job.

zzyzzx says

I blame blacks, since most of them are too fucking lazy to get a job.

They need the extra time to go around nailing all our wives while we're busy at work.

Peter P says

marcus says

That's about as true as saying that many poor people are poor because they aren't narcissistic or psychopathic enough.

That's just another way to say that wealth is a sin (or a mental illness).

Did you miss that I was implying that it's generally false, just like your thesis above ? (but also true for many individual cases)

marcus says

Peter P says

marcus says

That's about as true as saying that many poor people are poor because they aren't narcissistic or psychopathic enough.

That's just another way to say that wealth is a sin (or a mental illness).

Did you miss that I was implying that it's generally false, just like your thesis above ? (but also true for many individual cases)

No, I did not miss that. Yes, these are character flaws at the group level in a negative feedback loop.

My dear sir, the solution to the poverty problem is to bleed them aggressively to cure them of their sanguine temperment followed by a dozen lashes over a barrel.

Bleeding and Discipline. These are things the lower classes need, sir. Not kindness and frippery: Spare the rod and spoil the child, I say.

Laziness is not necessarily bad. Sometimes it incentivizes the creation of new technologies.

Choosing to believe that wealth is evil, on the other hand, stops you from improving.

The solution to the poverty problem is to emphasize the piety of wealth.

If people want to live better, they must have the right belief systems. It is no accident that Calvinists and Reform Jews tend to be wealthier.

jazz music says

debyne says

survival of the fittest.

You are welcome to your opinion, you should realize that doctrine of "survival of the fittest" favors uninjured adult male in prime condition, age and health, and low long do you think you can fill those shoes before you go running off to your mommy? Also this doctrine is central to satanism. So never claim to be any sort of Christian. Another key tenant is "do what thou wilt." So um knock yourself out there tarzan and good luck to you. You may find out that the fittest was 3rd generation heir to a billion dollars worth of war bucks.

Luck has nothing to do with it. I never said there were no rules and that the strong could hurt, rob or inflict suffering upon the weak...that's probably more of what you're referring to with regard to your Satanic religion. I'm saying that government's role is to protect individual rights and freedoms, and then let the strong succeed and the weak fail...it's the natural order of things and you can't stop it no matter how hard you pray.

debyne says

Luck has nothing to do with it.

Luck has everything to do with it. However, luck is simply the art of taking chances. It can be mastered.

Genghis Khan was dealt a terrible hand, yet he went on to become the greatest emperor ever lived. All it took was a opportunistic and determined spirit.

Peter P says

The majority of poor people think wealth is a sin.

Nobody believes that.

What people believe is that acquiring wealth by destroying other people is a sin, getting rich by stealing (whether legally or not) wealth from masses of other people is a sin, making vast sums of money by destroying livelihoods and the environment is a sin.

Wealth should be obtained through one's productivity, not by exploiting others and wrecking the Earth.

Do you disagree?

Peter P says

Poverty exists because of bad values.

Yes, precisely the value that it's good to exploit other people.

The opulent lifestyle of the top 0.1% can only exist if there are multitudes of poor to do all the disgusting, difficult, and dangerous work. Kill off the bottom 99.9% and the top 0.1%'s lifestyle will come crumbing down.

This is why the laws and infrastructure of our society are designed to keep masses of people in poverty.

debyne says

Luck has nothing to do with it.

It does not matter what subject matter you are discussing, luck always plays a part in it. Our species wouldn't even exist if not for a very long series of lucky accidents including the one where an asteroid killed off all the dinosaurs. You, personally, would not exist if your father had been sick the day he met your mother and as a result didn't meet her. Everyone's very existence is largely due to luck, like it or not.

Dan8267 says

What people believe is that acquiring wealth by destroying other people is a sin, getting rich by stealing (whether legally or not) wealth from masses of other people is a sin, making vast sums of money by destroying livelihoods and the environment is a sin.

Wealth should be obtained through one's productivity, not by exploiting others and wrecking the Earth.

Do you disagree?

There is a saying, everyone else must fail. It served Genghis Khan (and perhaps Larry Ellison) very well. I am still reflecting on this.

Exploitation is a type of productivity, as a form of arbitrage against inefficiency.

Peter P says

If Europeans have higher social mobility, where are their Larry Page and Larry Ellison?

You mean rich people? if you take France as example:
Bouygues, Dassault, Lagardère, Bettencourt etc... Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Heraclitusstudent says

You mean rich people? if you take France as example

You just proved my point. How many them started from nothing? How many of them inherited a fine company?

In Europe, wealth-building is a multi-generation effort. In America, one can go from zero to a billion in a few years. This is the mobility I am talking about.

I love those Frenchmen you mentioned. LV bags, Falcon business jets. Finest products in the world.

Peter P says

How many them started from nothing? How many of them inherited a fine company?

All of these companies were started from nothing and became leaders in 1 generation.

An excessively democratic society will invariably degenerate into a nihilistic hell described by Nietzsche.

Most of the great things in continental Europe were built when they still valued excellence.

Peter P says

In America, one can go from zero to a billion in a few years.

If you're talking of people like Suckerberg: he went from rich kid in an expensive school to an inflated bubble company, while 80% of the population is stuck with no horizon.
Great example.

Heraclitusstudent says

All of these companies were started from nothing and became leaders in 1 generation.

I guess they used to respect capitalism.

Heraclitusstudent says

If you're talking of people like Suckerberg: he went from rich kid in an expensive school to an inflated bubble company, while 80% of the population is stuck with no horizon.

I am not a fan, but he certainly took the opportunity. Unlike those who believe doing the same work will somehow make them richer. This is the greatest divide between winners and whiners.

Peter P says

This is the greatest divide between winners and whiners.

This is a divide between people with the education baggage to create Facebook, and people who can barely read and add, and don't see any other path than flipping burgers.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is a divide between people with the education baggage to create Facebook, and people who can barely read and add, and don't see any other path than flipping burgers.

Education is overrated. Most people with a computer science degree cannot even write code.

Public education provides more than enough skills for the curious to seek knowledge in the public domain. The lack of drive and/or curiosity is a different matter. But people cannot succeed if they think it is wrong to do better.

Peter P says

Education is overrated. Most people with a computer science degree cannot even write code.

Education is degrees are overrated. Most people with a computer science degree cannot even write code.

Dan8267 says

It does not matter what subject matter you are discussing, luck always plays a part in it. Our species wouldn't even exist if not for a very long series of lucky accidents including the one where an asteroid killed off all the dinosaurs. You, personally, would not exist if your father had been sick the day he met your mother and as a result didn't meet her. Everyone's very existence is largely due to luck, like it or not.

Why focus on something so meaningless? No luck, some luck, all luck...doesn't matter. The principles I mentioned remain the same.