patrick.net

indigenous says

The diff is that train wrecks in the free market are not perpetuated into perpetuity .

How fiercely are airlines competing over offering the largest seat in Economy class?

indigenous says

They will always hunt down a Red Herring like the Koch Brothers to explain how big evil business exploits without any redeeming qualities, and government always helps no matter how much they grow or increase taxes.

thunderlips11 says

How fiercely are airlines competing over offering the largest seat in Economy class?

Very much so, at least in first, business, and premium economy. Most people want rock bottom fare and they are responding too.

Peter P says

Very much so, at least in first, business, and premium economy. Most people want rock bottom fare and they are responding too.

Not what I asked. And some people are willing to pay a few bucks more for a few more inches of legroom.

So, given the number of airlines, which ones are trying to pick up the people who want larger seats at a slightly higher price?

After all, markets are perfectly competitive, no?

That would be counterproductive. Choice is a good thing. You can usually pay a bit more for a more legroom.

United has Economy Plus. Virgin America has Main Cabin Select.

Some airlines like Cathay and BA have a real premium economy cabin with wider seats and more legroom.

Again, not what I asked.

Which airline runs against it's competition on the fact that their unadulterated, regular economy seating is larger than their competitors at least on some flights?

This is like saying because you can buy a BMW, it doesn't matter if there is no seat comfort competition among lower priced car makes and models.

The point is there is no competition.

If the free market truly existed in America, you'd be able to buy pot legally on every street corner. The market has spoken about marijuana. The fact that it's been illegal for the past 80 years proves that there is no free market in the U.S. All markets are controlled by government or the corporations they delegate the power to.

thunderlips11 says

Again, not what I asked.

Which airline runs against it's competition over their unadulterated, regular economy seating is larger than their competitors?

This is like saying because you can buy a BMW, it doesn't matter if there is no seat comfort competition among lower priced car makes and models.

The point is there is no competition.

As a passenger, why should you care? Just pretend that your seat is a regular economy seat.

Peter P says

As a passenger, why should you care? Just pretend that your seat is a regular economy seat.

There is plenty of demand for people to spend an extra $30-50 on a seat where you can lower the tray and not have your knees bashed, laptop use prohibited, and get a close up tour of the bald spot of the schmuck in front of you.

According to seat guru, premium economy is almost double the price of economy and generally not offered by US carriers and primarily for international flights. That's not paying a little extra for what used to be economy seats on a domestic flight.

IIRC United charges about $30-$50 for a few more inches of legroom. Delta has a similar product called Economy Comfort. I always opt for these seats whenever they are available.

Who still uses a laptop? Just bring along a tablet. It is must more space efficient and less awkward to use.

thunderlips11 says

How fiercely are airlines competing over offering the largest seat in Economy class?

"In the early 60s practically none of us could take up the offer to "glide, starry-eyed" on an aircraft with anybody in those days. More than 80 percent of the country had never once been on an airplane. There was a simple reason. Flying was absurdly expensive."

If you want a two-word answer to why airfares have dropped so much since the 1970s, it's this: Deregulation worked.

And air travel has never been safer.

But you want to whine about seat size?

thunderlips11 says

Which airline runs against it's competition on the fact that their unadulterated, regular economy seating is larger than their competitors at least on some flights?

From roomy to roomier
Now you can get even more comfortable with JetBlue in our Even More Space seats, which give you additional room to stretch out and relax, plus early boarding and early access to overhead bins. When you purchase an Even More Space seat you'll also receive Even More Speed (expedited security), which is available in select cities.

thunderlips11 says

There is plenty of demand for people to spend an extra $30-50 on a seat where you can lower the tray and not have your knees bashed, laptop use prohibited, and get a close up tour of the bald spot of the schmuck in front of you.

It will happen guaranteed.

Also take notice that the middle class is getting it's ass kicked.

Dan8267 says

If the free market truly existed in America, you'd be able to buy pot legally on every street corner. The market has spoken about marijuana. The fact that it's been illegal for the past 80 years proves that there is no free market in the U.S. All markets are controlled by government or the corporations they delegate the power to.

That there is Libertarian talk, be careful what you say lefty

indigenous says

thunderlips11 says

There is plenty of demand for people to spend an extra $30-50 on a seat where you can lower the tray and not have your knees bashed, laptop use prohibited, and get a close up tour of the bald spot of the schmuck in front of you.

It will happen guaranteed.

As I have said, it is already happening. There are domestic extra-legroom products for $30-$50 extra.

Peter P says

As I have said, it is already happening. There are domestic extra-legroom products for $30-$50 extra.

There you go Thunderlips loses this round. Never question the free market...

marcus says

"If everyone were responsible, honest and worked hard, there would be FAR less poverty than we have today."

I disagree.

I see your point about the jobs piece, but I do think we'd have more jobs if people were more educated and driven, thereby innovating more, starting up more companies and ideas, and building the labor supply. Also, by the word "responsible" I would include poor people not having kids they can't afford and not spending beyond their means...wouldn't it help our poverty situation significantly if people had less kids and just supported themselves?

debyne says

I see your point about the jobs piece, but I do think we'd have more jobs if people were more educated and driven, thereby innovating more, starting up more companies and ideas, and building the labor supply. Also, by the word "responsible" I would include poor people not having kids they can't afford and not spending beyond their means...wouldn't it help our poverty situation significantly if people had less kids and just supported themselves?

Is this buzz-phrase bingo?

"building the labor supply"
"innovating more"

That's +20 Meaningless Points.

American Society doesn't value education or "building the labor supply". Ensuring the peasants are properly indebted and just smart enough to shine your shoes and your bunghole is what makes keeps America ON TOP!

Vicente says

American Society doesn't value education or "building the labor supply". Ensuring the peasants are properly indebted and just smart enough to shine your shoes and your bunghole is what makes keeps America ON TOP!

Bitter much? You must be one of the "victims" needing a handout cuz you dicked around in school and got stuck with a shitty career. Too late Luther, too late.

marcus says

and btw, you do know his only goal here is random bullshitting and trolling, right ?

My goal here is not unlike that of everyone else, the emotional comfort of connection and attention.

Outside of high school debates, arguments are rarely judged on reason and objectivity. Pretty much everyone will stand by his conclusion at the end of the day. Forums like this are great because we can all find confirmations and rebuttals of refutations. Through selective cognition, we are all happy. :-)

But marcus, thanks for backing me up while I was out there trying to fix my crappy golf swing.

Entitlemented says

And only my ATT phone connected us to the other tribes. Its like having a handheld computer in my hand.

To be fair, you were lucky. All wireless networks have strengths and weaknesses, so all carriers just suck differently.

Vicente says

Ensuring the peasants are properly indebted

Yeah, but the peasants have a choice not to follow their fellow lemmings into debt-serfdom. In fact one could argue that they have the duty. Future generations could refuse to pay taxes in masses for the deficit spending brought on by their priors where they had no vote on. Can't jail a whole generation. Or they can simply refuse to consume beyond what's needed to survive. Not holding my breath, but the solutions are clearly out there.. ;)

Peter P says

Entitlemented says

And only my ATT phone connected us to the other tribes. Its like having a handheld computer in my hand.

To be fair, you were lucky. All wireless networks have strengths and weaknesses, so all carriers just suck differently.

Never looked back since I went with Republic wireless after Patrick posted a thread about it. Unlimited 3G for $25, $10 without data (still unlimited talk/text). Thanks, Patrick!

marcus says

It's smart. Some people really have a greater need for the extra room, so instead of randomly deciding who is up front, or taking volunteers to sit at the exit door, and be prepared to help out in the event of an emergency landing (where people live), they charge a small premium that people can pay for a little more comfort.

It is a no-brainer. Surprisingly, such seats are widely available. I thought they would be the first to be filled, but apparently many people don't even know of this.

Some airlines charge $50-$100 for an emergency row seat if you are physically qualified. This is an even better deal. The difference in legroom is dramatic. Imagine that on a 12-hour flight!

debyne says

marcus says

"If everyone were responsible, honest and worked hard, there would be FAR less poverty than we have today."

I disagree.

I see your point about the jobs piece, but I do think we'd have more jobs if people were more educated and driven, thereby innovating more, starting up more companies and ideas, and building the labor supply. Also, by the word "responsible" I would include poor people not having kids they can't afford and not spending beyond their means...wouldn't it help our poverty situation significantly if people had less kids and just supported themselves?

Marcus - does your lack of response to my question mean you that you agree?

mell says

Yeah, but the peasants have a choice not to follow their fellow lemmings into debt-serfdom.

Really? The average working person only has so much time to devote to ANYTHING of any depth. Job, friends, religion, family, kids, finance, politics, sports..... pretty soon you run out of hours in the day to sit and THINK about anything long-term.

I fundamentally disagree with original poster. Close relative just spent last 14 years giving his heart and soul to Coca Cola. Every time his coworkers went on vacation he'd cover for them. He kept handling MORE and MORE territory. Just before Labor Day he got notice he was terminated immediately and insurance would end at midnight the next day. Corporate America is a heartless bitch that will suck you dry.

Vicente says

mell says

Yeah, but the peasants have a choice not to follow their fellow lemmings into debt-serfdom.

Really? The average working person only has so much time to devote to ANYTHING of any depth. Job, friends, religion, family, kids, finance, politics, sports..... pretty soon you run out of hours in the day to sit and THINK about anything long-term.

I fundamentally disagree with original poster. Close relative just spent last 14 years giving his heart and soul to Coca Cola. Every time his coworkers went on vacation he'd cover for them. He kept handling MORE and MORE territory. Just before Labor Day he got notice he was terminated immediately and insurance would end at midnight the next day. Corporate America is a heartless bitch that will suck you dry.

Not disagreeing with your interpretation. Loyalty is not much valued anymore. on both sides. And it hurts both. But that has nothing to do with whether you prevent yourself from going into debt-serfdom or not. If you can't afford it, don't buy it or do it. You have a choice and your first maxime should be avoiding debt and saving capital, even in today's Fed fucked up ZIRP environment. If that means no kids then don't have any. If that means no house then don't buy one. If that means no smartphone for you and your family, then don't buy them. A good rule of thumb is never do any financing plans, as 99% of them screw you over by making you pay much more than if you had the money upfront under completely unfavorable conditions, termination fees etc. Avoid subscription/plan models at all cost whenever you can. Don't look to others belongings as a measurement for what's needed. Do not marry or partner with a woman that is not 100% on board with this, which pretty much weeds out most. Skip the wedding if you get married, use the 50K saved for bad economic times in the family. Do not buy diamond rings, complete waste of money/scam. Only buy used cars, barter if you can. Never spend more than $50 on a piece of clothing. I'm sure there's a whole book on this out there but it's probably not very popular. Anybody can do it, no exceptions (given they are healthy of course).

mell - great advice

Vicente says

I fundamentally disagree with original poster. Close relative just spent last 14 years giving his heart and soul to Coca Cola. Every time his coworkers went on vacation he'd cover for them. He kept handling MORE and MORE territory. Just before Labor Day he got notice he was terminated immediately and insurance would end at midnight the next day. Corporate America is a heartless bitch that will suck you dry.

"Bad values" are not necessarily despicable. They are just incompatible with success.

That story is unfortunate. However, the modern workplace demands soft skills.

If you cover for a coworker, you are not doing the company a favor. You are doing that coworker a favor. The thing with favors though, they have a shelf life, so you must call in the favor at an opportune time or it will expire. Sometimes, you should take vacation just to let your importance be felt. Before taking on new responsibility, you should use the opportunity to demand additional compensation. Otherwise, you are showing weakness.

Some may call the modern workplace a race to the bottom. You may as well try to win that race.

indigenous says

That there is Libertarian talk, be careful what you say lefty

Although you are a right-wing nutjob, I'm not a lefty. I have frequently repeated the distinction between liberalism and leftism and why we liberals often conflict with the left. You, like a typical conservative, simply choose never to listen.

indigenous says

There you go Thunderlips loses this round. Never question the free market...

Didn't lose. Name one airline that competes on having larger economy seats. IE in general. "Our seats are 2 inches wider with 2 inches more legroom". NOT charging people with bad knees extra to sit in the exit row - the last place they ought to be in an emergency (due to Deep Captured FAA)

Here's an example: Both Jiff and Store Brand are both peanut butters. One is slightly more expensive than the other. But you don't have to pay double the store brand for Whole Foods Daisy-pure Dance-in-Sunflowers Peanut Butter.

(Oh yes, technically you're not supposed to sit there with medical conditions, but chances are, most of the people paying extra do have medical conditions where they must have bigger seats but can't afford First Class).

Dan8267 says

Although you are a right-wing nutjob

Right wing on finance, the rest is your conjecture...Dan8267 says

You, like a typical conservative, simply choose never to listen.

Back at ya

thunderlips11 says

Didn't lose. Name one airline that competes on having larger economy

Ok then how should this be regulated into fairness?

indigenous says

Ok then how should this be regulated into fairness?

Ask the AMA and get an opinion about the minimum seat requirements to prevent DVT. Which people have died from. The numbers are most certainly higher than advertising because like a head injury, it can kill you hours later while you feel fine in the interim. And on most airline economy seats, an average male can neither stand in front of his seat, nor is there a standing areas anymore, they've been removed. I've been told to sit down when standing on an international AA flight just trying to move around a bit.

Also, Airlines are heavily, heavily, heavily government subsidized. From the airframe to the airport. Including special treatment for First Class, even though they pay the same security fee as economy.

indigenous says

Right wing on finance

The right wing is hardly financially conservative. The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Dan8267 says

The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Yep, and their propensity to cut taxes, then borrow and spend.

Dan8267 says

The right wing is hardly financially conservative. The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Not with Libertarians

The true cause of poverty? The "wealth/job creators" still don't have a big enough piece of the pie.

thunderlips11 says

Ask the AMA and get an opinion about the minimum seat requirements to prevent DVT.

Would it not be more effective to have the AMA talk to the airlines about this problem? I would think they would be happy to market this to the public and their new remodeled airplanes.

BTW do you pee sitting down?

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

The right wing is hardly financially conservative. The warfare budget unequivocally disproves that claim.

Not with Libertarians

That's not an argument.

indigenous says

Would it not be more effective to have the AMA talk to the airlines about this problem?

No. As Curious talked about in another thread, Monsanto, ADM, and Lowe's Entertainment don't give a fuck that HFCS causes obesity, heart disease, and diabetes. They want to sell more HFCS; the airline wants more money per flight.